The Definition of a Miracle

[Ben Masada]

*

perhaps. i don't see, however, what your basis is for assuming that the "tree of life" is about "eternal life"? remember, theologically speaking, if one believes in the idea that one's soul continues after death, that is not really at issue. perhaps unusually unlike the greeks, egyptians, assyrians and babylonians, i am not aware that we have ever considered immortality to be something to aspire to; i just don't think that's in our culture.

on the contrary - if G!D Is G!D, then G!D Is G!D of all - remember, in G!DSpace, to my way of thinking, there's no time, so life and death cannot be separate; plus, of course, there is considerable Talmudic source material that describes stuff the moses got up to with G!D after his death, including studying Torah, so clearly by that logic the Torah continues to be the "tree of life" after death; but, again, this is just opinion-based casuistry, we have no way of actually *knowing* this stuff.

b'shalom

bananabrain

My basis to assert that the metaphorical tree of life is about the attribute of eternal life is in Genesis 3:22, where we have that Adam and Eve were banned from the Garden of Eden to prevent them from eating of the tree of life and live forever. To live forever is the connection with the tree of life. Hence, eternal life.

This idea of Moses studying Torah with God after his death, is midrashic myth to be used as parables are used to illustrate a moral or spiritual lesson. The Talmud abound with them.
Ben

 

[radarmark]

Excuse me, is it not possible you are talking past each other? Ben is looking at the Torahic "mees" and BB the Kabbalic "etz"?

 

[Ben Masada]

Excuse me, is it not possible you are talking past each other? Ben is looking at the Torahic "mees" and BB the Kabbalic "etz"?

I believe BB is talking about Talmudic midrashim, which I value as much as I do parables.
Ben

 

[IowaGuy]

I'm saying you can't hand strangers a Bible and expect them to live their lives by it, just like you cannot give chefs only sugar and expect them to make a pie out of it. A Bible on its own is like a ladder with only two rungs and its like a citizen who has no rights.

Dream - I like your analogy here, and I agree 100%. I wish the fundamentalist right-wing Christians in the U.S. shared this same viewpoint as you do. Unfortunately, the first words out of some fundies mouths are "the bible says..."

 

[Dream]

Dream - I like your analogy here, and I agree 100%. I wish the fundamentalist right-wing Christians in the U.S. shared this same viewpoint as you do. Unfortunately, the first words out of some fundies mouths are "the bible says..."

This was hard for me to admit at my age. I'm glad we could agree, and I appreciate the clapping from BBrain. Yes, seattlegal is a sharpie. Naturally I have shared the same concerns as you, IGuy, about it being an elitist position; but its not. It is elitist of me to take the Bible out of its shrine.

 

[Ben Masada]

dude - for me, the ma'aseh bereisheeth is a text of astonishing profundity, anagogical richness and terseness which underpins an entire substitious structure.

Yes, and there is much to learn from it if we look beyond the shadow.

the concepts described are of enormous significance to both our literal reality as humans and our philosophical and spiritual frameworks.

What literal reality can we deduce from a literal interpretation of the Genesis account of creation? Science has long made it obsolete.

what's the basis for this statement in the text?

On the way to the tree of knowledge were the steps to acquire freewill. On the banning of man from the Garden of Eden to preven him from eating of the tree of life was the denial of eternal life. (Gen. 3:22)

perhaps. i don't see, however, what your basis is for assuming that the "tree of life" is about "eternal life"?

That's in Genesis 3:22. The reason why Adam and Eve were banned from the Garden of Eden was to prevent them from eating of tree of life and live forever. To live forever is to have eternal life. That was denied us.

remember, theologically speaking, if one believes in the idea that one's soul continues after death, that is not really at issue. perhaps unusually unlike the greeks, egyptians, assyrians and babylonians, i am not aware that we have ever considered immortality to be something to aspire to; i just don't think that's in our culture.

Right. It is not our culture; but it is an item of the Hellenistic culture adopted by Christianity as a dogma of faith.

on the contrary - if G!D Is G!D, then G!D Is G!D of all - remember, in G!DSpace, to my way of thinking, there's no time, so life and death cannot be separate;

God is not of the dead. If we compare the sun with God in simile, the dead no longer have any part under the sun. (Eccl. 9:6) Yes, in God there is neither time nor space, as He is subject to none. And life and death can indeed be separated by the span of one's life. That's when God is to be searched by the living.

plus, of course, there is considerable Talmudic source material that describes stuff the moses got up to with G!D after his death, including studying Torah, so clearly by that logic the Torah continues to be the "tree of life" after death; but, again, this is just opinion-based casuistry, we have no way of actually *knowing* this stuff.

