This is my Body - This is my Blood

[Gatekeeper]

Bread = Life example, Wine = Spirit of which Jesus lived through. Most believe the bread represents his crucified body, nailed to the cross because of mans wickedness, and the wine to represent the blood he shed because of mans violent acts. Sometimes I can't help but think of Proverbs:


"Enter not into the path of the wicked, and go not in the way of evil men. Avoid it, pass not by it, turn from it, and pass away. For they sleep not, except they have done mischief; and their sleep is taken away, unless they cause some to fall. For they eat the bread of wickedness, and drink the wine of violence. But the path of the just is as the shining light, that shineth more and more unto the perfect day. The way of the wicked is as darkness: they know not at what they stumble."


We honor Jesus by mirroring his life through our own. The bread is meant to remind us of the life he lived, and the wine meant to remind us of the Spirit he lived through. We eat the bread and drink the wine to remember Christ, that by doing so it might help us follow him in spirit and in deed.


Anyone else view it this way?

 

[wil]

Similar....bread - body - material - material understanding.

wine - blood - spirits - spiritual understanding

To give us both the physical and spiritual understandings of his teachings, both in 3d and the infinite, the literal and the metaphysical.

A portion that illustrates this is the last supper....he who takes this sop (of bread) will be the one...

Judas "got" the bread, understood what had to happen in the literal sense, his job to do.

But the rest "got" the bread and the wine, the spiritual understanding. Of course all of them took a while to get it, not till after his death and resurection. If Judas had understood it all he may not have killed himself.

 

[Princely]

I think he was speaking of His words. That His words are His body and blood . After all He and the son of man are the truth ,the word of God. Since the word of God cannot really be bread or blood it has to be His words. That is what saves, the word of God. Here is the verses preceding what was put down.

Proverbs 4:4-13The New American Bible

"Let your heart hold fast my words: keep my commands, that you may live!
"Get wisdom, get understanding! Do not forget or turn aside from the words I utter.
Forsake her not, and she will preserve you; love her, and she will safeguard you;
The beginning of wisdom is: get wisdom; at the cost of all you have, get understanding.
Extol her, and she will exalt you; she will bring you honors if you embrace her;
She will put on your head a graceful diadem; a glorious crown will she bestow on you."
Hear, my son, and receive my words, and the years of your life shall be many.
On the way of wisdom I direct you, I lead you on straightforward paths.
When you walk, your step will not be impeded, and should you run, you will not stumble.
Hold fast to instruction, never let her go; keep her, for she is your life.

 

[Gatekeeper]

I think he was speaking of His words. That His words are His body and blood . After all He and the son of man are the truth ,the word of God. Since the word of God cannot really be bread or blood it has to be His words. That is what saves, the word of God. Here is the verses preceding what was put down.

Proverbs 4:4-13The New American Bible

"Let your heart hold fast my words: keep my commands, that you may live!
"Get wisdom, get understanding! Do not forget or turn aside from the words I utter.
Forsake her not, and she will preserve you; love her, and she will safeguard you;
The beginning of wisdom is: get wisdom; at the cost of all you have, get understanding.
Extol her, and she will exalt you; she will bring you honors if you embrace her;
She will put on your head a graceful diadem; a glorious crown will she bestow on you."
Hear, my son, and receive my words, and the years of your life shall be many.
On the way of wisdom I direct you, I lead you on straightforward paths.
When you walk, your step will not be impeded, and should you run, you will not stumble.
Hold fast to instruction, never let her go; keep her, for she is your life.

John 6:60-63 Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it? When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you? What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before? It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.


Jesus taught us truth, so I have no argument there, but even more than this, he set an example for us to follow. He lived through love and he yielded to our father in all he did, even unto death. I believe this too is our calling. Our carnal selves count (profit) for nothing, as it is the Spirit in us that gives us life, just as it is the Spirit in us that enables us to live as Jesus lived.

 

[Thomas]

Anyone else view it this way?

