Mark of the Beast

[IowaGuy]

Your post conveniently deals with none of the evidence I have put forward to show how the mark of the beast is becoming a reality. If you don't believe in this prophecy (or my understanding of how it is being fulfilled), challenge the evidence I am presenting.

OK, to challenge your evidence:

If one believes in the prophecy (I don't personally take Revelations as anything but the poetry/hallucinations of John of Patmos), then almost anything can be extrapolated to be the mark. But even many Christians don't think a microchip in the right hand is a mark of the beast, since the original Greek word "epi" denoted ON the hand, not IN the hand.

Identifying the Mark of the Beast

So, therefore, I think your evidence of the microchip doesn't fit the prophecy as written in Greek by John of Patmos.

Furthermore, many things have been hypothesized to be the mark of the beast: bar codes, social security numbers, etc. Like I say, if you want to fulfill a random prophecy, one can usually find some evidence to support it. Self-fulfilling prophecy.

But I do agree with you that money/material posessions is an obsession for many in today's society, which causes great suffering. Buddha and Jesus both teach against the evils of covetousness. But I don't think one has to tie this in with the mark of the beast, or even Christianity; many Buddhists would agree with you although even though they don't believe in deities.

Would you support a cashless, barter-based society as an alternative to taking the mark of the beast? i.e. like many historic Native American tribes, living off the land and bartering for what they can't produce locally?

 

[ciel_perdy]

We can stop right there at 'Paper'. We already are trading pieces of paper backed by governments, and that fulfills the mark of the beast image all by itself. Credit cards and chips in the arm are no different from so-called 'Cash'. You generally can't use gold anymore. First of all, cash is 'Legal Tender', which means businesses are bound by law to accept it as payment.

The phrase about 'Buying and selling' was active right from the beginning. Roman emperors issued money printed with their images, and their money became tied to accepting them as divine. You couldn't buy or sell without tainting yourself.
That is not me. I've always taken Revelation seriously over the years. What I think is that it was never meant to be used to predict events but to encourage believers in hard times.

The Matrix was a favorite. You don't have to wait for the world to go on pure credit. Its already on pure credit.

The prophecy says 'mark in their right hand or forehead'. That denotes more than just holding money. Aside from that, if money IS the mark of the beast, then we are going to face the wrath of God and suffer eternal damnation. But, I don't think you believe that now do you?

 

[ciel_perdy]

OK, to challenge your evidence: If one believes in the prophecy (I don't personally take Revelations as anything but the poetry/hallucinations of John of Patmos), then almost anything can be extrapolated to be the mark. But even many Christians don't think a microchip in the right hand is a mark of the beast, since the original Greek word; denoted ON the hand, not IN the hand. So, therefore, I think your evidence of the microchip doesn't fit the prophecy as written in Greek by John of Patmos. Furthermore, many things have been hypothesized to be the mark of the beast: bar codes, social security numbers, etc. Like I say, if you want to fulfill a random prophecy, one can usually find some evidence to support it. Self-fulfilling prophecy. But I do agree with you that money/material posessions is an obsession for many in today's society, which causes great suffering. Buddha and Jesus both teach against the evils of covetousness. But I don't think one has to tie this in with the mark of the beast, or even Christianity; many Buddhists would agree with you although even though they don't believe in deities Would you support a cashless, barter-based society as an alternative to taking the mark of the beast? i.e. like many historic Native American tribes, living off the land and bartering for what they can't produce locally?

I guess I would like to ask my question again, as it is gone unanswered twice now. IF techonology/government move to create a new monetary system that involves taking something in your right hand or forehead, would you take it?

Regards to the greek, on or in, doesn't really matter to me. I am not gun-ho that the mark will be a microchip, it's just the most likely candidate at present. I personally don't see a tatoo or some kind of self-adesive microchip on the hand as being the mark, mainly because people don't really WANT something visible (though you never know).

This focus on one word to the exclusion of all the other evidence I have given for how we are moving towards a cashless society and very likely the fulfillment of the mark prophecy, is rather dissapointing. It's almost like your trying too hard to overlook the evidence. Again, I am not advocating that the mark will be a microchip, but sharing about how we have the capability NOW to fulfill this prophecy.

