Tao Te Ching chapter 20 - empty mind

[Lunitik]

This is why it is said "as an idiot", it is because knowledge does not come in.

When looking at the flower, you need not say "this is a rose", "the rose is red", "the rose has thorns", "the rose has a nice fragrance"... this is all knowledge, but you are looking at it, you are smelling it, why does mind need to come in and announce all that it knows about this beauty which you are now aware of?

When mind comes in, the experience is lost, it will utterly destroy the experience and you will move on because it has lost its beauty now. Mind is very violent in this way, that it destroys beauty by deconstructing it and creating something ordinary.

It does not care that this rose is an expression of existence, that it needn't have existed in the first place, that existence has chosen such a beautiful way to express. It removes the miracle that this flower even is, why does it exist? It has no purpose at all other than its beauty. It seems utterly pointless, why has existence done this? Why hasn't it at least put a fruit on it, then there is a reason. It is so intricate, it seems such time has been put into it and yet there is no reason.

All you can do is be grateful, because you too have no purpose, and yet you exist as this flower does... simply as an expression.

 

[Lunitik]

Man goes on finding answers, reaching certain conclusions.

Drop the questions and simply enjoy.

 

[luecy7]

Yes, I do witness that life is rather unproductive and foolish when we are a servant of those addictions of the mind and body. The addicted says: I'd like to do that, or I'd like one of those, without recognizing the nature of where that desire came from. Sure, a person can accuse the company that provided for the addicted, and a person can accuse another person for raising the issue with them, but the fact remains that until we take responsibility for our actions, and for overcoming the addiction, then we will remain a servant of our own mind.

A person can battle their addiction as a solo exercise, but as I have witnessed it they will fail because they will either deny that they have an addiction or see no purpose to overcome it. The addicted are defensive of their solo exercise. The act of thinking and taking a moral inventory of our actions within the relations with others, the act of obtaining feedback from others, the act of confessing to others, the act of seeking help from others, the act of trying to help someone else and thus seeing their addictions to compare with our own behavior, the acts that bring spiritual fulfillment rather than the temporary physical enjoyment, are all examples of acts that involve more than one person. I find they are necessary, but I have looked when someone claimed otherwise. Remaining addicted can be accomplished solo, in the privacy of one's own home, within one's own mind, perhaps now more easily than ever. Stepping out of that addiction is just not a solo exercise, and it is therefore not an easy thing to do until you have done it, and know the path. Even after, a different addiction could come along or resurface: the life boat away from an addiction is never destroyed on the side of any shore, just sent back to help others who are addicted.

This is why I have said: It takes two to Tao. To empty the mind of the addictions, is quite simply not a solo exercise.

I will not hold it against the person that disagrees with me. I am not their enemy. Either they, or I, are defending their own addictions. I have witnessed and known the path by which I have overcome some of my personal addictions. I have witnessed and known the path by which others have overcome some of their personal addictions. I have witnessed and known the path by which people do not overcome their addictions.

Lunatik, I am afraid you are a data point for me of a person who is exceedingly content, and defensive, of themselves being addicted: a servant of their own mind and body. I appreciate and rather expected your accusations just the same. You are welcome back any time. It is good to see the reasoning, logic, and arguments of an addiction, in case we are, or we become, addicted ourselves. Wouldn't you agree?

 

[Lunitik]

Lunatik, I am afraid you are a data point for me of a person who is exceedingly content, and defensive, of themselves being addicted: a servant of their own mind and body. I appreciate and rather expected your accusations just the same. You are welcome back any time. It is good to see the reasoning, logic, and arguments of an addiction, in case we are, or we become, addicted ourselves. Wouldn't you agree?

I was not defensive of my addiction at all, I simply do not comprehend why you feel bringing up an addiction is a method for dropping it? I told you the smoking companies pay for the anti-smoking ads, I told you why this is. I asked you to cease bringing it up because it is not helpful at all, you persisted. I then told you directly that I would leave if you cannot stop bringing it up, yet I allowed it to slide while we were running. You brought it up again the next day, so I said I will leave and I did.

