God or man? Yield or work?

[Gatekeeper]

I've been having a discussion on another board about "work" and what our relationship is to godly "work". It was suggested that we work, that we plow, that we do! My view is that it is God who is doing the plowing, it is God who is doing the work. We are are simply being worked by God as his vessels. For example: When you yoke an oxen, and you plow a field using the oxen, who do say plowed the field? You or the oxen? You were the one who placed the yoke on its shoulders, you are the one who guided its steps, you are the one who made the oxen turn, stop, and start again. Who is doing the plowing? You or the beast?


God places his yoke on us, and we yield to God just as the oxen would yield to us. The oxen is being worked, but the oxen is not working, he is merely yielding. The same is true for us. We are being worked, but we ourselves are not working, but rather we are yielding to God. When you yoke an oxen, does the yielding end there, or does the oxen continue to yield as his master drives him? Until the yoke is removed, the oxen is under the control of its master.


It's not what we do, but what God does through us. It's all God; we merely submit to his control. Continual surrender leads to a continual transformation, or rather a continual renewing of our minds by the Spirit. We really don't work at all, but rather we surrender ourselves to God completely. Once we have the desire to surrender to God and deny self, we are eventually humbled enough to submit to his will, he then extends his grace to us, building us up to be vessels of His love.


God does the work in us, whereby we are given the capacity to love even our enemies. He is the vine dresser after all, and we the branches. He is the potter; we are the clay. We play no part in our salvation, but we [are] responsible when it comes to submitting to him, we are responsible for surrendering ourselves completely that he might have his work in us.


But alas, the Spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak, which is why so many keep resisting God's hand in their lives and never become the vessels they were born to be. Jesus' yoke is placed upon us. We can resist, or we can yield to God who controls the reigns of the yoke. What we do after God takes control is his work done through us as his vessels.


"We are the vessels! We are the clay! God is the potter in whom we obey!"



These are simply my views on the matter. I'd like to hear the views of others as well. In your view, who gets the glory, God or man? Do we work or are we simply yielding to God as love?

 

[Lunitik]

I like it!

In Zen it is said the human is the hollow bamboo, it is molded and a flute is made, then it is existence itself who plays the music.

You are a witness, do not be attached to the activity, merely observe that it is happening - for this, first you will need to realize you are the witness, this is the creation of the beautiful flute. It does not mean be against work, to be against you will have to swim against the current of life, you will be against existence. It simply means you have no involvement in it, you simply permit it to occur.

How to know the witness? For me, it was in realizing what I am not, observing phenomenon in myself and understanding the phenomenon has arisen and is being watched by me - thus I cannot be that. With false identifications dropped, what remains? Look and see, then you needn't create something logical to explain it - it is your reality.

Also, please look at this concept of "God", what is it really? It is something you cling to, you believe it, but what is that which this belief has arisen in? Find out the nature of that, then the sought is found and you will see how stupid your seeking has been. They are the same, the seeker and the sought are not separate, have never been distinct. The Beloved and the lover have never been apart. Do not believe me though, then you fall into the same old trap: look and see for yourself!

 

[NiceCupOfTea]

I've been having a discussion on another board about "work" and what our relationship is to godly "work". It was suggested that we work, that we plow, that we do! My view is that it is God who is doing the plowing, it is God who is doing the work. We are are simply being worked by God as his vessels. For example: When you yoke an oxen, and you plow a field using the oxen, who do say plowed the field? You or the oxen? You were the one who placed the yoke on its shoulders, you are the one who guided its steps, you are the one who made the oxen turn, stop, and start again. Who is doing the plowing? You or the beast?


God places his yoke on us, and we yield to God just as the oxen would yield to us. The oxen is being worked, but the oxen is not working, he is merely yielding. The same is true for us. We are being worked, but we ourselves are not working, but rather we are yielding to God. When you yoke an oxen, does the yielding end there, or does the oxen continue to yield as his master drives him? Until the yoke is removed, the oxen is under the control of its master.


It's not what we do, but what God does through us. It's all God; we merely submit to his control. Continual surrender leads to a continual transformation, or rather a continual renewing of our minds by the Spirit. We really don't work at all, but rather we surrender ourselves to God completely. Once we have the desire to surrender to God and deny self, we are eventually humbled enough to submit to his will, he then extends his grace to us, building us up to be vessels of His love.


