Religion of not knowing

[Lunitik]

Yes, you restricted yourself to mere conversation. Relationships are much more than that.

For you, relationships remain periphery, you just build familiarity and dependence and call it love.

I know the expression that was presented to me: selfishness, apathy, sloth, and a physical dependence on several addictive mind altering drugs. What did you say of the police car on the street? "There is a snitch in your neighborhood." You expressed and revealed yourself in so many ways.

You idiot, religion itself is about altering the mind, growing consciousness... it is the whole draw of drugs, this is the only change in consciousness available to most people because we reject the real thing, substituting it for naught but poison - aka organized religion.

I tried to share myself with you, you cut me down at every attempt, I fully understand why you consider me selfish but understand it was a response to you. Same with apathy, I simply gave up on you when you disputed anything of true depth. As for sloth, when did I have an opportunity for anything else? Do you think I simply picked up running that day? You think me lazy because you made it impossible to do anything constructive. You have even become angry because I didn't want to sit in an office for hours on end...

As for the police car, am I supposed to celebrate the governments agents of control? This is supposed to be a free society, but it is nothing of the sort. It is just like slavery, all money ends up back with the government where it originated, there is only the illusion of freedom now. Still, we are utterly controlled, utterly at the whim of men on ego trips. Politics is nothing but the ultimate ego trip, yet the entire society permits it, fighting among themselves instead of realizing it is all bull.

Divide and conquer, the oldest tricks are sometimes the best tricks. Society consists of the defeated not even putting up a fight, revolutions happen, and still they just replace the old with the new, nothing really changes. Repeating the same mistakes and expecting different results was the first sign of insanity last I checked... humans are collectively insane.

 

[wil]

Lunitik,

I haven't read thru the entire thread...it moved on from not knowing to folks insisting on the fact that they seem to know everything and insisting on telling folks what everything is without knowing exact circumstances...

So it appeared to become the definition of not knowing rather than a discussion on not knowing and I lost interest.

That being said I see your last post started with "You idiot" Now it is my opinion that not only does talk like that not benefit discussion, but also is more of an indication of the frustration of the poster than the object of the insult.

I'd like to request we learn to play nicely and engage in discussion as adults...

Is it possible? I'm not knowing.

 

[Lunitik]

We need a society that is structured around growing consciousness, but today society is basically about retarding it, creating biorobots to work for those in power. People have simply accepted that this is the way life is, they are simply to work to make a particular identification - their country - more powerful. This is not the point of life at all, the point of life is love, to realize you are an expression of pure love and nothing more, you are yourself divine but you are not interested in realizing it, you even deny it because those using anothers divinity for their own power convinced you it wasn't possible - that you are a lowly sheep, a slave to the Sheppard. It is only possible because you are convinced of duality, and yet this too has been taught to you by religion and government.

 

[Lunitik]

Lunitik,

I haven't read thru the entire thread...it moved on from not knowing to folks insisting on the fact that they seem to know everything and insisting on telling folks what everything is without knowing exact circumstances...

So it appeared to become the definition of not knowing rather than a discussion on not knowing and I lost interest.

That being said I see your last post started with "You idiot" Now it is my opinion that not only does talk like that not benefit discussion, but also is more of an indication of the frustration of the poster than the object of the insult.

I'd like to request we learn to play nicely and engage in discussion as adults...

Is it possible? I'm not knowing.

I do not see how your involvement is going to affect anything?

I have said it as a matter of emphasis, right and wrong are fabrications, yet he has sold utterly into those which society has fed him. The mind wants to categorize everything, yet I go on saying that this has to be overcome, you have to go beyond this peripheral nonsense. What is worse, you have acted here to support it, which is how the whole process is reinforced... people actually start correcting each other, they enforce what the powers want. If everyone is convinced of a certain thing, people will begin accepting this view despite its actual lack of merit. It is true that men are basically as sheep, but my effort is to create lions that are still gentle enough to love the infant sheep.

What word would you have me use for this? For me 'idiot' is fitting and honest, but I am open to suggestion.

 

[wil]

Namaste Lunitik,

Which of the following do you desire to retract?

This is not the point of life at all, the point of life is love, to realize you are an expression of pure love and nothing more.

You idiot, religion itself is about altering the mind, growing consciousness...

 

[wil]

I do not see how your involvement is going to affect anything?

For me 'idiot' is fitting and honest, but I am open to suggestion.

Is it loving?

Does it make your statements and thoughts more powerful or weaken them?

