Karma - who/what is the judge?

[Lunitik]

Why would a Buddhist think spiritual "progress" would carry over into the next rebirth without some kind of divine help/intervention?

Because that is what the Dhammapada tells them, same reason you think some divine intervention is necessary: your own beliefs insist there is something in control.

If progress is to carry over into a future rebirth, it seems to me there needs to be some sort of deity or other karmic judge. Otherwise, energy is just transfered back into the universe when we die. As energy is neutral, future rebirths of this energy would therefore just be random and neutral. Not "favorable" or "unfavorable." And not leading down any path of future enlightenment.

Karma is the process of changing that neutrality, that is the whole point. Think of it like static electricity, every thought or action is a rubbing on either a positive or negative surface. A balloon will stick to the surface if you rub enough, this is quite like karma in that we start identifying with this entity we call ego. Buddha's whole teachings and practice centers around realizing this identification is delusional.

Enlightenment is the result of realizing the stupidity of your projections and perceptions, it is a totally non-identifying state.

If one believes in karma/enlightenment, but not in a deity or Ultimate Judge of karma; then it seems to me enlightenment must be achieved in a single lifetime.

It is achieved in a single moment, but it takes a long time to get sick of the stupidity of identification. When this state is achieved, you realize you cannot die and were never born - you are a part of the whole, the one being.

You seem to have some strange ideas about Buddhism, I hope this is helpful to clear up some things

 

[Bhaktajan II]

Buddha's whole teachings and practice centers around realizing this identification is delusional.

Since God is in the details, I amend this statement:

Buddha's whole teachings and practice centers around realizing this identification is (is not as "delusional") but, "temporary" aka, transcient.

 

[Lunitik]

Since God is in the details, I amend this statement:

Buddha's whole teachings and practice centers around realizing this identification is (is not as "delusional") but, "temporary" aka, transcient.

Yes, the only constant is what you know as the void of Brahman. Karma, of course, is also transient - the nature of nirvana/moksha is that you no longer incur karma. Karma is a really simple concept: cause and effect. It is the nature of your energy which attracts certain circumstances - either positive or negative. This can be transcended, you can return to neutrality if you stop identifying with your karma.

Concepts as reincarnation create laziness... "well, I'll just do it next lifetime". Pursue freedom from the transient now, otherwise your suffering is just prolonged. All walks of life incur the same sorts of ups and downs, it is just that we all have grass-is-greener-itis so we think the whole setup is unfair. Your next life will not be better, just different, but humans enjoy day dreaming about what could be one day. We have forgotten our nature and should return to it, but many insist on functioning in mind so they continue the endless cycle.

 

[Bhaktajan II]

Concepts as reincarnation create laziness... "well, I'll just do it next lifetime".

This is TOTALY INCORRECT presumption for all parties that state this.

No such thing. This is false information.

This is a conflation of the notion of "time" and freewill.

This implies direct control and pre-planning and the options to chose where and when and how one dies and further, the assumption that one's desires overrides the total accounting of one's Karmic acts & involvement. It implies that a common Human designs the future birth based on knowledge that has no education of such events.

A obese person is obese due to "Lust" of the Tongue variety ---does the obese person put off what can/couldda/wouldda/shouldda till "A FUTURE LIFE---???".

Where is such a thing as, "well, I'll just do it next lifetime" written in scripture?

There are such "Lusts" for each of the 5-Senses ---and many sub-form varieties of Sense-gratification.

Karma doesn't recognise the receipient's preferences.

 

[Lunitik]

This is TOTALY INCORRECT presumption for all parties that state this.

No such thing. This is false information.

This is a conflation of the notion of "time" and freewill.

This implies direct control and pre-planning and the options to chose where and when and how one dies and further, the assumption that one's desires overrides the total accounting of one's Karmic acts & involvement. It implies that a common Human designs the future birth based on knowledge that has no education of such events.

A obese person is obese due to "Lust" of the Tongue variety ---does the obese person put off what can/couldda/wouldda/shouldda till "A FUTURE LIFE---???".

Where is such a thing as, "well, I'll just do it next lifetime" written in scripture?

There are such "Lusts" for each of the 5-Senses ---and many sub-form varieties of Sense-gratification.

Karma doesn't recognise the receipient's preferences.

