Religion of not knowing

[Lunitik]

Your word, your way, and your life, are divided and dismembered. I tell you honestly: this was glaring by the interaction with you, and not merely by the exchange of words here. Make your word, your way, and your life... one, in union.

You think living by the golden rule is being dualistic? I think living by being a hypocrite, is being dualistic.

I respond to the moment, I am utterly discontinuous with the past, yet every response comes from the same point in my being... I don't even think you understand the ramifications of non-dualism, but yes, when you create "other" it is dual. I do not see you as something distinct and separate from me, I experience you as you experience your hand or foot - just a part of the whole. I can observe your thoughts, your feelings, and whether they jive with your words, or your actions. I do not see these as differing phenomenons though, just different expressions of the same energy - when these are torn it is almost painful for me. What I saw in you is that you are very repressed, very inauthentic. You divide yourself, any division is dualism. True advaita, true not-two-ism, non-dualism, doesn't even divide anything of reality, you utterly deny the possibility that trees are part of God, something alive, as God is life - I say they are because I feel them as part of me, your words are theoretical, mine are experiential. You understand things from scripture, but it is not something you have experienced, your experience is quite limited and narrow - you are the least spiritual of all in your house, and it is because you think you know the most.

 

[Lunitik]

"Conscientious Objector" is a very fitting title for you...

Conscientious is the Golden Rule, something you live by and place on a high mantel. Objector is something absolutely negative, it is a state of "no", it is utterly of ego, because only the ego can say "no". The ego has to fight to survive, if there is nothing to define it by it will simply die, so it will go on looking for things to show its distinction, opportunities to assert itself.

You have to look at this, what is your true motivation? You have boasted to me that you have been banned from this site in the past, you continuously talk about the past because you still cling to it, it is how you define yourself. Let go of it and see if you can maintain this insistence to reject everything. It will be difficult because in your "no" you are subconsciously defending your past, you want to justify the choices you have made. It is worse than any physical addiction because it goes far deeper into your being, it is more dangerous because you cannot see it.

 

[Lunitik]

The whole point of religion is to re-bind the divisions, to realize all is actually one, and we call that state of oneness as God. The objective is to experience oneness howsoever you can manage, and every religion goes about it in different ways. In Buddhism and Jainism there is no God, yet still you are to come to a point where you realize there is no separation. In simplistic terms, it doesn't seem like there should be a religion without a God, but it is because we have a wrong idea of what God is. In Advaitism, eventually we are introduced to Ishwara - it is the personality of God, but it is beautiful because it admits it is Maya - illusion, how else to interact? It has to be understood, but it is impossible unless we understand the nature of oneness, the absolute absence of all division.

"No" is the creation of division, it is as the stone creating ripples in the ocean, but eventually it becomes a huge wave, still it is merely a temporary phenomenon. How violent the tsunami, and yet it too eventually merges back into the ocean as if it never was - all phenomenon dies eventually, find out that part in you which does not die, that only watches the phenomenon, if you can touch that you will experience oneness, that pure love and utter bliss. Even in the chaos of a cyclone, the center is absolutely still, find that and you will understand why all those who know say silence is golden. The Bible says in the beginning was the word, no, before the word there was silence and the word has arisen out of it. What is the nature of the silence? This is what you must find, yet even your God has tried to avoid it by creating a world in it, will you have the nerve to face it?

 

[radarmark]

Thanks, Snoopy, the essay is quite enlightening. Luecy7, an experience is an actual occasion, so of course confession counts, all "things" count--both material and mental.

 

[Thomas]

I do not judge at all, I comment on nonsense, trying to direct it back to truth.

The truth as you see it ...

Sadly, it seems to me that all you demonstrate is that you are not at peace at all with yourself, hence you contend with so many others here on what they believe.

Please understand, I do not contend with you about what you believe, I contend with you over false representations of what I and other Christians believe, and I post to inform others that your assumptions and prejudices against Christianity are unfounded.