Does it prove your point, is it in line with your purported beliefs?

You tell me.

 

[Lunitik]

Namaste Lunitik,

Which of the following do you desire to retract?

You do not see that they are not in conflict.

 

[Lunitik]

Is it loving?

Does it make your statements and thoughts more powerful or weaken them?

Does it prove your point, is it in line with your purported beliefs?

You tell me.

Yes it is loving, when you chastise a child, is there an absence of love in it?

Jesus says God is love, yet the same God has told Abraham to kill his son, has destroyed cities and indeed the entirety of life on this planet. Jesus himself has exploded in the temple and cursed a fig tree, yet Jesus' statement is absolute: God is love.

Why have people become so simply minded? This world is not black and white, it is a multitude of grays. It is time to grow up...

 

[Lunitik]

The love is in the intent, not in the expression... again, man remains too much on the periphery.

 

[luecy7]

You idiot...

If you find yourself needing help, be free to call me.

You can also call me an idiot any time you wish. In some instances I personally find it rather fitting. I do hope the word police leave you alone.

 

[Lunitik]

If you find yourself needing help, be free to call me.

You can also call me an idiot any time you wish. In some instances I personally find it rather fitting. I do hope the word police leave you alone.

I still am unsure what help you think you can offer?

For me, we should just stop our dialog altogether, you are content with limitation and I am a greedy bastard that wants every drop of energy existence is willing to confer to me. You are rich in this place, I am rich in the other, our priorities differ greatly.

It is humorous that absolutely nothing has changed, yet we continue, why? It is because these too have to be transcended, a man should be rich in both, but we both reject the others wealth as unworthy of attention. Opposites always attract, it is the law, but I see no bridge. You are completely submitted to duality and worldly desires, I have tasted of nonduality and am interested in nothing more than residing in it.

 

[luecy7]

I still am unsure what help you think you can offer?

What kind of help do you think would be good for you? I have no interest in being a conferring drug dealer.

 

[radarmark]

Let us get back to Garo's original point. Can there be a spiritual community of not knowing? Yes, with some qualifications. The Sudden School (Ch'an Zen) can be considered a model. Of those that practice, most do not know. The knowing is a conjoining with the Tathagatha (one who has gone beyond and one who has come from beyond).

What does the non-arrived practitioner see? A notion of the true Buddah. What does the non-arrived practitioner do? Realize the true Buddah. Does it take knowledge or faith to do this? No, one may be totally agnostic about the Path and still arrive. Why? The knowing does not matter, it is the experience.

The same can be said of any other mythical-mystical path. Does Daoism demand knowledge? Not when the Master does not know if he is a butterfly dreaming of himself or himself dreaming of a butterfly. Does Sufism demand knowledge? Not when a founder said you know of the how I the how-less. Does Christian mysticism demand knowledge? Not when one of its lights wrote to be full of things [knowing] is to be empty of God. To be empty of things [knowing] is to be full of God.

Not knowing can be spiritual, and perhaps it is the key to the one essence Chungzi. Rabia and Eckhardt found.

 

[luecy7]

Does Christian mysticism demand knowledge? Not when one of its lights wrote to be full of things [knowing] is to be empty of God. To be empty of things [knowing] is to be full of God.

Not knowing can be spiritual, and perhaps it is the key to the one essence Chungzi. Rabia and Eckhardt found.

You are sure?

Some verses may need rewritten: Good man, thy cup runneth empty. Love God with all of thy heart, soul, and ignorance. Confess not sin, confess ignorance. Perceive nothing other than the ritual baptism of cups, pots, pans, hands, and empty cranium. Great joy shall be in the heaven over one sinner claiming to not know, rather than ninety-nine reforming. WE the empty, are the ones who truly see. I shall leave these pigs and return to my father to say, "I do NOT know if it is I who sinned or not... you created me." Therefore from their fruits you will NOT know them. So Jesus will acknowledge to them, "I never knew you, so depart you mystical law abiding citizens."

Perhaps a few dualities for consideration: Watch, Do. Speak, Hear. Guide, Pray. Teach, Learn. Confess, Forgive. Think, Act. Sacrifice, Freedom. When a person has chosen one of the behaviors as an extreme over the other, I submit that they have already broken the golden rule. Whether I am right, or wrong: Perceive, or do not perceive, at your own risk.

 

[radarmark]

Of course I am not sure. Your list of dualities is quite good, but (IMHO) none require knowing.

