Hell? Do you believe it exist?

Well, even Jesus believes in punishment as he continually talks about "ghehenna" in the New Testament, or rather a lake of fire.

There is a difference between "turn the other cheek" and having someone due their time for evil done. "Turn the other cheek" is about returning bad by good, endurance, and attempting not to escalate a violence. "Ghehenna" according to Jesus has a completely different purpose. That is why I am saying that Christians, or any other follower of an Abrahamic faith, have no scriptural proof to say that Jesus only believed in forgiveness for everyone. Whether it is a temporary or permanent Divine Punishment, the "Ghehenna", or not it is up to the Divine Power to decide.
Either Jesus does not what he is saying in the New Testament, or the New Testament followers are inventing a doctrine about the eternal forgiveness.
 
Amica said:
Hi NiceCupofTea--

Capital punishment might be another topic of its own, but I would not call the U.S. "barbaric."
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well i did

the death penalty is barbaric IMO, glad we dont have it in the UK.
 
Amica said:
I think there is no scriptural proof to say that the Divine Mercy is infinite, it's rather man's hope for it. The Bible is clear on the Divine Punishment as in the Apocalypse of John, for example,.
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you can pretty much find scriptural proof for whatever you like really.

"If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness."
1 John 1:9 New International Version

"Repent, then, and turn to God, so that your sins may be wiped out, that times of refreshing may come from the Lord,"
Acts 3:19 New International Version

"I, even I, am he who blots out
your transgressions, for my own sake,
and remembers your sins no more.

Review the past for me,
let us argue the matter together;
state the case for your innocence."
Isaiah 43:25-26 New International Version

"Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus,"
Romans 8:1 New International Version

"Come now, let us reason together,"
says the LORD.
"Though your sins are like scarlet,
they shall be as white as snow;
though they are red as crimson,
they shall be like wool.""
Isaiah 1:18 New International Version

"Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come!"
2 Corinthians 5:17 New International Version

"In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God's grace."
Ephesians 1:7 New International Version

"Then he adds:
"Their sins and lawless acts
I will remember no more.""
Hebrews 10:17 New International Version

"The Lord our God is merciful and forgiving, even though we have rebelled against him;"
Daniel 9:9 New International Version

"For he has rescued us from the dominion of darkness and brought us into the kingdom of the Son he loves, in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins."
Colossians 1:13-14 New International Version

"As far as the east is from the west,
so far has he removed our transgressions from us."
Psalm 103:12 New International Version
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NiceCupOfTea said:
well i did

the death penalty is barbaric IMO, glad we dont have it in the UK.
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Did the Barbarians legislate Capital Punishment (Death penalty)?

Barbarism has now manifest in a Kali-yuga-esque Aka, Bizarro-World pathos of Double-speak reverse logic --- a pathos that destines grandkids to a further subjugated state of Serfdom.

We are all serfs in a word of lust-mongers.

=========================
I’d do indeed understnd your usage of “Barbaric” ---but I think that it is false & phony to use it ---especially inregards to legitimate efforts made in running civil society.

Criminals are “Barbaric”.
Street sweepers & gargbage haulers are not “Barbaric”.

As examlified by the Changing Lexicon vs the reality of Mass-explotation ---all for the sake of Our Daily Bread ---which, BTW gets more expensive as each generation is born, irregardless of Modern technologies Triumpant proclamations.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Bibliography:

Comtemporay Spanish Slang (as seen on TV):

bárbara
adj. attractive; hot; sexy (said of women). (used in Argentina)
bárbaro
adj. fantastic; tremendous; brilliant
bárbaro
adj. attractive; appealing man

http://www.languagerealm.com/spanish/spanishslang_b.php

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^


barbarian
mid-14c. (adj.), from M.L. barbarinus (cf. O.Fr. barbarin "Berber, pagan, Saracen, barbarian"), from L. barbaria "foreign country," from Gk. barbaros "foreign, strange, ignorant," from PIE base *barbar- echoic of unintelligible speech of foreigners (cf. Skt. barbara- "stammering," also "non-Aryan"). Greek barbaroi (n.) meant "all that are not Greek," but especially the Medes and Persians. Originally not entirely pejorative, its sense darkened after the Persian wars. The Romans (technically themselves barbaroi) took up the word and applied it to tribes or nations which had no Greek or Roman accomplishments. The noun is from late 14c., "person speaking a language different from one's own," also (c.1400) "native of the Barbary coast;" meaning "rude, wild person" is from 1610s.

