This is my Body - This is my Blood

Lunitik said:
Jesus surrendered to God when the dove descended on him, it is not Jesus that has done anything, even he says none of the miracles are done by him. Jesus has died and the Holy Spirit has taken over, this is the nature of Christ - the form is irrelevant.

I would, however, recommend you look into this attempt to avoid its true significance. You still fear death, thus this seems to be uncomfortable to you as it was uncomfortable to the apostles and disciples. Paul has even come to Christ talking about avoiding the crucifixion, running away and preserving his life. Paul does not see that Jesus has already given his life, now he is just playing out the role.
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You pretend to know what I fear now? :p You just made a very valid point I have been attempting to establish in other posts ... that it is all God. The flesh is nothing without the indwelling of God's Spirit. Death is not to be feared, as we are eternally alive in God. O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? The problem comes when we think of life in finite terms.
 
Gatekeeper said:
You pretend to know what I fear now? :p You just made a very valid point I have been attempting to establish in other posts ... that it is all God. The flesh is nothing without the indwelling of God's Spirit. Death is not to be feared, as we are eternally alive in God. O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? The problem comes when we think of life in finite terms.
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Perhaps intellectually you do not think you do, but your intellect is also trying to soften the blow of these signs of death, this rememberence of death, so there is something which doesn't align.

God is life, we are an expression of That. You are not alive persay, you only believe you are because there is identification with the expression, you do not realize you are actually life itself. True religion will enable you to encounter this directly, it will grow your perception of this truth, so that is what must be done, do not take my word for it until it is your own experience.
 
Again, "true religion" merely creates the dicotomy you do not see. By using that phrase you (and there is one, even if you deny it) create the notion of "false religion" (which is simply an oximoron from my point-of-view).

That which is beyond (and yes, I do doubt this claim of yours) would not waste words of defense (which, IMHO, is all you tend to do).

Flesh and spirit are one. But we cannnot (IMHO) stay stuck in either flesh (sarx) or mind (nous), but struggle to unify in wholeness (soma) to ultimately cast aside it too for nothing at all (see Future Hi: Nikos Kazantzakis - The Saviors of God - Spiritual Exercises the last line).
 
"I and my father are one"

This is the only important miracle in the Bible.

When you know the truth of it, religion is finished.
 
radarmark said:
Again, "true religion" merely creates the dicotomy you do not see. By using that phrase you (and there is one, even if you deny it) create the notion of "false religion" (which is simply an oximoron from my point-of-view).

That which is beyond (and yes, I do doubt this claim of yours) would not waste words of defense (which, IMHO, is all you tend to do).

Flesh and spirit are one. But we cannnot (IMHO) stay stuck in either flesh (sarx) or mind (nous), but struggle to unify in wholeness (soma) to ultimately cast aside it too for nothing at all (see Future Hi: Nikos Kazantzakis - The Saviors of God - Spiritual Exercises the last line).
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There certainly is false religion, everywhere.

Whatsoever takes you further from your being, whatsoever reinforces distinction is false religion, whatsoever increases knowledge without direct encounter is false. You do not like it, but it is so. No religious founder has attempted to be your life couch, no religious founder has attempted to create scholars, they are trying to transform your being, remind you what you actually are. All else is absolutely utterly unequivocally false. Your very reaction to this statement proves you do not know, you want to believe you are accomplishing something, learning something by reading so much nonsense. Unless something has happened in your being, you have simply wasted your time. That is just it though, you are filled with opinions because you know nothing, you have encountered nothing - you are trying to impress by knowledge, it is the work of the ego. You can go into my words and know, or you can continue disputing them and maybe die never having tasted true life.

Your doubt about the possibility of my claim proves you have not yet tasted of true life.
 
You can certainly also go into the poem you link to and know... but how else to express than saying oneness?

There is a problem because now the notion of 2,3,4,5 comes in, but when a nothing and another nothing combine, can there be two nothings? There is just nothingness. Everything arises out of nothingness and goes back to nothingness, and yet it actually was nothingness all along. Just the illusion of somethingness has happened.

You link to it, but you deny what it points to is a possibility... strange.
 
Notions of the place of arrival will not help, either, though... it is not nothingness, but there is no somethingness either, so even this is not expressive. There is emptiness, but it is vastly full, how to express it? It is better to take someone to it than try to portray it, it is the ultimate paradox because language itself has created the distance from it.
 
Again, the ego and exclusivity that drips from the words you write are just amazing!
There is but one religion, the true religion (small "r" usually used post-Gueron to denote the core esoteric-mythical-mystical teaching). There are plenty of false Religions (like all of them) if one takes capital "R" to denote the trappings, the exoteric.

I did not know you were unfamiliar with that distinction. I (among others) have certainly made it often enough. As for your commentary on the quote:

Can you read? "Flesh and spirit are one. But we cannnot (IMHO) stay stuck in either flesh (sarx) or mind (nous), but struggle to unify in wholeness (soma) to ultimately cast aside it too for nothing at all." is what I posted. Therfore whatever you meant by "you link to it, but you deny what it points to is a possibility... strange" is some kind of mental embolism inside your own head.
 
radarmark said:
Again, the ego and exclusivity that drips from the words you write are just amazing!
There is but one religion, the true religion (small "r" usually used post-Gueron to denote the core esoteric-mythical-mystical teaching). There are plenty of false Religions (like all of them) if one takes capital "R" to denote the trappings, the exoteric.