You have incorrectly deciphered my words, allow me to elaborate:

You are seeking at this time, if it is utterly out of your control why have you bothered to devote so much time to learning your faiths material? The point of seeking is to increase your receptivity, and the point of meditation is to increase your capacity. This is important, capacity allows you to receive more and so you go on growing spiritually.

What must be understood is that it is not your freewill, it is all planned, the choices you are making in this pursuit are programmed already. Every indecision you experience has already been decided, but this is how the ego becomes stronger: it identifies with those decisions.

You are reading this, so existence wants you to understand this. You are deciding to this point that it is ok to continue pursuing logically and in a future life you will reach. You have highlighted the notion of time being false, yet you defend reincarnation. Neither yesterday nor tomorrow exist, but you are projecting so far into the future that it is going into future lives.

There is ONLY this very moment, change is constant and this creates the concept of time - it is a measure of recognizable change. I would suggest to you that you are supposed to receive this post and allow your intuition to guide you to the ultimate rather than allowing your mind to continue its distractions of acquiring knowledge and doubting whether it can happen to you this second.

Learning is not going to help, you are only acquiring more you will have to drop eventually. You already know all that you need know for your foundation towards the real journey: inward confirmation.

 

[IowaGuy]

I've asked you to provide evidence of divine help from the Pali canon that you seem to think should be there. I am saying it is not, it is you assertion, the onus is on your good self to show where the Buddha taught karma involved divine help. You may reject Buddhist teaching, you may reject any form of rebirth notion but you cannot ascribe to it your own opinion (with no evidence, just the idea it 'should' be there).

I agree there is no evidence of divine help in the Pali canon. Buddha never taught that karma involved divine help, as far as I can tell. But he did teach rebirth which ties into the idea of karma.

I don't reject all Buddhist teaching, in fact there are several Buddhist teachings that I agree with and try to apply to my daily life. I am trying to better understand some of the remaining Buddhist teachings that don't make sense to me, like literal rebirth.

I do reject the idea of literal rebirth (favorable or unfavorable) that is somehow tied to the results of our karma during this lifetime; and that this somehow magically takes place without any divine intervention and without an eternal soul. But it seems to me that many Westerners (yourself included) also reject the idea of literal rebirth. That's why I started this thread about karma/rebirth; to try to learn from others that have gone down this road to see if they have some insights that I could learn from...

I actually have no problem with the concept of rebirth/reincarnation; of our life energy being transfered into some other being upon our death. If you bury my dead carcass under an oak tree someday I'm sure some of the nutrients from my body will end up as acorns. But the idea that a favorable/unfavorable rebirth happens because of our karma, absent of some divine intervention, is not a very strong position, IMHO. Maybe that's why Hinduism tied rebirth to an eternal soul?

Some Buddhists do of course believe in future rebirths. And yet according to the Pali canon, no judge is needed...

Agreed that no judge is needed according to the Pali canon. And not needed for karma IMHO if one doesn't believe in rebirth.

I have yet to read a logical reason how favorable/unfavorable rebirth can occur with no cosmic judge. Karma, no judge needed. Rebirth, no judge needed. Favorable/unfavorable rebirth due to karma; judge is needed.

I don't personally believe in literal rebirth, nor deities; but am trying to better understand how others view these concepts. That's why I like this forum; instead of just reading an ancient scripture I can interact with my fellow mankind and learn how they have processed this information to see what insights I can gain from their experience...

 

[IowaGuy]

Because that is what the Dhammapada tells them, same reason you think some divine intervention is necessary: your own beliefs insist there is something in control.

I don't personally believe in deities or divine intervention. My personal beliefs lie more on the pantheist spectrum; "God" as nature/universe, etc.

What I am arguing in this thread is that the concept of favorable/unfavorable rebirth, due to karma, makes no sense if one doesn't also believe in divine intervention or an eternal soul. Otherwise, wouldn't rebirth just be random/neutral?

 

[IowaGuy]

You seem to have some strange ideas about Buddhism, I hope this is helpful to clear up some things

Well, I do have a thick skin, I don't take offense easy, and am not afraid to get into a debate, even if I'm not an expert in the topic.