God does the work in us, whereby we are given the capacity to love even our enemies. He is the vine dresser after all, and we the branches. He is the potter; we are the clay. We play no part in our salvation, but we [are] responsible when it comes to submitting to him, we are responsible for surrendering ourselves completely that he might have his work in us.


But alas, the Spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak, which is why so many keep resisting God's hand in their lives and never become the vessels they were born to be. Jesus' yoke is placed upon us. We can resist, or we can yield to God who controls the reigns of the yoke. What we do after God takes control is his work done through us as his vessels.


"We are the vessels! We are the clay! God is the potter in whom we obey!"



These are simply my views on the matter. I'd like to hear the views of others as well. In your view, who gets the glory, God or man? Do we work or are we simply yielding to God as love?

in the Christianity that I have been involved in people talk of the anointing of the Holy Spirit.

With the anointing of the Holy Spirit we can do amazing things, like Jesus did healing, miracles etc.

When Heaven Invades Earth: A ... - Bill Johnson - Google Books

 

[wil]

All is G!d in my view. The initiative, the yolk, the plow, the earth, the ox, and you, physical representations of G!d in 3D.

Does 1D exist? 2D? 4D? 5,10,20D? Some realms we cannot see, this one, right now, we see and play in, but it is all G!d teaching our being about this plane of existence, preparing us for the next. We are G!ds expression, growing, glowing, plowing.

 

[radarmark]

Brava, wil and gatekeeper! I quite agree! IMO there is only G!d, both the Kosmos (everything that exists) and the Beyond (Tathagata) are one.

 

[Princely]

The Lord says this;

The wicked man has no righteousness; but the just man, because of his faith, shall live.

Seek the Lord, all you humble of the earth, who have observed his law; Seek justice, seek humility; perhaps you may be sheltered on the day of the Lord’s anger.

I will change and purify the lips of the peoples, That they may all call upon the name of the Lord, to serve him with one accord;

Thus says the Lord of hosts Render true judgment, and show kindness and compassion toward each other.

They shall be my people, and I will be their God, with faithfulness and justice.
These then are the things you should do: Speak the truth to one another; let there be honesty and peace in the judgments at your gates,

This is the work of God , having faith in the One he sent.

What I just did for you is the work of God. Spreading the word of the Lord is the work of God ,and by doing this I have faith in the One He sent.

 

[Gatekeeper]

in the Christianity that I have been involved in people talk of the anointing of the Holy Spirit.

With the anointing of the Holy Spirit we can do amazing things, like Jesus did healing, miracles etc.

When Heaven Invades Earth: A ... - Bill Johnson - Google Books

Lovely!


Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.


Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father


Would you then say that we do the works, or that God does them through us?

 

[Princely]

Lovely!


Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.


Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father


Would you then say that we do the works, or that God does them through us?

God is doing His works through His servant, the son and the son is doing His Fathers works. So both.

Scripture says and I do as well;

My Father is at work , so I am at work as well.

The words that I speak to you I do not speak on my own. The Lord who lives in me is doing his works.

Believe me that I am in the Lord and the Lord is in me, or else, believe because of the works themselves.
Truly I say to you, whoever believes in me will do the works that I do, and will do greater ones than these

 

[NiceCupOfTea]

Lovely!


Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.


Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father


Would you then say that we do the works, or that God does them through us?

the works that I am talking about are supernatural Signs Wonders and Miracles, I dont think the power comes from us, but it gets confusing as Christians are supposed to have the Holy Spirit Living Inside of them, so you could say that the power comes from within, but its not from us, really I dont think anyone really know for sure.

 

[Gatekeeper]

the works that I am talking about are supernatural Signs Wonders and Miracles, I dont think the power comes from us, but it gets confusing as Christians are supposed to have the Holy Spirit Living Inside of them, so you could say that the power comes from within, but its not from us, really I dont think anyone really know for sure.

I agree, the power comes from God, not us. We merely become God's vessels when we yield to his will.

 

[wil]

I agree, the power comes from God, not us. We merely become God's vessels when we yield to his will.

G!d can only do for us what G!d can do through us.

or to paraphrase

Why call me good, I am nothing without the father...

the works that I am talking about are supernatural Signs Wonders and Miracles, I dont think the power comes from us, but it gets confusing as Christians are supposed to have the Holy Spirit Living Inside of them, so you could say that the power comes from within, but its not from us, really I dont think anyone really know for sure.

that is worth repeating....

really I dont think anyone really know for sure

and so it is, ameen.

but is it confusing, the spirit is within, but it is when we think we are doing, or we are knowing, that is when it is confusing. We are one. It isn't me, it is us. It isn't him, it is us.