 

[Lunitik]

Perhaps a few dualities for consideration:

Watch, Do. Speak, Hear. These are interactions within duality, when there is not two, they mean nothing.

Guide, Pray. Prayer is often misunderstood by Christians. Jesus continuously goes away for long periods to pray, yet Christians think he is talking to God. This is strange because they say he is God, then who is he talking to? No, prayer is a state of gratitude and love, not a sequence of requests. It is actually meditation that is described when Jesus leaves to be alone and pray.

Teach, Learn. Confess, Forgive. Again, only relevant where there is two.

Think, Act. Thinking and action is not actually that different, you only perceive it so because you distinguish inner from outer. You create a duality here, see that they are one: thought is merely inner action.

Sacrifice, Freedom. How do you consider these dualities? If you are sacrificing, you are exercising your freedom to do so. If you are sacrificed against your will, it is something else. Still you are free to choose how you face it... they are simply unrelated.

When a person has chosen one of the behaviors as an extreme over the other, I submit that they have already broken the golden rule. Whether I am right, or wrong: Perceive, or do not perceive, at your own risk.

The Golden Rule is fundamentally dualistic, it brings in "other" in every incantation I have seen. It is perfectly good to accomplish an environment of respect, but it is not very spiritual. Indeed, it has come as the result of the first ever Interfaith dialog in Chicago around the turn of the 1900's, it is a grounds for discussion, but that very discussion can only exist because they understand they do not agree - it is a way to remain apart, not a way to unite.

 

[Lunitik]

Instead of trying to think of dualities, try to consider oneness first... you say you are interested in Islam and Christianity, both say God is one, dualities keep us from God because they are not one - they are divided.

The whole purpose of religion, you can say, is to find the true individual, that which cannot be divided. Thus you have to go along merging or dropping the extremes until you arrive at absolute oneness... now what is there? If even I and thou is dropped, this and that, inner and outer, everything, what remains?

It is not helpful to compile a list of dualities, simply find the one which pervades all, there you will find God.

 

[Lunitik]

Also, I will say that islam is an Arab word meaning "surrender", Christ resides in a state of absolute unity, oneness.

Surrender to the one, but you do not, you cling to worldly things.

Muhammad is perfectly correct, this is the only religion that has ever existed... you have to be utterly surrendered, and then religion happens, rebinding, merging with the Source. Jesus has said the same, he says you must drop your own will and accept the will of God, it is the same as saying you must surrender. In that surrender, you melt into existence, then you taste of true life.

You are the only barrier: when you are not, God is.

 

[radarmark]

The religious practitioners (Hasidim and other Jewish mystics, the Christian Mystics, the Sufi) in Abrahamistic religions wander a well-worn path from dualism to unity (there is not but G!d) to pure consciousness ("there is no G!d"). There are practices that are defined that you can dedicate your life to (whirling, Greek monastic chanting, Kabbalah).

In the end they more or less all end at the same place, the Oneness of All. Perhaps one can arrive there with just a Sudden Revelation while living an otherwise normal life. At least that is the promise of Hui-Neng and George Fox. Self-consciousness dissapears and consciousness is.

 

[Lunitik]

The religious practitioners (Hasidim and other Jewish mystics, the Christian Mystics, the Sufi) in Abrahamistic religions wander a well-worn path from dualism to unity (there is not but G!d) to pure consciousness ("there is no G!d"). There are practices that are defined that you can dedicate your life to (whirling, Greek monastic chanting, Kabbalah).

In the end they more or less all end at the same place, the Oneness of All. Perhaps one can arrive there with just a Sudden Revelation while living an otherwise normal life. At least that is the promise of Hui-Neng and George Fox. Self-consciousness dissapears and consciousness is.

Yes, when engaging with all sorts of dogma and other irrelevancy, when wasting time practicing certain disciplines, certainly it can take a long time. I am in agreement with Hui-Neng and George Fox - who both have probably simply shared my reading of Naropa (I believe it is, the founder of the Buddhist Tantra line) to arrive at this.

Everything is merely to find your own way to this basic truth, everything is building trust and trying not to shock. It can happen this moment if you let it, then you needn't engage in nonsense - the sooner you realize, the less time you waste searching, and thus the more time you have to enjoy the present, the overwhelming love of it, true happiness. It is always the case though, finally it clicks, and it is instantaneous that you are in the beyond, it is never gradual, only creating the environment is gradual, always you cross a threshold and all is one - faster than the clicking of fingers.