So yes, I have a lot to learn about Buddhism, but am trying to expand my brain and keep an open mind I think a combination of reading texts on my own along with forum discussion with others is a very fast way to learn, IMHO. I do appreciate everyone's comments on this thread and look forward to continued discussion...

 

[Lunitik]

I don't personally believe in deities or divine intervention. My personal beliefs lie more on the pantheist spectrum; "God" as nature/universe, etc.

What I am arguing in this thread is that the concept of favorable/unfavorable rebirth, due to karma, makes no sense if one doesn't also believe in divine intervention or an eternal soul. Otherwise, wouldn't rebirth just be random/neutral?

If you slam into a more dense mass than yourself, you will have negative side effects. You may fall to the ground, can you choose where you land? Has the more dense mass chosen? It is the result of natural laws. If you are aware of the mass, you can avoid it and thus incur no ramifications.

All laws function on energy, what we perceive as objects are merely apposing forces which are more dense than ourselves. That energy is not affected by the process we observe and call death, it goes on reacting to that which it encounters. It can either act out of more and more awareness or go deeper into obliviousness. If you are still clinging to this physical life but are more aware than others you can choose your destination - this is a favorable rebirth.

Of course, such a person still is not aware of his own nature. The energy of the universe is consciousness, we say we are conscious when we awake from sleep, but we go on identifying with something other than our true nature - we utterly forget what we are, but we know we are something so we go on accumulating a false definition: ego. We can realize our nature as pure consciousness, it can be our experience, and this experience confirms pantheism - we are not separate, we are an expression only, the ego itself ensures density is maintained after physical death so we are born again.

 

[Lunitik]

Well, I do have a thick skin, I don't take offense easy, and am not afraid to get into a debate, even if I'm not an expert in the topic.

So yes, I have a lot to learn about Buddhism, but am trying to expand my brain and keep an open mind I think a combination of reading texts on my own along with forum discussion with others is a very fast way to learn, IMHO. I do appreciate everyone's comments on this thread and look forward to continued discussion...

This made me smile!

I do not agree myself with all Buddha has said, each faith has its jewels and its lumps of coal. The best advice I can give is to avoid identification with any single concept unless there is personal confirmation.

I would also suggest looking towards multiple streams of faith with an eye to synthesize what each is saying. I can personally vouch that each is pointing at the same moon, try to find the moon through all the clouds.

 

[Bhaktajan II]

You have incorrectly deciphered my words, allow me to elaborate:

Maybe you could re-cipher them . . . but you didn't.

You are seeking at this time, if it is utterly out of your control why have you bothered to devote so much time to learning your faiths material?

My peristalsis nad your peristalsis are out of our control ---but I always answer its call without question ---even without rasing my hand for permission.

The point of seeking is to increase your receptivity, and the point of meditation is to increase your capacity.


Seeking is for self-preservation and/or enjoyment.
Meditation is the homework that weeds out the lazy competetors.

This is important, capacity allows you to receive more and so you go on growing spiritually.

Along with making a respectable living, self-preservation and enjoyments galore.

What must be understood is that it is not your freewill, it is all planned, the choices you are making in this pursuit are programmed already.

"Fornication under consent of the King . . . by the light of the dashboard"?
or
"What ever the insurance company policy allows for"?

Every indecision you experience has already been decided, but this is how the ego becomes stronger: it identifies with those decisions.

Destiny exists side by side with random chance ---it's bloody complicated to explain. Like the pleasure of child birth. Like yin and yang complementing each other.

You are reading this, so existence wants you to understand this.

But my boss would have a contrary opinion.

You are deciding to this point that it is ok to continue pursuing logically and in a future life you will reach.

That future 'human' life time will be a long way off because of the long sign-up sheet., and because of all the micro karmic networks. IE: A good driver on a long journey must check the tires and transmission oil and the rear light fuse box ---not later, not now . . . but before setting out.

You have highlighted the notion of time being false, yet you defend reincarnation.

I said, "This is a conflation of the notion of "time" and freewill."
"Time is real" but it leaves and is replaced with the current flow ---time is temporary and transcient ---but time is real.
I know what is written as to the definition of "re-incarnation" of an individual soul's during the transmigration of the soul-life-force into a new birth-vessel. It is not a defense, its an insistence on citing proper references.

Neither yesterday nor tomorrow exist, but you are projecting so far into the future that it is going into future lives.