You may say, ''ah, there's the self-fulfilling prophecy''. But Christians aren't the ones who will be 'self-fulfilling this prophecy''. No. That will be done well enough by those who choose to serve and love money, over God.

Regardless, this thread is not about the mircochip being the mark, but about the movement towards a cashless society that the whole world is rapidly moving towards, and how that relates to a prophecy in Revelation.

All of those things you mentioned as hypothesized as being the mark, I already covered in my post. If you just consider the two main points from the prophecy, 1: in (or on) the right hand or forehead, and 2: no man can buy or sell without it; you can pretty much see why these hypothesies are way off, to say the least. People may be able to find SOME evidence to support these theories, but usually the evidence contradicts the facts.


It's fair enough for you think that I should not tie in what Jesus taught about money with the mark, but I think both are incredibly relevant. Jesus didn't just teach about the bad effects of greed, he taught that man had two choices about what would recieve his life, love, affection and time. He said the choice was God or money.

While the Budha and other spiritual leaders have taught against greed, Jesus taught man to STOP working for money all together. He taught for us to forsake ALL that we own. Sure Budha also taught renunciation, but it's not a neccesity. Whereas Jesus said if anyone wants to be his disciple then they need to forsake all they own.

Now, the Revelation is a revelation of Jesus Christ. It all points back to his teachings, and that includes the Mark. Jesus made it clear that man has to choose which God they will serve and have faith in, God or Money. People have decieved themselves into thinking they can do both, but for not much longer. There will come a day when the mark will be a reality, and it is coming quickly. No more bullshit, you either love God or you love money and all that it can buy. One leads to life the other to death.

The two (Jesus and the Revelation) are powerfully interlinked. Why the desire to seperate them? Again, what is it about Jesus' message and the Revelation's message about money that threatens us so, to the point of wanting to overlook the powerfull correlation and truths that both expound?

Bartering is in some ways better than the money system because it's easy to limit greed. People can as easily hide their wealth for example. However, the money system is better in that it makes the movement of goods more efficient.

But I prefer what Jesus came to teach which is the Kingdom of Heaven. Sharing. There's a strange concept, hey? Imagine a world where people shared their resources, as one family. It wouldn't be a case of ''I do this if you do that'', because everyone would be working for love, everything would be everybodys.

That is the new world we are going into when Christ returns, but many people simply don't want that kind of world. They want a world where they can get what they want, when they want it, and not have to think about others. Barter, cash, or sharing.

Which do you prefer?

 

[ciel_perdy]

Why is it so hard to accept that most people don't consider your evidence as objective and rational. I understand that a lot of non-Christians might dismiss anything Revelation has to say out of hand because it requires a belief that the texts are written with divine (Christian) inspiration. When a person don't believe in a Christian divinity any similarity between Revelations and reality is seen as simple coincidence. Is this really hard to believe? Personally I'm agnostic, and I'm not particularity prejudice against Christianity, but my personal understanding of the world is different from Revelations. I'm not saying it's untrue, but I have no reason to trust it either. This isn't hard to believe either, right? The Mark of the Beast is perfectly rational to you, but not to everyone. Simple.

It seems NCOT, that you (like others) are spooning out over issues totally unrelated to what we are discussing. I am NOT asking you to be Christian, am NOT asking you to believe in Christian Divinity, or that the texts were written with divine inspiration.

I am not sue WHY you (and others) bring these hurdles up (perhaps because by doing so, you can easily dismiss anything you feel is uncomfortable?), because they really just confuse the issues, and stop rational discussion about the evidence that some text from 2000 years ago, is pretty much coming true before our eyes, and how that relates to what Jesus taught about man's choice between working for God or Money.

Again, I am not asking for you to 'trust' the Revelation. But, I am asking you to consider the text, consider it's message and it's relevance today, and how it relates to what Jesus taught.

If you think it's all hogwash then explain away the evidence and it's relation to what Jesus taught, rationally, without bringing in your biases against Christianity/Revelation to cloud the issues.

I am not asking that people believe in the whole package when I talk of the mark. I am just asking people to consider the text as it stands, without bias/prejudice or emotion getting in the way, and how it relates to where we are moving in the world, and it's correlation with what Jesus taught.