You have a problem with control, you need to be in control of everything, and it clearly became a type of addiction for you when you discovered I smoke. You could not shut up about it at all, not even for 15 mins could you not bring it up except when we were watching TV - which I see as another pointless addiction and yet something you have clearly invested much in. The need for control is a sickness, it is because we do not choose when we enter this world, and we do not choose to leave, everything in between some fight to have something resembling control in. We cannot simply understand it is an illusion, that we are here to celebrate what is, not to try to change it. Everything humans do here goes on destroying this places natural beauty for our own convenience, we go on pushing this way and that trying to show we are powerful - then we wonder why existence shows we are not in hurricanes, tsunamis, and the like... it is simply putting us back in our place.

Do not misunderstand, it is not vindictiveness, it is merely to refocus us on the awesomeness of existence. We start thinking we are great, it is simply a prod to show us nothing we are doing is even relevant except that we can do it. Now we can turn back to the divine with a new respect, without the illusion that we are in control, that we are merely being permitted.

 

[luecy7]

I asked you to cease bringing it up because it is not helpful at all, you persisted. You have a problem with control, you need to be in control of everything, and it clearly became a type of addiction for you when you discovered I smoke.

Smoking is not allowed at our house, and we do not like that permeating odor that is left behind. In a few days we will have some visitors who are sensitive to it. Is smoking allowed at your parent's house?

You could not shut up about it at all, not even for 15 mins could you not bring it up except when we were watching TV - which I see as another pointless addiction and yet something you have clearly invested much in.

Good point. Yes, TV can be an addiction. Since I am exceedingly active and I do not watch very much, and because after we all went to bed you stayed up finishing off a 6-pack while watching TV late into the evening, I am curious why you accuse me of that as an addiction. Just as an example, unless you count time spent posting here, or reading news on the internet, I have not watched any TV for about a month.

The need for control is a sickness, it is because we do not choose when we enter this world, and we do not choose to leave, everything in between some fight to have something resembling control in.

Good point. When someone asks or tells me to do something, I should not feel any urge to defend any freedom. I am often a servant, taking orders and giving a bit of control to others. You don't do the same?

Everything humans do here goes on destroying this places natural beauty for our own convenience, we go on pushing this way and that trying to show we are powerful - then we wonder why existence shows we are not in hurricanes, tsunamis, and the like... it is simply putting us back in our place.

So then the hurricanes, tsunamis, and the like, did not appear until humans showed up? I would certainly agree that there is addictive, destructive, behavior in the world.

 

[luecy7]

I have not watched any TV for about a month.

I take it back... I forgot that I did watch a few movies on a flight 3 weeks ago, though I did exchange a little conversation with the person next to me too. What can I say: It was a very long flight.

No smoking on the flight though!

 

[Lunitik]

Good point. Yes, TV can be an addiction. Since I am exceedingly active and I do not watch very much, and because after we all went to bed you stayed up finishing off a 6-pack while watching TV late into the evening, I am curious why you accuse me of that as an addiction. Just as an example, unless you count time spent posting here, or reading news on the internet, I have not watched any TV for about a month.

I wasn't up watching TV, I put it onto a music channel and danced when you left for at most an hour then went to bed...

Good point. When someone asks or tells me to do something, I should not feel any urge to defend any freedom. I am often a servant, taking orders and giving a bit of control to others. You don't do the same?

No, I do not become a slave among slaves, even with existence it is a play not a slavery.

So then the hurricanes, tsunamis, and the like, did not appear until humans showed up? I would certainly agree that there is addictive, destructive, behavior in the world.

Money is an addiction... in fact it is an addiction Jesus explicitly condemns, yet you place it first in your life...

The whole process that has resulted in this earth was very violent, but it calmed down for a very long time. Now our pollutants are negatively effecting the atmosphere, but we are too stubborn to admit it for the large part. We have been shown alternatives because of this damage, but we thought it too expensive to switch... what happened in 2008?

Existence is awesome, although we still do not heed its call.

 

[wil]

empty mind....

non judgement....

like a child...

see with new eyes...

can't put new wine in old wine skins...

gotta be empty to see what is in front of us?

 

[luecy7]

No, I do not become a slave among slaves, even with existence it is a play not a slavery.

So you don't see any difference between serving others, and slavery? Are your parents thus a slave to meeting your needs?

Money is an addiction... in fact it is an addiction Jesus explicitly condemns, yet you place it first in your life...

Money is a piece of paper. Drugs, alcohol, and cigarettes are chemicals. A TV is a device made out of some plastics, metal, and silicone. Those things are not the addiction, though a person can be addicted to those things.