Both yesterday & tomorrow exist ---it's set in stone and recorded for posterity. We stand on the shoulders of our predecessors ---until vandals take it upon themselves to erase such benchmarks.

There is ONLY this very moment, change is constant and this creates the concept of time - it is a measure of recognizable change. I would suggest to you that you are supposed to receive this post and allow your intuition to guide you to the ultimate rather than allowing your mind to continue its distractions of acquiring knowledge and doubting whether it can happen to you this second.

"There is ONLY this very moment to change my overweight condition", said the obese person before eating another serving.

Time is not a concept nor the reason for bondage.
Lust [via all 5 sense organs] is the reason for bondage.

" I would suggest to you that you . . . allow your intuition to guide you . . . rather than . . . to continue its distractions of acquiring knowledge . . . ."

Oh geez, I bet you say this to all the sane (and insane) people you meet.

Learning is not going to help, you are only acquiring more you will have to drop eventually.

I can definitely work on un-learning ---if that is advantagous.

You already know all that you need know for your foundation towards the real journey: inward confirmation.

I have already gambled away the rent money on an intuition.

Maybe in a future life a person might submit themselves to the rules:

Expository essay Structure
A proper structure of an expository essay is a way to make it as effective as possible.

1. A narrow topic is presented
2. A thesis statement must express the main essence of the essay
3. The topic is developed through different opinions
4. The conclusion is made according to the summary of the presented above opinions

 

[Lunitik]

bhaktajan: do you not see in your reply how your ego has so attached to the acquisitions of your knowledge? You are highly scholarly, but this is the very roadblock, not something helpful. You are too much concerned with a particular train of thought, with a particular teacher, reality doesn't create carbon copies. Existence always creates uniqueness, your teacher has already been and found his own truth, you must pursue your own. Identifying with another persons teaching, attempting to emulate another as closely as possible only creates a lack of authenticity in yourself. Everything you think you know is utterly borrowed, without your teacher you are left where you started.

It is not impressive to me, I have a great sympathy for what I have seen of you on these forums. You want to prove you know more than anyone else, but you are so closed minded. I would enjoy discussing with you, but you are so sure you know better, it is so clear you have experienced nothing at all though. All of your effort is going to waste, this pretentiousness can only come from ego. Ego must be dropped, it must be killed, ego is the only barrier. Ego is the very nature of maya, all illusion is of ego.

 

[Bhaktajan II]

bhaktajan:
your ego has so attached to the acquisitions of your knowledge

this is not something helpful.

You are too much concerned with a particular teacher

you must pursue your own.

Identifying with a lack of authenticity in yourself.

Everything you think you know is utterly borrowed,

It is not impressive to me.

I have a sympathy for you on these forums.

You want to prove you know more than anyone else.

you are so closed minded.

it is so clear you have experienced nothing at all

All of your effort is going to waste.

this pretentiousness can only come from ego.

it must be killed

the only enemy.

the very nature of all illusion.

Oh now I get it you are a commedian.
Oh, I can't breath, my ribs are in pain . . . I just fell off the seat.

Ooops I got to go pay my taxes before they kill me.

Chant Hare Krishna and your life will be sublime!


the only Krishna Consciousness Movement peon you may have ever met,
Bhaktajan.

PS: I have been banned and censured for far less than what you pontificated to me.
Thank God you ain't no moderator.

 

[Lunitik]

Oh now I get it you are a commedian.
Oh, I can't breath, my ribs are in pain . . . I just fell off the seat.

Ooops I got to go pay my taxes before they kill me.

Chant Hare Krishna and your life will be sublime!


the only Krishna Consciousness Movement peon you may have ever met,
Bhaktajan.

PS: I have been banned and censured for far less than what you pontificated to me.
Thank God you ain't no moderator.

Why do you seek Krishna Consciousness?

Krishna has transcended his own consciousness, and you wish to take it over?

Seek the Ultimate Consciousness, dive into the void, do not bring mind in - just jump, be total.

This is the greatest lesson of Krishna: totality in everything - 1600 wives, reasoning war, yet such love, such delight, such sensitivity. He has taken the whole of reality and embraced it, none have been as complete. I love the man deeply, but I cannot be him, I must be myself... as we all must.