Talmudic source material is of the sort of midrashim. There is no truth to it if one sticks to the letter. That's of the realm of parables. The Torah cannot be the tree of life for the dead. These no longer can know anything. (Eccl. 9:5)

Ben

 

[donnann]

Yes, and there is much to learn from it if we look beyond the shadow.



What literal reality can we deduce from a literal interpretation of the Genesis account of creation? Science has long made it obsolete.



On the way to the tree of knowledge were the steps to acquire freewill. On the banning of man from the Garden of Eden to preven him from eating of the tree of life was the denial of eternal life. (Gen. 3:22)



That's in Genesis 3:22. The reason why Adam and Eve were banned from the Garden of Eden was to prevent them from eating of tree of life and live forever. To live forever is to have eternal life. That was denied us.



Right. It is not our culture; but it is an item of the Hellenistic culture adopted by Christianity as a dogma of faith.



God is not of the dead. If we compare the sun with God in simile, the dead no longer have any part under the sun. (Eccl. 9:6) Yes, in God there is neither time nor space, as He is subject to none. And life and death can indeed be separated by the span of one's life. That's when God is to be searched by the living.



Talmudic source material is of the sort of midrashim. There is no truth to it if one sticks to the letter. That's of the realm of parables. The Torah cannot be the tree of life for the dead. These no longer can know anything. (Eccl. 9:5)

Ben

What is the definition of a miracle? Its things that happen to the body that has to do with soul and spirit literally that cause changes in some way or occurances that are seal openings and bindings that progress towards the final thing. Whats your definition of a miracle?

 

[Lunitik]

There is no such thing as a miracle, it is simply something which mind does not understand when it happens, and thus awe and wonder is experienced.

Why is man so enamored with such things? They are ultimately meaningless, if there is no audience to see what is the point? Miracles just show you are still in duality, still trying to impress the other. Truth is every second is a miracle, that you are is a miracle, why do you want more?

It is very petty, it is time for man to grow up.

 

[chazz]

A miracle is something that cannot happen, but does happen.

 

[Bhaktajan II]

What minute thing is NOT a miracle?

What act do "You" preform where the potency to do so originates in one's own prowess. A beast runs fast and flies high ---but they think only of their vanity amonst their bretheren only.

All are miracles and one must study its nuances ---ideally specialise in at least one and print up calling cards as a vocation.

What is not a miracle? Your farts are less then a mystery of the laws of nature?

The mundane use of the word miracle ---is the lucky event that aided "your" desires.

Desires are one thing and 'making hay while the Sun shines' is another more sublime thing.

 

[donnann]

What minute thing is NOT a miracle?

What act do "You" preform where the potency to do so originates in one's own prowess. A beast runs fast and flies high ---but they think only of their vanity amonst their bretheren only.

All are miracles and one must study its nuances ---ideally specialise in at least one and print up calling cards as a vocation.

What is not a miracle? Your farts are less then a mystery of the laws of nature?

The mundane use of the word miracle ---is the lucky event that aided "your" desires.

Desires are one thing and 'making hay while the Sun shines' is another more sublime thing.

Miracles are things that occur with the body or bodies that literally have to do with soul and spirit essences , seen events and felt, because the soul and spirits are not one with the bodies.

 

[Ben Masada]

Miracles are things that occur with the body or bodies that literally have to do with soul and spirit essences , seen events and felt, because the soul and spirits are not one with the bodies.

The Definition of a Miracle

What is a miracle? Any dictionary compares it to a wonder, a supernatural deed, a prodigy. And according to religions, it is an act of God. I don't say, according to Theism, because one can be a theist without having to be a religious person. I don't say either, according to the Bible (Tanach), because it must be taken literally for miracles to be a work of God.

According to Baruch de Spinoza, to call a miracle an act of God is to bring God down to the level of an intellect still in the process of evolution. Then, a miracle would be synonymous with weakness in God. What seems to be a miracle for today's generation, could be explained in the next as simply a normal thing that happened, as Albert Einstein said in his book "Out of My Later Years" p. 220. "It is the goal of every activity of the intellect to convert a miracle into something which it has grasped."