No

God bless,

Thomas

 

[Lunitik]

What they mean specifically is irrelevant, they are to call you into rememberence of what has happened, they are to always keep you mindful that this man has allowed himself to be killed for you, out of his love for you, he has given his own life - as he called you to caste away your life for him, now it is mutual. How can you not love this man for what he has done? If you remain reflective on this display of affection, it is impossible not to love him, and that love will build and build until you realize one day there is only love, then you are part of the body of Christ.

If you need an answer for it, the bread represents his bones crushed under his own weight, broken due to the nails and the ax breaking his ribs. The wine is what has dripped down the pillar of the cross out of his body, like a waterfall creating a river below. Do not focus on it too much though, what is important is the love he shows, how can you forget him when this is his sacrifice to you? Do you have a friend who would lay their life down for you? This friend hasn't even known you personally and yet he has done it, it is not a "what if", it is so.

Love Jesus, but I have to warn of Christianity, understand this is egoistic men trying to earn a living off this mans sacrifice - be cautious. Jesus is the greatest example of love to ever live, but remember that even he has had to die for his love, that death was absolutely necessary for the resurrection. Without first dying utterly of ego - "why has thou forsaken me" - you can never resurrect as the celestial being: "it is finished" is his final let-go.

 

[wil]

Gatekeeper[/B]]
Anyone else view it this way?

No

God bless,

Thomas

Happy New Year Thomas!

Now you know that isn't true. The question was "Does ANYONE else view it that way?" Not does Thomas view it that way.

We know with an almost certainty that someone must.

And also with an almost certainty Thomas doesn't.

Gotta love the road to Damascus, Paul proved you don't even need to know where you are going to get there.

 

[radarmark]

I view it just as Gatekeeper put it, with a slight change. The wafer is the body and the wine is the blood... literally as well as figuratively (in a mythic-mystic manner).

 

[Thomas]

Now you know that isn't true. The question was "Does ANYONE else view it that way?" Not does Thomas view it that way.

OK. I read it differently.

God bless,

Thomas

 

[Lunitik]

I view it just as Gatekeeper put it, with a slight change. The wafer is the body and the wine is the blood... literally as well as figuratively (in a mythic-mystic manner).

There is nothing mystic in this, the mystery is in the effect of this recognition of love, this letting go to love. Any logical explanation is not a mystery, he simply calls you to remember his sacrifice that you might sacrifice yourself as well - sacrifice your ego for love.

It is unfortunate that we have novels which are called mysteries when really they mean a problem to solve. Religion is not something to be solved, but it has come to pass that this is our connotation for mystery. You must come to this place where you realize there was never a question that needed an answer, but always people seek some answer - it is because they still identify with mind.

Stop this nonsense and simply go into a particular device with utter intensity, it doesn't really matter what it is, pick anything you like, that you trust, it is utterly irrelevant provided it becomes a matter of life or death for you. In that utter urgency, there is a possibility, but continuously acquiring knowledge is just a waste of time.

 

[Thomas]

The point is, when Jesus spoke of the Eucharist, He was quite certain what He meant, and His audience was in no doubt either, and recoiled and rejected Him — "This saying is hard, and who can hear it?" (John 6:61).

He lost a number of disciples and this prompted Him to ask the Twelve 'will you also go away?' (John 6:68).

So I would say there are as many interpretations, but all seek to relativise and make easy that which is hard ...

... I mean, if Jesus meant it as you assume, then there's nothing 'hard' about it at all.

God bless,

Thomas

 

[Lunitik]

You can meditate your whole life, if there is no intensity it was wasteful.
You can pray your entire life, still if there is no intensity, you have just been talking to the sky.
You can try to analyze any mind device, such as I say about dualities, but still it is not going to help unless there is totality, unless you are risking everything on this.

The key is to reach such a peak that you simply disappear, but most people are unwilling to risk anything, for them religion is more like a hobby, a matter of intrigue, it is fine but it is not going to accomplish anything. Even belief will not help, in belief you just attain a state of confidence, but any little thing can shatter it. It is just a false confidence, something to lubricate your life with, it is not going to change anything deep within.