That is the rational I am looking for, not blind trust in the prophecy. But people really don't want to think about Jesus' and the Revelations message about money, and it's significance in thier lives.

Again, my question. Would you take something in your right hand or forehead without which you could not buy and sell, IF indeed such change comes in the monetary system?

 

[A Cup Of Tea]

I'm sorry you don't understand me, I have tried to make it clear why I don't see any similarities in Revelation and today as more than mere coincidence, but it appears we don't speak the same language in this case.
Good effort though.

 

[Servetus]

… But Christians aren't the ones who will be 'self-fulfilling this prophecy''. No. That will be done well enough by those who choose to serve and love money, over God ...

As I see it, there are already precursors to this mark in the form of economic trade embargoes. When, after a decade or so of trade sanctions against the “rogue” country of Iraq, Madeleine Albright was asked on 60 Minutes whether she considered the estimated half million children who had died as a result worth the price, she answered yes.

 

[Dream]

The prophecy says 'mark in their right hand or forehead'. That denotes more than just holding money.

It refers to the opposite of the imagery in Ex 13:16 . If you love the laws of God, then you think about them all the time and do them, so its like there's a phylactery on your head and right hand. It makes you a 'Good Catholic'. If you are lawless, love money, are greedy and compassionate-less, then in the place of law there is lawlessness, the mark of the beast. We are talking about Rev 14:9 which goes on to say in 9:12 "Here is a call for the endurance of the saints, those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus." Its talking about a 'Good' Catholic having to endure times when everyone else is only trusting in money, when people don't love each other.

Aside from that, if money IS the mark of the beast, then we are going to face the wrath of God and suffer eternal damnation. But, I don't think you believe that now do you?

I think lawlessness is the mark of the beast, but not lawlessness in the modern sense of the word. I mean lawlessness in the Christian sense. Mind, its not talking about Christians following literally Mosaic law but keeping the same spirit of justice and kindness and consideration for others. The 'Mark of the beast' means you have lawlessness where there should be law inside of you. Of course I do not think the mark is literal, because that would not make sense. In the preceding verse #8 it says "Fallen, fallen is Babylon the great, she who made all nations drink the wine of her impure passion." Which also lets you know the mark is about the impure passions in the heart, lawless, directionless and bestial, and its inside of the person. If the mark is literal, then we should all be wearing phylacteries.

Same chapter verse 1, "hundred and forty-four thousand who had his name and his Father's name written on their foreheads" which is another allusion to the phylactery on the head symbolizing the internalization of righteousness. Actually its a very zealous image of a person who is trying to get the law into themselves any way they can, even keeping written scripture next to their skin in hopes it will also get in that way.

 

[ciel_perdy]

It refers to the opposite of the imagery in Ex 13:16 . If you love the laws of God, then you think about them all the time and do them, so its like there's a phylactery on your head and right hand. It makes you a 'Good Catholic'. If you are lawless, love money, are greedy and compassionate-less, then in the place of law there is lawlessness, the mark of the beast. We are talking about Rev 14:9 which goes on to say in 9:12 "Here is a call for the endurance of the saints, those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus." Its talking about a 'Good' Catholic having to endure times when everyone else is only trusting in money, when people don't love each other.


I think lawlessness is the mark of the beast, but not lawlessness in the modern sense of the word. I mean lawlessness in the Christian sense. Mind, its not talking about Christians following literally Mosaic law but keeping the same spirit of justice and kindness and consideration for others. The 'Mark of the beast' means you have lawlessness where there should be law inside of you. Of course I do not think the mark is literal, because that would not make sense. In the preceding verse #8 it says "Fallen, fallen is Babylon the great, she who made all nations drink the wine of her impure passion." Which also lets you know the mark is about the impure passions in the heart, lawless, directionless and bestial, and its inside of the person. If the mark is literal, then we should all be wearing phylacteries.

Same chapter verse 1, "hundred and forty-four thousand who had his name and his Father's name written on their foreheads" which is another allusion to the phylactery on the head symbolizing the internalization of righteousness. Actually its a very zealous image of a person who is trying to get the law into themselves any way they can, even keeping written scripture next to their skin in hopes it will also get in that way.