http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=barbarian

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
 
Jayhawker Soule said:
Hell is a post-biblical (post-Torah) construct to deal with the problem of evil.
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Before there was the Dante fueled eternal damnation popular today, the idea of an Underworld dates back to ancient Egypt, Mesopotamia, and Indus Valley, for instance in Ancient Egypt wall paintings show 'the wicked' being consumed by fire.

But unlike the modern Dante fueled version we have today, the Underworld's of ancient man were places where heroes descended to rescue lovers or to gain secret knowledge through a series of demonic battles and so forth, then re-entering the mundane world with new strengths in order to again rescue a lover or someone of similar status.

This can be metaphorically understood as facing our Shadow Self and defeating our deepest fears and malevolent memories to emerge a stronger person.
 
Nick the Pilot said:
I reject any religion that teaches the forgiveness of sin in this way....I feel comfortable believing such forgiveness does not exist. If you believe as I do, you will have no need to get angry. I firmly believe that Hitler is not standing next to such babies
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But Nick, in your belief system Hitler could also find his way to heaven, he would just have to burn off lots of karma in his upcoming rebirths, no?

So Theosophy would eventually forgive Hitler (or whomever he's reborn as) as well, is this correct?
 
Yes! Once Hitler has burned off each and every piece of evil karma that he has created, I would definitely welcome him into heaven. I see no reason to take any other attitude towards people like Hitler. This is the promise that reincarnation gives, that the idea of an eternal hell cannot. (Theosophy most certainly sees hell as temporary not eternal.)

It has been said that some of the greatest people of our time may have been terrible people in previous lifetimes, and have worked very hard at becoming righteous and great leaders. This is the promise of reincarnation and karma, and it makes more sense to me than any other system I've heard of.

Everyone, even people like Hitler, have the opportunity to work towards heaven, no matter how terribly they have acted, if they will just commit themselves to such a goal and start working towards it. The Abrahamic religions do not promise this, but Theosophy does.

I heard the story of a man who committed suicide (very much against divine law) and he was forced into one more reincarnation as a doctor, which gave him the opportunity to save lives and make up for the taking of his own life. Nature is all about balance, bad karma throws nature out of balance, and being forced into these kinds of reincarnations puts nature back into balance.

This theory also makes it easy for us humans to forgive other people for doing bad things, because we know they will be held 100% accountable for what they have done, even if we forgive them. (Our forgiving them doesn't "let them off the hook" one bit.)
 
"...even Jesus believes in punishment..."

--> In my mind, there is no question that Jesus taught reincarnation and karma (and his teachings were later rewritten.
 
Hi Amica —

Amica said:
I can forgive without limits, but I still feel a person deserves to serve their time for what they have done.
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Well that is only provisional forgiveness, isn't it. The point is that Christ forgave, and with the forgiveness comes a clean slate, as it were. We tend to forgive, but remember ...

Contrition — a prerequisite of forgiveness — requires acceptance of the fault.

Might I suggest that someone with a track record like AH, who were overcome with contrition at the last (and the evidence seems unlikely), would have to face up to what he or she had done.

And this would not be a pleasant experience.

God bless

Thomas
 
Amica said:
Well, even Jesus believes in punishment as he continually talks about "ghehenna" ...
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Gehenna symbolises exclusion ... it was not a place of punishment, it was a rubbish tip, where stuff (including the bodies of the unclaimed dead) ended up. It was also considered polluted ground ... but it's significance tells us more than pagan notions of Hades.

Actually I think Gehenna is a suitable image in the context of Hebraic eschatology, which (if I understand correctly) suggests there's a lot more useful things we could be talking about than that which we do not know ...