People can seek, find agreement, hold relationships, and serve each other with, or without, a piece of paper.

Existence is awesome, although we still do not heed its call.

Hopefully those who exist around you will agree that existence around you is awesome. My experience has been that existance around people who have addictions is far less than awesome. I do not wish to be that kind of burden on the people who exist around me. Do you, of the people who exist around you?

 

[luecy7]

empty mind....

non judgement....

like a child...

see with new eyes...

can't put new wine in old wine skins...

gotta be empty to see what is in front of us?

I ask the people around me for their judgment, I hope they are not empty, and I am often happy to find that they are not empty. Who wishes others to be empty minded? Where are the true interests of that philosophy? Yes, that sounds like something that a military would wish upon their enemy. Not for me... no thanks!

 

[Lunitik]

So you don't see any difference between serving others, and slavery? Are your parents thus a slave to meeting your needs?

To serve is to do without asking because you want to do it, to be a slave is to follow an order that you do not wish because you feel obligated.

People can seek, find agreement, hold relationships, and serve each other with, or without, a piece of paper.

Ok, but what is the benefit to this? If you cannot give a person freedom to be themselves due to compromising, you are doing them an injustice. What purpose is there in not living fully because you have to cater to others? You will be on your death bed questioning whether it was worth it, because you have wasted so much of your life to catering for others.

Hopefully those who exist around you will agree that existence around you is awesome. My experience has been that existance around people who have addictions is far less than awesome. I do not wish to be that kind of burden on the people who exist around me. Do you, of the people who exist around you?

I have left because you are a burden, for me, your whole demeanor and energy was as though you are dead... it was draining. You are devoid of life, and you persist on utter irrelevance, believing nonsense to be intelligent.

 

[luecy7]

To serve is to do without asking because you want to do it, to be a slave is to follow an order that you do not wish because you feel obligated.

Interesting twist of definition. So by your definition you are a servant of cigarettes, alcohol, drugs, feelings, and your own sinful whim, for you do these things without being asked, because you want to. Whereas you are a slave of your own fear, where you follow it when you do not wish to because you cling to the obligation of benefitting yourself.

If you cannot give a person freedom to be themselves due to compromising, you are doing them an injustice.

So Lunitik can do no injustice as he claims that he can do nothing, yet accuses others of doing something, and of doing an injustice against his ability to do. Do you think you might be behaving as a hypocrite? We do have the freedom to sin, to do an injustice, and even be a hypocrite about it... you agree?

 

[Lunitik]

Interesting twist of definition. So by your definition you are a servant of cigarettes, alcohol, drugs, feelings, and your own sinful whim, for you do these things without being asked, because you want to. Whereas you are a slave of your own fear, where you follow it when you do not wish to because you cling to the obligation of benefitting yourself.

My fear? Your need to control is the result of a fear, your very religion is because of your fear, it is the same fear as everyone: death. You have no control of whether you die, you had no control over being born either, you want a false control to mask this.

I live out of love, and knowing love fully you cannot fear. When you are filled with love, what more to do? When filled with love, what more can be added? So much of mans follies are because he feels a void which he is trying to fill. I have no void in me, so I do not strive for something which is not, I do not pander to what might be because I do not need something other than what already is.

I do not think you have any idea about real love, for you it is just the opposite of hate. Your love is a dependence, and a feeling of being needed, this is what you seem to mean by sharing control. Real love is not this, real love knows no distinction between this and that, there is no possibility for one to be in control, even team work doesn't really say it. It is when two functions as one, when each is lost and only love remains. Then who will control who? There is no one to control and no one to be controlled, so where can control even enter?

Love is to let-go, to allow utterly, and simply trust - it is essentially the opposite of control. Hate, greed, anger, these are merely the expressions of control, an attempt to prevent the other.

So Lunitik can do no injustice as he claims that he can do nothing, yet accuses others of doing something, and of doing an injustice against his ability to do. Do you think you might be behaving as a hypocrite? We do have the freedom to sin, to do an injustice, and even be a hypocrite about it... you agree?

No, you do an injustice by preventing another their freedom. For you, everyone should be like you, but to me that looks like death, you are death walking - there is nothing like life there, you are not alive, just breathing and going through the motions as a consequence. It is not a case of stopping them from doing, you stop others from being alive. You want others to conform to your ideals, yet you do not realize that you function outwardly because you fear what is there within. You have tasted the emptiness of it and have ran, now you exist only relative to others, trying to create meaning. In knowing your own depths, there is great freedom, but you function as a constriction.