You can THINK lawlessness is the mark of the beast, but the prophecy doesn't say that, it says the mark is used for buying and selling. You theory attempts to deal with the in the hand and on the forehead part of the prophecy, but breaks down with the buying and selling part, i.e. NO ONE can buy or sell without this mark. How do business owners know who has the mark according to your theory? How do you relate buying and selling into your theory? Because, as it is, it doesn't make sense, nor fit the facts of the prophecy.

You talk about Babylon falling, but that has nothing to do with the text in hand from Rev 13 about the mark. It's just you trying to give weight to your opinion. The spiritual mark God gives to his servants, IS different from the mark of the beast prophecy, because that prophecy clearly states, WITHOUT it no one can buy or sell.

So, again, explain your theory taking into account the buying and selling. I currently buy, you buy, at the moment nearly everyone on the planet partakes in buying and selling of some kind. Have we all taken the mark? I don't think so. There is nothing in my hand or forehead with which I need to buy or sell, but we are moving closer to the technology where we will be capable of doing exactly that. Why is this so hard for people to see?

Again, my question (though I don't think i asked it of you), would you take a microchip or some other technology in your hand or forehead for the express puropose of being able to buy and sell?

 

[arthra]

For those interested the Baha'i view of the "beast" was summarized by Abdul-Baha:

‘Abdu’l-Bahá in a Tablet has given an explanation for the reference to the “beast” mentioned in Revelations 13:18, saying that the numerical value given to the beast in that passage referred to the date of the year, i.e. 666 A.D., when the Umayyad ruler arose. This is obviously a reference to Mu‘áwíyih, the Umayyad Caliph who opposed the Imamate. He speaks further on this subject in Some Answered Questions, Chapter XI.

An article from the Research Dept. can be read

Memorandum: Implantation of Computer Chip and Mark of the Beast

A further elaboration was supplied by Riggs in his book on the Apocalypse Unsealed:

The marks_/5 or stigmata were: "right hand"*--the land and *The right hand is the business tax (kharaj), and "working" hand. "forehead"--the head tax (jizya) paid by non-Muslims, marking them as inferior and symbolizing in concrete form their subjection to the Muslim State. Many non-Muslims fled to avoid these taxes. Trading was forbidden unless one had paid the tax (had the mark) or was "muslim" (name of the beast), or was a member of the ruling class (number of his name). Apocalypse Unsealed: chapter 13

 

[Dream]

Thanks, Arthra, for that. Did you know that in the 'Continuous historic' interpretation of Revelation (not my way of interpreting but can be interesting) the symbols in The Apocalypse (Revelation) correspond to historic events starting from the time that the book was written, and there are various schemes that fit major historic events into the slots. I was never interested in working out the details, but to give an example the 10 tribes that invaded Rome might be associated with the beast's 10 horns and so on. Continuous Historic is supposed to involve the understanding that its all surmise and subjective, but a lot of people get caught up in taking it as if it were objective and as a proof of the Bible's truth. That is also the case with other popular interpretations like the Preterists and Futurists (the SBC are Futurists as are most charismatics). No scheme we think of can apply, objectively, historical events to the symbols as they are spiritual symbols, although they do borrow symbols from the Roman and Persian empires. If I were Baha'i, I should think Abdul Baha'i was talking about the symbolism, and I'd dismiss the nonsense about computer chips. What is missing from the C.H., Pret., and Fut. interpretations is how to apply the book as a moral book to our situation NOW, HERE, and TODAY. (I'm not yelling. Ok, yes I am.) They turn it into useless mush and a distraction from the important. You're the Baha'i though, so its up to you to determine what the value is for Bahai's.

 

[Dream]

You can THINK lawlessness is the mark of the beast, but the prophecy doesn't say that,

I realize it doesn't say it outright, but look what it does say outright. It says Jesus is a lamb (vs 1) that mankind are fruits (vs 2) and that God's wrath is wine.(vs 10). Yet we don't actually appear to be fruits, we drink wine at communion, and some of us eat lamb on our gyros. I'm not joking but am serious when I say let these symbols be symbols or they become ridiculous. I am just as serious about it as you.

it says the mark is used for buying and selling. You theory attempts to deal with the in the hand and on the forehead part of the prophecy, but breaks down with the buying and selling part, i.e. NO ONE can buy or sell without this mark. How do business owners know who has the mark according to your theory? How do you relate buying and selling into your theory? Because, as it is, it doesn't make sense, nor fit the facts of the prophecy.