How could a miracle be a miracle done by God on earth among men, when, according to Psalm 19:1, the universe, made out of billions of galaxies, and trillions of stars, so harmoniously organized reveals the handiworks of God? If God created the universe and still expands it, or add to it other universes, according to the theory of multi-universes, how could, for instance, the partition of the Red Sea have been a miracle of God?

Here I owe to atheists a footnote for whom to talk about Creation is tantamount to ignorance. Well, the famous astrophysicist Carl Sagan did the same in his book "Cosmos" p. 20, when he missed to add a footnote to the effect that it was according to religion or to the Bible that, "from Creation to the Flood" the period elapsed was of about 432,000 years or about 100 times longer than the OT chronology. The point here is not about the time but about the expression "from Creation to the Flood." Why would he say such thing without a footnote if the concept of probability was not in his mind that the universe or universes could be the work of a Creator?

The bottom line to conclude this thread is that if we contemplate the universe as God's handiwork, nothing done on earth among men is a miracle of God.

Ben

 

[Ben Masada]

There is no such thing as a miracle, it is simply something which mind does not understand when it happens, and thus awe and wonder is experienced.

Why is man so enamored with such things? They are ultimately meaningless, if there is no audience to see what is the point? Miracles just show you are still in duality, still trying to impress the other. Truth is every second is a miracle, that you are is a miracle, why do you want more?

It is very petty, it is time for man to grow up.

Wow! Lunitik, you have hit the nail on the head. It just happens that your last question is in need of some more words to get clear in my mind. I fail to grasp the point that the truth is a miracle, and that the fact that we are is a miracle. To whom, to us? To God it couldn't be.
Ben

 

[Ben Masada]

A miracle is something that cannot happen, but does happen.

IMHO, every thing can happen. It will be a miracle in the eyes of the beholder, who still do not understand what happened and why. With time, the so-called miracle will cease to be, as the mind gets the hold of it.
Ben

 

[Ben Masada]

What minute thing is NOT a miracle?

What act do "You" preform where the potency to do so originates in one's own prowess. A beast runs fast and flies high ---but they think only of their vanity amonst their bretheren only.

All are miracles and one must study its nuances ---ideally specialise in at least one and print up calling cards as a vocation.

What is not a miracle? Your farts are less then a mystery of the laws of nature?

The mundane use of the word miracle ---is the lucky event that aided "your" desires.

Desires are one thing and 'making hay while the Sun shines' is another more sublime thing.

Miracles are conventionalized to be so by faith. Therefore, short-lived till knowledge knocks at the door of one's mind and ignorance ceases to be. Hence the famous saying of the former British Prime Minister Disraeli: "Where knowledge begins, faith ends." Since faith foments ignorance, people perish for lack of knowledge. (Hosea 4:6)
Ben

 

[donnann]

Miracles are conventionalized to be so by faith. Therefore, short-lived till knowledge knocks at the door of one's mind and ignorance ceases to be. Hence the famous saying of the former British Prime Minister Disraeli: "Where knowledge begins, faith ends." Since faith foments ignorance, people perish for lack of knowledge. (Hosea 4:6)
Ben

A miracle involves things of the spirit and soul which is separate from the body and has some kind of resurrection or transformation that occurs when the miracles happen. Thats the definintion of an actual miracle. Through faith you come to truth but faith alone can produce a miracle knowing what god is , love, and wanting to be what you truely are as a child of god....which is a being that is love.

 

[Ben Masada]

A miracle involves things of the spirit and soul which is separate from the body and has some kind of resurrection or transformation that occurs when the miracles happen. Thats the definintion of an actual miracle. Through faith you come to truth but faith alone can produce a miracle knowing what god is , love, and wanting to be what you truely are as a child of god....which is a being that is love.

Can you quote the Tanach where it says that the soul is separate from the body? If you can't, take a look at Genesis 2:7. Whe man was created from the dust of the earth, the Lord breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, he became a living soul. To become is to be. Therefore, man is a soul and not something separated from it. Soul comes from the Hebrew word "nephesh" which is a living person. Once the breath of life is separated from the body, the soul is non-existent.

Miracle. Yes, when a miracle happens is it an act of God or of man?
Ben