Do you think God is Christian? Do you think he wants you to emulate Jesus? It is not so, he wants you to find your own way to him, to love him directly and completely, so much that you realize you are not at all because you are merged with him fully.

Your ego in assuming you know what I and others think knows no bounds.

I'm sorry, but it would appear you seek to lecture me on the one point that I constantly make here — participation in the Divine does not thereby allow the participant to declare themselves divine — so please, keep your commentaries on Christianity to yourself, they do you no favours, but simply illuminate how much you are nowhere near as knowledgeable as you claim to be.

Jesus says "follow me", and if you understood that, within the context of Scripture, then you might learn much. However, as you've often declared Scripture to be nonsense, it's evident that your prejudice has blinded you to the luminosity of the spiritual ideas present in the text, let alone the Way to their realisation.

... ultimately you realize there is no distinct entity which is God, you yourself are the divine.

Then 'divine' as you understand it is relative and conditional, and indeed cosmological, which I think I pointed out to you a long time ago.

So you might be talking of your experience of the divine, but it's not mine.

Divine as I know it is metacosmic, Absolute and Infinite, it cannot 'not know' Itself, that would render it finite, relative and dependent, which in my book is no definition of the divine at all.

Again, this is a common delusion regarding the gift of being — and it's founded in the ego, which seeks to possess the gift as its own right and property.

God is Immanently present in and to creation, through and through. God furthermore invites all created nature to participate in its own 'Life' or 'Being' — God's absoluteness and infinity. This invitation is itself absolute and infinite and, as such, unconditional.

So when the invitation is accepted, then all distinction indeed disappears — but they are nevertheless real in their own domain, but this reality is obscured because the individual experience is intrinsic and not extrinsic ... we will know as we are known, so we know from the inside out, as it were, rather from the outside in.

We will see what God sees, to put it simply, but that does not make us God, but rather recipients of an unrivalled Gift.

The mark being the simple fact that one can return.

According to your thesis, the extinction of the person is a pre-requisite of enlightenment ... there was God and you, now there is only God ...

This cannot happen when you uphold your identifications though, you have to die for the divine to live in you.

That's a pity ... what use is a dead Lunitik to God or anyone else? What was the point of Lunitik in the first place?

Your god seems to demand your extinction, which is no union at all, whereas my God invites participation, which is a union without compare.

Furthermore my God seeks me to act, because I choose to, in loco parentis in the here and now, not to escape the here and now ... that's just an offence against nature.

This is my experience, that which was born of this body is dead, only God resides here now.

Silly, do you really think God needs automatons, zombies, dead bodies? Why would God choose to live in an empty house?

The divine does not need you for its own life, and it certainly does not need dead things, either.

It's a shame. This cosmos is theophany, if only you could only see it, and that is our field of operation, nothing else in creation can do what we do, not even angels. We really are (potentially) very, very good.

God bless,

Thomas

 

[Lunitik]

The truth as you see it ...

There is no "you" here, this is the mistake you make when addressing me.

Again, this is a common delusion regarding the gift of being — and it's founded in the ego, which seeks to possess the gift as its own right and property.

The ego must die for God to reside here, the ego was born of this body, it has formed from the identification with form. It is not a dead body, material is as much of God as anything else, only the ego is the persons creation when they forget what they are.

According to your thesis, the extinction of the person is a pre-requisite of enlightenment ... there was God and you, now there is only God ...

Enlightenment is the realization that the person was false all along, only God ever was.

That's a pity ... what use is a dead Lunitik to God or anyone else? What was the point of Lunitik in the first place?

The human form permits God to interact with himself in this place, to experience directly what he has created. Each are a particular query into himself, but each has the ability to stop and remember if they should please - it usually means the query has not been fulfilling or convincing.

Your god seems to demand your extinction, which is no union at all, whereas my God invites participation, which is a union without compare.

Furthermore my God seeks me to act, because I choose to, in loco parentis in the here and now, not to escape the here and now ... that's just an offence against nature.