The first verse of the entire book of Revelation says "The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show to his servants what must soon take place." I know that this book pertains to believers directly from the time it was written.

The ninth verse says "I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ," so I know this book is about enduring patiently, not just in a particular year but from now until the end. Every single verse is applicable to my life right now, today. By that logic I reason that it isn't about a set future of past time when I won't be able to buy and sell but that the 'Buying and selling' is somehow applicable to my life.

Perhaps it is talking about money, but perhaps buying and selling is also symbolic. When Jesus was here he said to his disciples " I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work." Who knows but maybe the 'Night' is the same as the 'Unable to buy or sell'. Whether 'Buying and selling is symbolic or not, it must apply to me right now, as it is scripture. Any interpretation must apply to all Christians that have ever lived. John is writing to me what Jesus gave him for me, which the Father gave to him for us who are alive right now, to those before us and to those after us.

You talk about Babylon falling, but that has nothing to do with the text in hand from Rev 13 about the mark. It's just you trying to give weight to your opinion. The spiritual mark God gives to his servants, IS different from the mark of the beast prophecy, because that prophecy clearly states, WITHOUT it no one can buy or sell.

You are taking portions of Revelation and saying that they are predictions that pertain to some believers in a certain time but not others.

So, again, explain your theory taking into account the buying and selling. I currently buy, you buy, at the moment nearly everyone on the planet partakes in buying and selling of some kind. Have we all taken the mark? I don't think so. There is nothing in my hand or forehead with which I need to buy or sell, but we are moving closer to the technology where we will be capable of doing exactly that. Why is this so hard for people to see?

I just know that whatever it means it applies to all of us past, present and future in our situations where and when we live. "22:10 And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand." Any interpretation must take this into account.

Again, my question (though I don't think i asked it of you), would you take a microchip or some other technology in your hand or forehead for the express purpose of being able to buy and sell?

If it didn't apply to Christians 1000 years ago, then it doesn't apply to me. You could exchange my entire skin with microchips and it wouldn't change my spirit one iota. So give me a chip. If I'm living the right way a chip with a number printed on it won't help or hurt me.

 

[ciel_perdy]

For those interested the Baha'i view of the "beast" was summarized by Abdul-Baha:

‘Abdu’l-Bahá in a Tablet has given an explanation for the reference to the “beast” mentioned in Revelations 13:18, saying that the numerical value given to the beast in that passage referred to the date of the year, i.e. 666 A.D., when the Umayyad ruler arose. This is obviously a reference to Mu‘áwíyih, the Umayyad Caliph who opposed the Imamate. He speaks further on this subject in Some Answered Questions, Chapter XI.

An article from the Research Dept. can be read

Memorandum: Implantation of Computer Chip and Mark of the Beast

A further elaboration was supplied by Riggs in his book on the Apocalypse Unsealed:

The marks_/5 or stigmata were: "right hand"*--the land and *The right hand is the business tax (kharaj), and "working" hand. "forehead"--the head tax (jizya) paid by non-Muslims, marking them as inferior and symbolizing in concrete form their subjection to the Muslim State. Many non-Muslims fled to avoid these taxes. Trading was forbidden unless one had paid the tax (had the mark) or was "muslim" (name of the beast), or was a member of the ruling class (number of his name). Apocalypse Unsealed: chapter 13

Thanks for the info. However, again the problem is that it doesn't take into account that ALL have to take it in order to buy and sell. I am sure there were PLENTY of other countries NOT under this rule, and as such were able to buy and sell, willy-nilly. The prophecy says, ''no one can buy or sell without this mark''.