Amica said:
That is why I am saying that Christians, or any other follower of an Abrahamic faith, have no scriptural proof to say that Jesus only believed in forgiveness for everyone.
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Except, of course, when He forgave them. (John 8:1-11, Luke 23:34, and 39. And the Beatitudes ... and His Discourse at the Last Supper ... )

I think it's fair to say that Jesus forgave those who asked to be forgiven ... and He tells us we must do likewise.

If however, someone does not seek forgiveness, then the question is moot.

God bless,

Thomas





Whether it is a temporary or permanent Divine Punishment, the "Ghehenna", or not it is up to the Divine Power to decide.
Either Jesus does not what he is saying in the New Testament, or the New Testament followers are inventing a doctrine about the eternal forgiveness.[/QUOTE]
 
On a personal note ...

When discussing hell and eschatology generally, please can respondents not assume everyone shares their frankly medieval notion of the topic — that is can you resist imposing your ideas upon others?

There may well be American denominations that seem to make a lot of noise about the issue, and seem stuck in a certainly Mediaeval mindset ... but please be assured we're not all stuck in Dante.

God bless,

Thomas
 
A Cup Of Tea said:
Concerning forgiveness, in a Christian sense isn't it outside our human scope to understand who should be judged? I don't understand how just saying the words would change anything, but if a person fully regret their actions they have changed and are not the same person who committed those acts. Theoretically, if Hitler repented, he saw the error of his ways, I would gladly put him in a heavenly afterlife.
I personally don't understand punishment for punishments sake.
(I really don't want to offend people by saying that I gladly wish Hitler to go to heaven, but it's a matter of principle for me, it should encompass all people, even the worst of us)
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Thomas said:
Contrition — a prerequisite of forgiveness — requires acceptance of the fault.

Might I suggest that someone with a track record like AH, who were overcome with contrition at the last (and the evidence seems unlikely), would have to face up to what he or she had done.

And this would not be a pleasant experience.

God bless

Thomas
Click to expand...

Contrition, this is what I meant even though I wasn't familiar with the word until now.
 
Thomas said:
Hi Amica —


Well that is only provisional forgiveness, isn't it. The point is that Christ forgave, and with the forgiveness comes a clean slate, as it were. We tend to forgive, but remember ...

Contrition — a prerequisite of forgiveness — requires acceptance of the fault.

Might I suggest that someone with a track record like AH, who were overcome with contrition at the last (and the evidence seems unlikely), would have to face up to what he or she had done.

And this would not be a pleasant experience.

God bless

Thomas
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Even seen "little nicky"?:D

Seriously though, my conception is along Thomas' lines. Those kind of souls are destined for Gehenna. And I think separation, say a near eternity in solitary confinement or lost in one's imagination (complete with Dr Mengele or Dr Vogel) would work.

Pax et amore omnia vincunt!
 
bob x said:
Well that's a good thing, but aren't you being a "Cafeteria Christian" here? It was from your Tradition, after all, that the medieval picture of Hell derived.
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Yes it was ... but the Tradition has moved on.

God bless,

Thomas
 
The doctrine of Hell is the most evil idea ever invented. Extreme torment for all eternity? That is worse than all the burnings, crucifixions, disembowellings and other tortures practiced by humans over the centuries. Hell is based on a blasphemous misrepresentation of the true nature of God. There is a God, but he is not a God of Hell. Of all the religious doctrines, this is by far the most psychologically coercive, and has been used to perpetuate all manner of wrongdoings.
 
Scout said:
The doctrine of Hell is the most evil idea ever invented. Extreme torment for all eternity? That is worse than all the burnings, crucifixions, disembowellings and other tortures practiced by humans over the centuries. Hell is based on a blasphemous misrepresentation of the true nature of God. There is a God, but he is not a God of Hell. Of all the religious doctrines, this is by far the most psychologically coercive, and has been used to perpetuate all manner of wrongdoings.
Click to expand...

It is interesting to contemplate who invented it.

As it doesn't appear that it was the Jews:eek:
 
Jews became influenced by the concept of Hell in the Zoroastrian religion which was popular all over Persia. That is why, at the time of Jesus, Jews were familiar with the idea. They did not all believe in it, though. The Sadduccee faction believed this life is all there is. Others believed Hell was limited in duration. Some even had ideas about reincarnation.
 
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