There is only one God, one life in many expressions. You do not see truth because you enjoy your dream, but do not divide God into Gods simply because you dislike a particular truth of what is. This is utterly ego, if you look at it. You have molded God to your own fancy and created an idol out of your imaginings. It doesn't matter what you want reality to be like, it is a matter of knowing what it really is.

Look at some statements from Jesus about him not being the doer, about simply doing as God directs him, always he takes the attention away from the form. I say the same, except that I say it is the natural state for all human beings, that Jesus is a particular flowering but there are currently over 7 billion seeds in the world with the same potential. This is the true state of taking on the Holy Spirit and doing God's will over your own, it is a permanent condition where you feel you are being animated. It is actually always the case, but usually we identify with the movements and thoughts and believe they are our own.

You speak of union, yet you actually mean something like team work, see that I am talking about absolute unity, a merging and a melting of all distinction. There is no higher union possible than to become one with that.

The divine does not need you for its own life, and it certainly does not need dead things, either.

It also doesn't need Jesus to bring us back to him, yet it is so according to 2.5 billion Christians. We are naught but vehicles of the divine, God has no form and so he has created beings which he can interact through. For me, existing distinct from God for all eternity would be absolute hell, yet this is what Christians pander for. It is naught but the ego and survival instinct intertwining, understand the truth and you realize there is nothing which can die that is worth protecting - you can simply enjoy this place without taking anything seriously, it is just a game, a play of existence.

 

[luecy7]

"Conscientious Objector" is a very fitting title for you...

Conscientious is the Golden Rule, something you live by and place on a high mantel. Objector is something absolutely negative, it is a state of "no", it is utterly of ego, because only the ego can say "no". The ego has to fight to survive, if there is nothing to define it by it will simply die, so it will go on looking for things to show its distinction, opportunities to assert itself.

You behaved as the conscientious objector, claiming that I do not respect people, and telling me to immediately send you back to where you came from. You did not wish to obey me for anything as you claimed it felt like death to your freedom, but I did obey you by promptly sending you to where you desired to go, at our expense.

As I told you last summer, I would be disappointed if you did not judge. You claimed then that I would be disappointed, but as I also told you... I knew how to get to know you, and indeed I did get to know a bit or two about you.

You understand things from scripture, but it is not something you have experienced, your experience is quite limited and narrow - you are the least spiritual of all in your house, and it is because you think you know the most.

... and look how much you claim to have learned about me! Perhaps you are correct, or perhaps you have fabricated yet another dishonest lie from what you feel and wish people to believe. Either way, you do know that there is nothing that you can do to add or remove from my experience and relationship with God.

Even in the chaos of a cyclone, the center is absolutely still, find that and you will understand why all those who know say silence is golden.

Ah yes... Taz.

On this thread you have said that it would be best for you, that we do not exchange any more words. Since silence is what you want, silence you will receive from me, and it seems perhaps the only thing you have received.

 

[Lunitik]

You behaved as the conscientious objector, claiming that I do not respect people, and telling me to immediately send you back to where you came from. You did not wish to obey me for anything as you claimed it felt like death to your freedom, but I did obey you by promptly sending you to where you desired to go, at our expense.

As I told you last summer, I would be disappointed if you did not judge. You claimed then that I would be disappointed, but as I also told you... I knew how to get to know you, and indeed I did get to know a bit or two about you.

I state facts, you dispute without any knowing of your own.

... and look how much you claim to have learned about me! Perhaps you are correct, or perhaps you have fabricated yet another dishonest lie from what you feel and wish people to believe. Either way, you do know that there is nothing that you can do to add or remove from my experience and relationship with God.

You say you have a relationship with God, have you asked what his name is? Have you asked why he has created all that is? I would like to posit it is not God at all, just a being filled with the same desires as you, maybe just a figment of your imagination.

You cannot relate with God, you can only encounter it.

On this thread you have said that it would be best for you, that we do not exchange any more words. Since silence is what you want, silence you will receive from me, and it seems perhaps the only thing you have received.

Silence is the ultimate.