 

[ciel_perdy]

Thanks, Arthra, for that. Did you know that in the 'Continuous historic' interpretation of Revelation (not my way of interpreting but can be interesting) the symbols in The Apocalypse (Revelation) correspond to historic events starting from the time that the book was written, and there are various schemes that fit major historic events into the slots. I was never interested in working out the details, but to give an example the 10 tribes that invaded Rome might be associated with the beast's 10 horns and so on. Continuous Historic is supposed to involve the understanding that its all surmise and subjective, but a lot of people get caught up in taking it as if it were objective and as a proof of the Bible's truth. That is also the case with other popular interpretations like the Preterists and Futurists (the SBC are Futurists as are most charismatics). No scheme we think of can apply, objectively, historical events to the symbols as they are spiritual symbols, although they do borrow symbols from the Roman and Persian empires. If I were Baha'i, I should think Abdul Baha'i was talking about the symbolism, and I'd dismiss the nonsense about computer chips. What is missing from the C.H., Pret., and Fut. interpretations is how to apply the book as a moral book to our situation NOW, HERE, and TODAY. (I'm not yelling. Ok, yes I am.) They turn it into useless mush and a distraction from the important. You're the Baha'i though, so its up to you to determine what the value is for Bahai's.

I have repeatedly talked about how it is a moral book for our situation NOW, HERE, and TODAY. I have repeatedly pointed it back to the teachings of Jesus, and what he taught about NOT working for money. Have you not seen that? The Revelation also shows us that the meek overcomess the mighty, Jesus taught the same. It teaches that ultimately every Kingdom of man is Babylon, full of confusion and totally opposed to the way's of the Kingdom of Heaven. Jesus also taught this. The Revelation teaches that what God is looking for is people who are not afraid to accept his authority over their lives, who are honest, and who follow their conscience regardless of religion, and that is what the Kingdom of Heaven is made up of. Again, this is what Jesus taught. The list really does go on.

The mark of the beast is extremely relevant when held in the light of Christ's teachings. After all, the testimony of Jesus IS the spirit of prophecy.

 

[ciel_perdy]

I realize it doesn't say it outright, but look what it does say outright. It says Jesus is a lamb (vs 1) that mankind are fruits (vs 2) and that God's wrath is wine.(vs 10). Yet we don't actually appear to be fruits, we drink wine at communion, and some of us eat lamb on our gyros. I'm not joking but am serious when I say let these symbols be symbols or they become ridiculous. I am just as serious about it as you.

The first verse of the entire book of Revelation says "The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show to his servants what must soon take place." I know that this book pertains to believers directly from the time it was written.

The ninth verse says "I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ," so I know this book is about enduring patiently, not just in a particular year but from now until the end. Every single verse is applicable to my life right now, today. By that logic I reason that it isn't about a set future of past time when I won't be able to buy and sell but that the 'Buying and selling' is somehow applicable to my life.

Perhaps it is talking about money, but perhaps buying and selling is also symbolic. When Jesus was here he said to his disciples " I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work." Who knows but maybe the 'Night' is the same as the 'Unable to buy or sell'. Whether 'Buying and selling is symbolic or not, it must apply to me right now, as it is scripture. Any interpretation must apply to all Christians that have ever lived. John is writing to me what Jesus gave him for me, which the Father gave to him for us who are alive right now, to those before us and to those after us.


You are taking portions of Revelation and saying that they are predictions that pertain to some believers in a certain time but not others.

I just know that whatever it means it applies to all of us past, present and future in our situations where and when we live. "22:10 And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand." Any interpretation must take this into account.

If it didn't apply to Christians 1000 years ago, then it doesn't apply to me. You could exchange my entire skin with microchips and it wouldn't change my spirit one iota. So give me a chip. If I'm living the right way a chip with a number printed on it won't help or hurt me.

The mark of the beast prophecy is applicable to any Christian at any time. Whatever time or location, if something was proposed to be put IN or ON your right hand without which you could not buy or sell, then it becomes applicable. There is a difference between applicable in the sense of how I have just described it, and applicable in the sense that at SOME point, it WILL be fulfilled. I don't see anything in the Revelation to suggest that prophecy has to be fulfilled all the time wherever and wherever, for it's spiritual lessons and applications to be relevant to any Christian. There is definately a future element to the book, whether you want to see it or not.

You say, ''perhaps buying and selling is also symbolic''. That particular text from Revelation really couldn't BE any clearer. It's not got any symbology, it's just a straight forward text, that states that at some point NO ONE will be able to buy or sell without a 'mark' in their right hand. Why turn it into something symbolic when it clearly isn't.