 

[Lunitik]

The point is, when Jesus spoke of the Eucharist, He was quite certain what He meant, and His audience was in no doubt either, and recoiled and rejected Him — "This saying is hard, and who can hear it?" (John 6:61).

He lost a number of disciples and this prompted Him to ask the Twelve 'will you also go away?' (John 6:68).

So I would say there are as many interpretations, but all seek to relativise and make easy that which is hard ...

... I mean, if Jesus meant it as you assume, then there's nothing 'hard' about it at all.

God bless,

Thomas

Yes, it loses all vigor when it is softened, why will he want to lull anybody? He has to shock people into waking up to what he is trying to put across, not relax someone.

Creating comfort for people does not transform them, it does not create in them a willingness to accept the Holy Spirit - the One Life - at all. In fact, creating comfort merely brings them to attach more to the world, this great pleasure being brought through the relaxation. Jesus has come to create Christs, to help all realize they are not separate, that they are part of that One Life - the body of Christ - not for anything else.

This is lost on most Christians, but what is special about Jesus? It is only that the Holy Spirit or One Life has descended on him, and he implores you to accept it as well. Then what is the difference between you and Jesus? It simply has to be experienced, being dipped in water or having it dripped on your head and going to Church doesn't mean you have the Holy Spirit, it doesn't mean you have attain to the Body of Christ, these are mere ritual pointing to something else.

Jesus himself says he baptizes by fire and the Holy Spirit, not by water. This is something non-mistakable, it is exactly what Buddhists call Satori, what Hindu's call Samadhi, if you have not experienced something like this, do not think yourself part of the Body, do not think yourself truly baptized.

 

[Lunitik]

It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing

Understand this, he says nothing done in the physical world, no deed can ever help - and what deed has Jesus done really? All those cured on the periphery are merely to show his power, those raised will have to die again, those healed will suffer again later, it is nothing of importance. This is not Jesus' work, his work is to bring the Holy Spirit to man, to help man realize his true nature, to awaken from his slumber - quicken him. These people could not accept without signs though, so he has offered them, the true sign is when he happens to you.

All ritual is just stupid, it is nothing but something to do, an entertainment. Matthew early on says nothing done in public is honorable before God, and this is all ritual is. The only thing that is meaningful is allowing Him into your heart, then there is an explosion, then you do not need scripture, you realize you are naught but love itself.

This is all any religious man has ever tried to teach, but somehow their teachings have become essentially just self-help... this won't do, if your pastor seems to be trying to help you live better, he is false. He needs to be trying to create more openness in your being, more love, and eventually he will have to bring a type of death to you, but certainly he is not going to empower your current life.

The whole point of religion is to transform your being, not your life. You can say it is to bring you true life, not perpetuate your current march towards death. It is the same, just a little more lubricated, you have to die as you are to be reborn, there is no other way.

 

[Lunitik]

Never be a Christian, it will not do, it just fuels your ego through identification.

Why do you think Jesus has said you must drop your family and indeed your own life? It is because these are your identifications, they must all be overcome. Then you become Christ, but then why will you carry him on further? You have found to where he was pointing, carrying around literature is just going to become a burden.

First you must find him within yourself, though, you must touch that which is God within yourself... now you can speak from this, do you think Jesus has talked from a scripture? He talks on his experience, this is what he means when he says he speaks what has been given by the Father, but he never speaks the tradition... in fact he often goes against the tradition, and you can see how the traditional people have reacted.

 

[radarmark]

Ah, beloved Lunitik, if you could just let go of this "I know and you do not" attitude, you may have greater success. The miracle of the transubstantiation or the transfiguration or the trinity or the ascention are, if nothing else, mystical. For they are not of this world or for this world, but beyond.

As Thomas says, if a miracle is something you can figure out and justify, it may make it easier... but it does not make it truer.