 

[Lunitik]

All I have been doing on these forums is to try to show people the place within themselves where love resides, to show everyone how to open the container and permit love to flow. All that I speak of, it is all about realizing you yourself are love, nothing else. This is exactly the realization, and the Bible says it too, it says "God is love" - the whole purpose of every scripture is to find a non-dependent love residing already in yourself, that is all.

Despite this, you go on fighting what I say, but you are devoid of love. You can say you love others, but there is no love within you, how can you share what you do not have in the first place? If you live devoid of love, I say this is death, you are as the undead - just animated death.

 

[luecy7]

No, you do an injustice by preventing another their freedom.

You believe I am preventing someone's freedom? Who?

 

[Lunitik]

You believe I am preventing someone's freedom? Who?

All who you believe you "share control" with at this time - AND yourself.

Compromise subtracts from life, from your freedom... it is exactly the definition, to find the middle - all that remains is two halves. It is not a dissolving, it is a chopping, violent and against freedom. A strange thing, both end up being unhappy because neither have gotten what they wanted.

It is better to part company than to give an inch, if you go on giving you will be left with nothing, then what is there to share? You have spent your whole life compromising, there is so little left and still you seek compromise. There is so little left of yourself, now you define yourself relative to others, there is nothing like individuality, integrity, because you have given so much away.

 

[Lunitik]

You have had a Buddha in your house, a free one, and you have disputed and believed you know something better. You have missed your own freedom in the process of trying to restrict mine.

I am absolutely an individual in the literal sense: not dividable. For you, dividing yourself is spirituality it seems.

You depend on others, so you cut a little of yourself to cater. A Buddha is as fulfilled alone as with company, thus there is no need for the other. He appreciates the other while they are there, he enjoys their time together fully, but there is no dependence. You fear people leaving because you define yourself by them, still you cannot allow that I am gone from you.

This is the way of life, you journey along and every so often a companion pops up and so you journey together, enjoying each other utterly. One day you come to a T-road, and you realize both are going in a different direction now, so you depart wishing them the best. You can remain at the intersection if you like, neither continuing to grow, neither seeing what else is available, but it is unfair to both. You can continue going forward too, but there is no road there for a reason, perhaps there is a cliff or a river which cannot be passed. You can go backwards as well, but you have already been there, where is the interest? You can even go as a shadow of the other, but what of the other road, your own destination? No, it is better to part, every other option is non-optimal.

Compromise is due to clinging, you cannot simply both do what you wish without the other. You will bring up your wife, saying you have to compromise with her, why? Plenty do not, this we call divorce, and it is perfectly good because having to compromise so much will cause your death - has caused your death, and to some extent hers, although she is a little more alive because of the children. Love is to let go, to know when it is no longer good to journey together.

 

[Lunitik]

It is beautiful that this is occurring in a Tao thread...

Tao means The Way, the way of things, as they are naturally, not seeking to change, not seeking for more or less, just accept whatsoever is. Let go to what is, dissolve into it, then permit it to take you. As a stream, all goes to the ocean, why fight with the current? It knows where it is going, you only know where you have been.

This is Tao, but compromise is to be in two boats atop the water, anything can cause a fall because you are not totally in either, you are just so-so, it is everything you can do just to balance. You must permit each their own boat, but now there is nothing keeping the boats together, if they should part you can do nothing. You should permit it, allow the current always...

The current is love - for yourself, for the other, but deeper yet for life itself.

 

[luecy7]

You have had a Buddha in your house, a free one...

Imagine that: a person claiming to be a Buddha that is free... except in my presence.

 

[Lunitik]

Imagine that: a person claiming to be a Buddha that is free... except in my presence.

A Buddha is a free one...

You are an impediment to silence, you have pursued conversation instead of permitting silence. Even in a jail cell, you have more freedom than in your house. This you seem to be boasting about?

There have been Buddhas that commit trivial crimes to try awakening people in jails, I do not think such Buddhas would spend longer than I did in your home.

You are about as far from religiousness as a person can possibly be, and yet you think you know something of religiousness... it is laughable, it did not take long to know I am wasting my time being around you. Yet, you continue to waste my time on here by addressing me, still you have not let go.