Again, I have repeatedly pointed back to Jesus and the lessons to be learn't with regards to what he taught about money, but you don't want to see that. The funny thing is you keep saying that the prophecy MUST apply to you right now, when that is exactly the purpose of this thread, namely, to think about how this prophecy is actually coming to pass pretty much before our eyes. So what you going to do...now?

Well, I guess your last line pretty much sums up your attitude. IF some kind of technology was to be put in your right hand or forehead without which you couldn't buy and sell, you'd take it. Oh, it's not the actualy CHIP of MARK that is and of itself evil (after all it's only silicone and metal), but what would be evil IS your SPIRIT. The evil is that you have more faith in money and all that money can buy, rather than living by faith in the Creator if the Universe, the one who gives you ever breath you breathe, and who wants to provide for you, if you would only let go of your life and work for love. And that is what Jesus taught.

 

[Dream]

The mark of the beast prophecy is applicable to any Christian at any time. Whatever time or location, if something was proposed to be put IN or ON your right hand without which you could not buy or sell, then it becomes applicable. There is a difference between applicable in the sense of how I have just described it, and applicable in the sense that at SOME point, it WILL be fulfilled.

I'm right there and understand what you mean. That would be fine if this book were not "The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass." (chapter 1, verse 1) Though we read a book that seems a jumble of chaotic images and stories, its actual purpose is to reveal the name Jesus Christ. It is a mysterious name full of meaning. Another thing verse 1 does is to use the term 'Shortly' which does not mean 'A long time from now'. If the book were not esoteric this would not make sense. In fact none of the prevailing time-based theories can explain this word 'Shortly' properly. They usually just assume that 'Shortly' means 'Longly'.

According to verse 1 the book is a revelation 'Of' Jesus Christ. It reveals 'Jesus Christ'. (It is not about future events, as we have been told by various sickeningly wealthy authors, who got wealthy by selling worthless books to my parents.) It is a revelation of Jesus Christ, written in an 'Esoteric' style. The title 'Apocalypse' means 'To Reveal Hidden Meaning', which is what Revelation does for the name of Jesus Christ. Its not easy reading. Once a person gets rooted in and has some solid Bible background to understand all of its symbols in the laws, and once they have experience reading other apocryphal books, then they are ready for the book Revelation. You aren't supposed to write books about Revelation to explain exactly what it means. The point is its something you can't write about straightforwardly and is supposed to take you beyond the realm of normal limited thinking.

You say, ''perhaps buying and selling is also symbolic''. That particular text from Revelation really couldn't BE any clearer. It's not got any symbology, it's just a straight forward text,

Revelation 14:9-10 "...receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, 10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God"

If it is not symbolic: Then it clearly states God's wrath is a wine you can drink. (This would have implications for communion, though you could try to make it work. No, I'm not supposing that.) The wrath is a real thing but you don't actually drink it, and the wine is a figure of speech. That doesn't make the wine a lie. Same goes for 'Buying and selling', right next to it. Its probably has a meaning beyond the imagery itself that allows it to make sense and to reveal Jesus Christ to us.

you keep saying that the prophecy MUST apply to you right now, when that is exactly the purpose of this thread, namely, to think about how this prophecy is actually coming to pass pretty much before our eyes. So what you going to do...now?

No one is suggesting a microchip or tattoo is necessary to buy and sell except the book authors that have made money off of my parents. There are chips you can buy that act like credit cards, but I've no interest in them. I've no interest in getting cut on or poked by needles. I hate needles and have always hated needles. If you gave me a needle full of heroin I'd probably use as soap to wash dishes.

 

[A Cup Of Tea]

Dream, I really enjoy your interpretations in post #31, very intelligent and tempered. Thanks for sharing.

 

[bob x]

Another thing verse 1 does is to use the term 'Shortly' which does not mean 'A long time from now'. If the book were not esoteric this would not make sense. In fact none of the prevailing time-based theories can explain this word 'Shortly' properly. They usually just assume that 'Shortly' means 'Longly'.