Our eyes differentiate from the primordial soup....as we exhale, is that us, that is now in the air, as the plant absorbs it, is it us, or the plant?

If I meet you ten years from now, is anything there of you, that I knew ten years prior....any cell at all in the same location? We can't step in the same river twice, yet we are the river.

 

[Gatekeeper]

G!d can only do for us what G!d can do through us.

or to paraphrase

Why call me good, I am nothing without the father...



that is worth repeating....

really I dont think anyone really know for sure

and so it is, ameen.

but is it confusing, the spirit is within, but it is when we think we are doing, or we are knowing, that is when it is confusing. We are one. It isn't me, it is us. It isn't him, it is us.

Our eyes differentiate from the primordial soup....as we exhale, is that us, that is now in the air, as the plant absorbs it, is it us, or the plant?

If I meet you ten years from now, is anything there of you, that I knew ten years prior....any cell at all in the same location? We can't step in the same river twice, yet we are the river.

I think we labor, but also that our labors aren't always of our own doing. I'm pretty sure we are all born innocent, as angels who are pure as the morning dew, but the world quickly takes that innocence away from us, and we begin to live with selfish ambition.


In order to regain the innocence we new as children, I think it is required that we yield to God's love completely, whereby we are born again [of] love. By doing so, we in a sense become that innocent child again, we become a child of God.


It is my desire to yield to love in all I do, allowing love to guide my steps. Even so, I'm a sinner (and a saint) but I am no longer an angel as I've certainly done my share of wrong. I aim for right, but I'm only human. I have my faults and those faults are my own to bear. My hope it to regain that state of innocence I knew as a child, to become as Jesus was.


Will, do you think it possible?

 

[salishan]

We are simply being worked by God as his vessels.

For example: When you yoke an oxen, and you plow a field using the oxen, who do say plowed the field? You or the oxen? You were the one who placed the yoke on its shoulders, you are the one who guided its steps, you are the one who made the oxen turn, stop, and start again. Who is doing the plowing? You or the beast?

"We are the vessels! We are the clay! God is the potter in whom we obey!"

Gatekeeper
exquisite creature

i think each of us (at one time or another) have wondered
am i the instrument of forces larger than myself ?

this paints a lovely picture of one's personal existence

Marxists have taken this picture of things as a matter of faith
that the individual is merely an instrument of historical forces
leading to an inevitable socialist utopia

Abraham Lincoln (facing the daily slaughter of the American Civil War)
takes heart from reading Hegel , seeing the Civil War
(& his role in it) as trial by fire to heal a deep national scar

still (to me) there is something a little too emotionally self-serving
(too easy) in this "surrender" of my free-will & my sense of responsibility

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

u'r metaphors , Gatekeeper
(both ox pulling a plow , & potter shaping the human)
are not new
are at least 5000 years old

having begun to domesticate plants & animals
(10,000 years ago) to serve human needs
these new agrarian peoples begin (at some point) to wonder
whose needs are we humans serving ?
who domesticated us ?

& the polytheistic gods come into existence
(there is some basic need in humans for "humility")

Enlil is chief amongst the Sumerian gods , but Enki
(like Zeus & Yahweh) is a clever bugger

Oh my son , arise from u'r bed , from u'r slumber , work cleverly
Fashion servants for the gods , that they may produce our bread
Nammu says to her sleeping son , Enki (in the Sumerian creation myth)

Enki then arises & fashions the first human
("Adapu" , or "Adamu")
out of clay upon his potter's wheel

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

sorry , Gatekeeper
though it is a lovely "vision of human purpose"
(surrendering to forces larger than u'r self)
this happens to be an ancient ancient vision

humanity has
been there , done that !

the Monotheism which developed 2500 years ago
(by Judean prophets) accepts some of this vision
but (rightly &) pointedly rejects most of its trappings
(the "Adamu" of Genesis 2 is kicked out of the Garden)
humans have a slightly different destiny (in Yahweh's universe)

the relationship to the Divine
is of a much different nature
(product of a much more complicated covenant)