 

[Lunitik]

Religion is NEVER in the tradition, because the tradition is in the past, true religion is in the present. This is the intent of saying God is the God of life and not death - life only exists in the present, the past is dead and the future is not yet born.

 

[Gatekeeper]

What they mean specifically is irrelevant, they are to call you into rememberence of what has happened, they are to always keep you mindful that this man has allowed himself to be killed for you, out of his love for you, he has given his own life - as he called you to caste away your life for him, now it is mutual. How can you not love this man for what he has done? If you remain reflective on this display of affection, it is impossible not to love him, and that love will build and build until you realize one day there is only love, then you are part of the body of Christ.

If you need an answer for it, the bread represents his bones crushed under his own weight, broken due to the nails and the ax breaking his ribs. The wine is what has dripped down the pillar of the cross out of his body, like a waterfall creating a river below. Do not focus on it too much though, what is important is the love he shows, how can you forget him when this is his sacrifice to you? Do you have a friend who would lay their life down for you? This friend hasn't even known you personally and yet he has done it, it is not a "what if", it is so.

Love Jesus, but I have to warn of Christianity, understand this is egoistic men trying to earn a living off this mans sacrifice - be cautious. Jesus is the greatest example of love to ever live, but remember that even he has had to die for his love, that death was absolutely necessary for the resurrection. Without first dying utterly of ego - "why has thou forsaken me" - you can never resurrect as the celestial being: "it is finished" is his final let-go.

Yes, I agree that Jesus was a great example of love, but what if his entire life was an example of what it means to live a life in complete surrender to God? Even when being nailed to the cross he asks forgiveness for his enemies. He loved deeply, but the bread does not refer to his crushed bones, but the shining example of what a man can do by the power of God in them. The wine, likewise, doesn't refer to his spilled blood, but to the Spirit of the living God of which he fully embodied as a man.


Imediately after talking about eating his flesh and blood, he explained what he was referring to: When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you? What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before? It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life. But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.


It was a hard saying, and many fell away at this point in his ministry, but only because they hadn't ears to hear, nor a heart to understand this difficult saying. The flesh is nothing without the indwelling of the Spirit, as it is the spirit that gives life. Jesus' entire ministry was an example for us to follow. He did only that which his father showed him to do by the leading of that which gives us life (love). Love was Jesus' guide, and love is the power of God in us.

 

[Lunitik]

Ah, beloved Lunitik, if you could just let go of this "I know and you do not" attitude, you may have greater success. The miracle of the transubstantiation or the transfiguration or the trinity or the ascention are, if nothing else, mystical. For they are not of this world or for this world, but beyond.

As Thomas says, if a miracle is something you can figure out and justify, it may make it easier... but it does not make it truer.

I know nothing, because there is no "I" here.

I speak from beyond, it is plain you do not know because you do not understand it is encounterable this very moment, there is no reason to wait at all, there is no reason to go to another world because it is herenow if you have eyes to see.

 

[Lunitik]

Yes, I agree that Jesus was a great example of love, but what if his entire life was an example of what it means to live a life in complete surrender to God? Even when being nailed to the cross he asks forgiveness for his enemies. He loved deeply, but the bread does not refer to his crushed bones, but the shining example of what a man can do by the power of God in them. The wine, likewise, doesn't refer to his spilled blood, but to the Spirit of the living God of which he fully embodied as a man.

Jesus surrendered to God when the dove descended on him, it is not Jesus that has done anything, even he says none of the miracles are done by him. Jesus has died and the Holy Spirit has taken over, this is the nature of Christ - the form is irrelevant. Kabballists and Hasidic mystics both I believe call those who attain as "Messiah" or anointed (with God), but this is a secret society for the most part, Christianity is the clinging to a particular one.

I would, however, recommend you look into this attempt to avoid its true significance. You still fear death, thus this seems to be uncomfortable to you as it was uncomfortable to the apostles and disciples. Paul has even come to Christ talking about avoiding the crucifixion, running away and preserving his life. Paul does not see that Jesus has already given his life, now he is just playing out the role.