I surely hope so....I know I can't keep anything.Me too, but also a little worried. I think she keeps files on all of us
Karma - who/what is the judge?
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Lunitik
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Karma simply means "action", it basically just says that what you do has ramifications. Who is the judge? Why does there need to be one? It is as much a law of reality as gravity, we have called it the law of relativity in science but have not correlated it to the human condition.
IowaGuy
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Wil, I like your attitude. This is similar to how I perceive our interconnected nature; i.e. good things happen to good people, 6 degrees of separation, etc.
"When one tugs at a single thing in nature, he finds it attached to the rest of the world."
- John Muir (1838-1914)
Does your karmic attitude apply to other sentient beings and our environment as well? i.e. when you eat "industrial" meat does it unleash the karmic wrecking ball due to its impact on our environment? Your comment on creating your future through your present reminds me of environmentalist Wendell Berry's quote: "How we eat determines how the Earth is used."
IowaGuy
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I agree there doesn't have to be a judge unless one ties it into the traditional Buddhist teaching of literal rebirth. A good/bad rebirth seems to require some sort of judging, IMHO...
How can one have a "favorable" rebirth or "unfavorable" rebirth, with no deity to judge one's "action" or karma in this lifetime? Why wouldn't rebirth just be neutral if there is indeed no judge? i.e. how could a Buddhist be advancing towards enlightenment in the next lifetime with no eternal soul/consciousness and nothing to judge his/her actions in this lifetime?
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Lunitik
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Why is it necessary for there to be a judge after physical death for you? The nature of the soul is that your subtle being has convinced itself it is a distinct entity. This entity exists still after physical death, and because it has clung to the earth it will find a new womb. This entity is still subject to the same laws as the physical body though, it will still go towards a particular womb based on cause and effect.
The enlightened man is merely one that has realized the soul itself is false, that we are not distinct at all. This is why Buddha has said the soul is not real, why the afterlife is not real. The enlightened man has remembered his true nature and done away with the maya of distinction.
--- Remember, even science is realizing matter is merely dense energy. When we die, it is only that the energy comprising us is undergoing a change. It is that energy, though, which collects what we think of as karma. ---
I'm sure I should stop using analogies.
I run a 100m. It takes me 20 seconds.
I spend a year training as hard as I can - gym, weights, good diet, track...
Now when I run 100m it takes me 15 seconds.
I have made progress through my efforts. If there is no form of judge have I not run faster by 5 seconds?
@IG
OK Mr Westerner!
I'm not sure I can prove a negative can I?
As a good Westerner, steeped in the joys of the scientific method, if an assertion is made (Buddhist kamma requires some form of judge) on whose shoulders does the onus lie for the confirmation of the assertion - the person making the assertion or with others?
If I said that Bleak House (a very long novel) by Charles Dickens contained the phrase 'Internet Service Provider' would you feel obliged to read it to try to demonstrate it was not, or would you simply ask me to provide the evidence?
Over to you and your belief that Buddhist kamma involves a judge...
OK Mr Westerner!
I'm not sure I can prove a negative can I?
As a good Westerner, steeped in the joys of the scientific method, if an assertion is made (Buddhist kamma requires some form of judge) on whose shoulders does the onus lie for the confirmation of the assertion - the person making the assertion or with others?
If I said that Bleak House (a very long novel) by Charles Dickens contained the phrase 'Internet Service Provider' would you feel obliged to read it to try to demonstrate it was not, or would you simply ask me to provide the evidence?
Over to you and your belief that Buddhist kamma involves a judge...
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Lunitik
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can't delete again... ugh
Interesting. I did quit industrial meat long ago, not for metaphyscical karmic reasons but for what I think could be called physical Karmic reasons (I didn't refer to that terminolgy 25 years ago). It was the hormones and antibiotics, and feed lots, and disease....I simply decided to no longer eat that or participate in the promotion of that activity, thinking I really didn't need that stuff in my system.