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Judaic & Christian & Islamic monotheism
bespeaks a far more sophisticated vision of human destiny
than (merely) surfing on god's wave
(free-will & personal responsibility count for something , to the prophets)

doing good work (doing god's work) is not enough

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

but , beyond Monotheism

(to me) u sometimes have to (actively) pursue things
which make no sense at all , (an artist's piety)
to pursue

some vague purpose , which reaches
even beyond the puritanical pieties which Monotheism sanctions
beyond good work , yes (but also)
beyond free-will & personal responsibility

i am talking about something far-other than "pretty metaphors" here !
(deep spirituality)

breaching the limits

 

[Gatekeeper]

Gatekeeper
exquisite creature

i think each of us (at one time or another) have wondered
am i the instrument of forces larger than myself ?

this paints a lovely picture of one's personal existence

Marxists have taken this picture of things as a matter of faith
that the individual is merely an instrument of historical forces
leading to an inevitable socialist utopia

Abraham Lincoln (facing the daily slaughter of the American Civil War)
takes heart from reading Hegel , seeing the Civil War
(& his role in it) as trial by fire to heal a deep national scar

still (to me) there is something a little too emotionally self-serving
(too easy) in this "surrender" of my free-will & my sense of responsibility

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

u'r metaphors , Gatekeeper
(both ox pulling a plow , & potter shaping the human)
are not new
are at least 5000 years old

having begun to domesticate plants & animals
(10,000 years ago) to serve human needs
these new agrarian peoples begin (at some point) to wonder
whose needs are we humans serving ?
who domesticated us ?

& the polytheistic gods come into existence
(there is some basic need in humans for "humility")

Enlil is chief amongst the Sumerian gods , but Enki
(like Zeus & Yahweh) is a clever bugger

Oh my son , arise from u'r bed , from u'r slumber , work cleverly
Fashion servants for the gods , that they may produce our bread
Nammu says to her sleeping son , Enki (in the Sumerian creation myth)

Enki then arises & fashions the first human
("Adapu" , or "Adamu")
out of clay upon his potter's wheel

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

sorry , Gatekeeper
though it is a lovely "vision of human purpose"
(surrendering to forces larger than u'r self)
this happens to be an ancient ancient vision

humanity has
been there , done that !

the Monotheism which developed 2500 years ago
(by Judean prophets) accepts some of this vision
but (rightly &) pointedly rejects most of its trappings
(the "Adamu" of Genesis 2 is kicked out of the Garden)
humans have a slightly different destiny (in Yahweh's universe)

the relationship to the Divine
is of a much different nature
(product of a much more complicated covenant)

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Judaic & Christian & Islamic monotheism
bespeaks a far more sophisticated vision of human destiny
than (merely) surfing on god's wave
(free-will & personal responsibility count for something , to the prophets)

doing good work (doing god's work) is not enough

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

but , beyond Monotheism

(to me) u sometimes have to (actively) pursue things
which make no sense at all , (an artist's piety)
to pursue

some vague purpose , which reaches
even beyond the puritanical pieties which Monotheism sanctions
beyond good work , yes (but also)
beyond free-will & personal responsibility

i am talking about something far-other than "pretty metaphors" here !
(deep spirituality)

breaching the limits

Lovely post, salishan. I suppose I view life to be God, that life is what drives humanity forward. We simply exist as a part of God's being, independently, yet eternally connected. It is life that motivates change. Our experiences past and present shape our desires, leading us wherever we may go.


We act on our desires, just as we are responsible for what we do. I used the metaphor of a yoke because this is the metaphor Jesus used. I believe we have a choice to either yield to selfish ambition, or yield to our life force (love). The consequences are our own to bear. Whether we pursue love, or whether we pursue our selfish ambitions, we reap what we sow.


Denying the parts about us that stand in opposition to the kingdom (paradise on earth), then yielding to that which gives us life is what I think Jesus was alluding to. I desire that humanity reach paradise. I desire this for my children and for their children. I realize it will not happen in my lifetime, but I am hopeful that by surrendering my life to love that my life might help achieve this lofty goal.


Living in harmony with all existence is what I am referring to. I'm willing to give up that which stands in opposition to peace on earth, just as I desire to yield to God's love in all I do. Again, I believe that God is life and that love is our life force. We are responsible for our world, which is why I think surrendering ourselves to a higher power is the way to achieve harmony with life itself.

 

[Princely]

If you humble yourself to God and do His works then you are yielding to Him. So, yield and work.

"Seek justice seek humility,perhaps you'll be sheltered on the day of the Lords anger".

Don't you see the scripture I posted, I do not do on my own it is the Lord who lives in me performing His works.