Precisely. The book is talking in code about the contemporary political situation of the 1st century. Deciphering it now, when we can't hope to catch all the references, is pretty hopeless; trying to apply it to the present day is an enormous mis-interpretation. At its most basic, it is reassuring the Christians that the Roman state which looked so enormous and unstoppable was really finished; it's talking about the end of the world as they knew it.

 

[Servetus]

The marks_/5 or stigmata were: "right hand"*--the land and *The right hand is the business tax (kharaj), and "working" hand. "forehead"--the head tax (jizya) paid by non-Muslims, marking them as inferior and symbolizing in concrete form their subjection to the Muslim State. Many non-Muslims fled to avoid these taxes. Trading was forbidden unless one had paid the tax (had the mark) or was "muslim" (name of the beast), or was a member of the ruling class (number of his name).

It has been rightly said that the times often interpret the text (of Revelation) as much as the text interprets the times. At first glance, I think this is a case in point.

‘Abdu’l-Bahá in a Tablet has given an explanation for the reference to the “beast” mentioned in Revelations 13:18, saying that the numerical value given to the beast in that passage referred to the date of the year, i.e. 666 A.D., when the Umayyad ruler arose. This is obviously a reference to Mu‘áwíyih, the Umayyad Caliph who opposed the Imamate. He speaks further on this subject in Some Answered Questions, Chapter XI.

Also, from the above-linked source:

Mr. ... may be interested to know that two other references to the “beast” in Revelations were found in Tablets of ‘Abdu’l-Bahá; however, neither the exact chapter nor verse to which the Master’s interpretations referred was specified. In one of these Tablets, the “beast” is interpreted as the “murderous, impudent, famous Roman Emperor, and the like”; in the second as “the one who made his utmost efforts to obliterate the Cause of God, and that was the Persian king; a king from among the ancient kings”.2 The Research Department could not locate any authoritative reference as to the identity of the persons referred to by ‘Abdu’l-Bahá in these Tablets.

If the beast is a Roman Emperor or Persian King, how can he also have been Mu‘áwíyih, the Umayyad Caliph? I wonder if the Roman Emperor referred to here is one from the past, or the reincarnation of an old one (such as Nero, for instance) to arise in future?

Not long ago, at the formation of America, the gods of the Roman Capitolina took a trip down the Tiber River and across the Atlantic Ocean where they took up residence on Capitol Hill and plenty of people, including, most notably, Arthur Schlesinger, refer to an “Imperial” presidency on the move. Meanwhile, a largely corrupt -or at least purchased and branded- Congress and Senate, based, as they are, upon a Roman model, look on and do little. The Roman Empire, it seems to me, or at least a variation of it in germinal form and potted in new soil, is here.

 

[radarmark]

I am firmly in the bobx camp. This thread shows why it is so improtant that we not be "literallists" and, simultaneously, "interpreters" of Revelation. The Armenians and other Oriental Orthodox have it right, ignore Revelation, it is merely a historical tale of the seven curches veiled in words that would not get the writer or reader killed by the Romans.

Pax et amore omnia vincunt.

 

[Dream]

Dream, I really enjoy your interpretations in post #31, very intelligent and tempered. Thanks for sharing.

Thanks, yes that was a good one. I did get overbearing in some posts, mainly because it is personal. I enjoyed reading Ceil Perdy's posts and respect them as a caring thinking person. Its just that this particular argument underlies many of the problems you see in the USA, believe it or not. Its the #1 distraction that keeps church people away from more important topics, such as more broad based Bible study or political involvement and awareness. There are week long seminars on the symbols in Revelation, hundreds of fictional books and movies about the 'Beast'. Radio and TV shows make waves scaring people and even getting them to sell of their belongings -- or even to live underground! There are magazines and journals that have been in publication for a century which constantly go over the details of the seven bowls, trumpets, candle-stands and so on. Fake experts travel the circuit and compare Revelation to Ezekiel, Daniel, and other apocryphal books they haven't a clue about. Church people want to know what is this strange and mysterious book at the 'End of the Bible', so they are listening to anyone who claims to understand it and sound authoritative and clever. Churches have heated arguments over pre-tribulation or post-tribulation. Unbelievably the whole mess even has spilled over into the Muslim camp which has itself (I hear) got its own ideas about the Beast etc.