You can delete a post by editing a post. (edit it to nothing if you wish or replace it) however editing has a limited lifespan. We hope our posters consider their responses, but do provide that editing time to replace mistakes. After that, the standard methodology is to clarify your previous post with a later one...respond to yourself if required, although doing this frequently makes folks scratch their heads.
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Lunitik
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It is rather frustrating how things are currently set up, for instance, here I have perceived something in another persons reply but seen that my comment could create a debate about that perception and cause the thread to meander off course. In other cases, I will write something that makes sense to me but then consider how it may be misconstrued and wish to clarify further or maybe I just have more to add but don't want to create a separation between the points.
It is very strange, I guess it is to save bandwidth? I was not aware that empty posts are removed though, thank you. The internet isn't a democracy, admin has the right to decide whatsoever he pleases for his own configurations, it is just rather puzzling especially considering the delicacy of the topics discussed here (ie, the very nature of existence and the ramifications thereof, people literally define themselves by these topics so it is easy to offend without realizing)
There is an issue with deleting posts that have been commented on...and an issue of integrity... If you wish to clarify, simply respond to your post and indicate what you meant to say or how it might be misconstrued.
Seemingly this discussion is on topic. The karma contained in your post may have an affect on how you are perceived....and who judges? We all do, and often we judge our posts the stongest eh?
IowaGuy
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Yes you have made progress, and no judge is needed. But would you expect this progress to carry over into a future rebirth?
Why would a Buddhist think spiritual "progress" would carry over into the next rebirth without some kind of divine help/intervention?
If progress is to carry over into a future rebirth, it seems to me there needs to be some sort of deity or other karmic judge. Otherwise, energy is just transfered back into the universe when we die. As energy is neutral, future rebirths of this energy would therefore just be random and neutral. Not "favorable" or "unfavorable." And not leading down any path of future enlightenment.
If one believes in karma/enlightenment, but not in a deity or Ultimate Judge of karma; then it seems to me enlightenment must be achieved in a single lifetime.
Why would there need to be a judge....why do you think you can't pick up where you left off?
You left the game....you come back into the game with the same batting average.
Why would a Buddhist think spiritual "progress" would carry over into the next rebirth without some kind of divine help/intervention?
- Well I don't believe in literal rebirth. But this is going round in circles. I've asked you to provide evidence of divine help from the Pali canon that you seem to think should be there. I am saying it is not, it is you assertion, the onus is on your good self to show where the Buddha taught karma involved divine help. You may reject Buddhist teaching, you may reject any form of rebirth notion but you cannot ascribe to it your own opinion (with no evidence, just the idea it 'should' be there).
- Well I don't believe in literal rebirth. But this is going round in circles. I've asked you to provide evidence of divine help from the Pali canon that you seem to think should be there. I am saying it is not, it is you assertion, the onus is on your good self to show where the Buddha taught karma involved divine help. You may reject Buddhist teaching, you may reject any form of rebirth notion but you cannot ascribe to it your own opinion (with no evidence, just the idea it 'should' be there).
IowaGuy
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But is that not what many Buddhists expect from their spiritual training and subsequent progress?
A lifetime of meditation, mental training, ascetic lifestyle, etc.
Don't they expect that progress to carry over to future rebirths?
And how could that possibly happen if there is no deity or cosmic judge of the positive karma they have generated in their lifetime?
At what point did we leave the universe?
Well one does not follow from the other, since there is no judging deity in the Buddhadharma, but 'enlightenment' is a whole other topic; what it means, whether it's an appropriate word, whether it is achieved, if so then how, how many lifetimes...
I think only monks follow an 'ascetic lifestyle'?
Some Buddhists do of course believe in future rebirths.
And yet according to the Pali canon, no judge is needed...
seattlegal
Mercuræn Buddhist
I'm beginning to wonder if you have a fairly unique form of OCD
Compassion for all beings--even though who take it upon themselves to work out the precise outworkings of karma!
{I know I'd prolly be mightily vexed if that was my job! Could you imagine all the complaints that would be connected to this grim task? How much karma would handing out "karmic retribution" generate? Not to mention all the complaints regarding said karmic judgement! It would just snowball!}