 

[Bhaktajan II]

Seek the Ultimate Consciousness, dive into the void, do not bring mind in - just jump.

You seem anxious for me, characterized by intrusive thoughts that produce uneasiness, apprehension, fear, or worry, by repetitive behaviors aimed at reducing an associated anxiety.

Thread Topic: Karma.

Forum Thread: Buddhism.

Bhaktajan's advise:

Stay on task.

PS: we are here to help. But you MUST ask for the help.
Do not wade in your own prickly heat ---seek fresh unmentionables.

And I love the attempt at drollness.

 

[Lunitik]

You seem anxious for me, characterized by intrusive thoughts that produce uneasiness, apprehension, fear, or worry, by repetitive behaviors aimed at reducing an associated anxiety.

Thread Topic: Karma.

Forum Thread: Buddhism.

Bhaktajan's advise:

Stay on task.

Buddha's last words were "be a light unto yourself".

His whole teaching is about experiencing for yourself, not clinging to him.

Mind is also where karma originates, in your intentions. Ego is a concept of mind that people have become totally identified with. You read your teacher, you read the Gita, and you think it is your knowledge now - you decide you are knowledgeable.

Only experience can provide a knowing, computers contain all the knowledge humans have but they cannot know it. What is the knower?

 

[Lunitik]

Why is this important, because if you can inquire into the nature of the doer, there is a great insight waiting for you. It will result in freedom from the cycles of birth and death, of karma. Buddha has said to venture into the origin of all thoughts, what is their nature? If they are not from you, what is observing them?

Knowledge is nothing but a thought you have accepted and clung to, with a difference: the thought didn't originate from you at all. You have brought it into yourself, you have claimed it as your own. This is not the purpose though, they are providing you a map but instead of going to the destination you have decided the map is enough to know it. They have provided devices and people go on taking them as a statement of fact, it as though they have utterly forgotten scripture is only a river leading to the ocean.

It is satisfying though, it provides answers you were looking for, it comforts people. If this person has already been to the ocean, it is perfectly ok to stay here at the river and collect water. Going to the ocean will take much effort, all comforts will have to be left behind - they cannot come with you, they will be too much of a burden. There is great risk, what if something happens on the way and you can't get back?

The mind enjoys these games, always there is an answer with the mind. The heart simply trusts, it is utterly accepting - it never doubts. Here's the kicker though: even when you reach the ocean, you have no answers - questions have simply disappeared. You will laugh hysterically when you realize existences joke.

 

[Snoopy]

@IG

'I don't reject all Buddhist teaching, in fact there are several Buddhist teachings that I agree with and try to apply to my daily life. I am trying to better understand some of the remaining Buddhist teachings that don't make sense to me, like literal rebirth.'

Literal rebirth doesn't make sense to me either. Perhaps it will one day.

'Favorable/unfavorable rebirth due to karma; judge is needed.'

Not according to Buddhism.

 

[Snoopy]

@IG

'I don't personally believe in literal rebirth, nor deities; but am trying to better understand how others view these concepts. That's why I like this forum; instead of just reading an ancient scripture I can interact with my fellow mankind and learn how they have processed this information to see what insights I can gain from their experience...'

I also do not believe in deities.

I accept and use what I can. My understanding is quite minimal and no doubt faulty; which is one good reason why I am prone to directing others to primary sources, to minimise the danger of conflating the word of Buddha with the word of snoopy. I endeavour to make clear whether what I am expressing is merely my own opinion or not.

 

[Lunitik]

@IG

'I don't reject all Buddhist teaching, in fact there are several Buddhist teachings that I agree with and try to apply to my daily life. I am trying to better understand some of the remaining Buddhist teachings that don't make sense to me, like literal rebirth.'

Literal rebirth doesn't make sense to me either. Perhaps it will one day.

'Favorable/unfavorable rebirth due to karma; judge is needed.'

Not according to Buddhism.

What do you mean by literal?

Obviously the body isn't returned, we can dig them up and see their decomposition, so it isn't literally literal at all. Memories are stored in the brain, so I am not sure how past lives can be recalled. This is still all transformed into something else though, so in a way it is reborn still.

From my understanding, reincarnation only pertains to your subtle body and the particular polarity of its energy according to karma - although this gets confusing because bardo apparently neutralizes according to the Tibetans.