I did not know you were unfamiliar with that distinction. I (among others) have certainly made it often enough. As for your commentary on the quote:

Can you read? "Flesh and spirit are one. But we cannnot (IMHO) stay stuck in either flesh (sarx) or mind (nous), but struggle to unify in wholeness (soma) to ultimately cast aside it too for nothing at all." is what I posted. Therfore whatever you meant by "you link to it, but you deny what it points to is a possibility... strange" is some kind of mental embolism inside your own head.
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You mistake authority for ego, unless you wish to say Jesus had an ego too?

I am not sure why you distinguish religion and Religion? Religion means to bind, thus whatsoever doesn't bind isn't religion. Religion is an encounter with the utter unity of things, and indeed a residing in that unity eventually. Anything that creates separation, either of the community or within the community, in behavior and morality or even in things is simply erroneous.

Yes, I read the statement, I have addressed it pointing out that if it is opinion it is wrong, without exception. Even if you state perfect truth, if it is not your experience, you have erred.

Have you experienced that "even the one does not exist"? All I speak of is how to experience this statement, yet you deny that I have tasted of it. I am whole, I simply invite you to experience wholeness too. First you must drop all delusion, everything which mind clings to, and upon dropping it, you find mind itself was not real - just a function of those thoughts. There is no division at all, there is only limitation of your being, and mind has created that limitation, it is the obstacle.

When mind itself is dropped, there is an explosion, now what is there? Your poem points at it, but have you tasted it? Words do not help, understanding through logic doesn't help, you have to encounter what he means... have you?

Your words present someone that has not.
 
I am extremely against false religions and people that get caught up in their idiocies, you continuously support them though. I speak rawly about the way of actual religion and you deny it is so, pulling back out and saying "hey, what about this useless nonsense", it is frustrating. You do not understand that they simply point at something which you can encounter this second if you are willing. You are filling your head and others with dumb stories, it is for me something almost cruel because in stating them you give them an exercise for their mind, you justify their lack of intensity.

Everything arises of its own accord when you encounter truth yourself, why fill yourself with irrelevancy and postpone? It is a trick of the mind, I am trying to avoid that, I am trying to cause people to experience directly, not delay them even longer. You think you are doing something good in supporting nonsense, providing more reading, you are doing nothing but harm. Mind is a tricky thing, you do not seem to understand its stupidity. The meaning of Mahavira, for instance, is "the great victor", many go on calling these people Lord or Master, what has the victory been over? What is mastered? It is the mind, and yet you feed it...

The mind is a tool, it has many good utilities, but the fundamental problem is that people are identified with it. Dropping this, all other delusion too is dropped, because without mind how can there be delusion?
 
You will notice I rarely talk about theology or how things function unless it is to make the point that it is impossibly complicated from the normal plane - just endless cycles in all directions infinitely. All I am interested in is the encounter with it, because then you will know yourself, then I don't have to explain it.

Then how to drop mind when you are identified with it? You have to use the mind, hence the devices I continue offering... we go on saying the point to life is to learn, this is the base of the identification. Everything you are "learning" is already known because you are the whole, the point of life is to celebrate, but when you are attached to certain conclusions about life, celebrating becomes impossible and this is why people suffer, why depression is rampant. Even if someone is content now due to chasing a given desire, it will certainly end in suffering when they realize they are still empty. Now they chase again, maybe the next thing will be more fulfilling, just dream higher, eventually you will be fulfilled.

When limited to mind you cannot ever be fulfilled, when you drop mind, you realize you always were... you just remained distracted from it.
 
Again, try to read what I have said. "Religion" is the trappings...the doctrine, the cloaks, the books, the thou-shalts. All exoterica (things outside, not hidden). "religion" is the one faith of mystics-mythics, the founders or major players in the traditions. Religions may be (in my opinion are always) false (in some sense). religion cannot be false... if can be (and, I would claim is) of infinate variety.

This is not irrlevancy nor postponement. No, this is trying to reach out and be one with all. Your approach is valid for you, mine for me, Laozi's for Laozi. Is that really so hard to understand? Try immersing yourself in all that is and call out any of the ten thousand names of the G!d/d!ss... the Kosmos will reply.
 
Again, Lunitik, this is also where we differ. Buddah and Hui-Neng never say loose the mind. They say the BUddah is there in your mind and what you must drop is the false notion of self. For you self is mind. Fine, I will stick to what the Tathagatha said. He seems a little more trustworthy.

Hint: drop your fourth and fifth aggregates. You are not the monkey mind and you are not self-consciousness. Consciousness just is, it does not need your words "I" and "G!d". You only need those and they only become an issue when you debate within yourself--which means there is a self. The experience is of beyondness, a nothingness consuming the I. Not of this particular path you preach so ineffectively.
 
Gatekeeper said:
John 6:60-63 Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it? When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you? What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before? It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.


Jesus taught us truth, so I have no argument there, but even more than this, he set an example for us to follow. He lived through love and he yielded to our father in all he did, even unto death. I believe this too is our calling. Our carnal selves count (profit) for nothing, as it is the Spirit in us that gives us life, just as it is the Spirit in us that enables us to live as Jesus lived.
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Yes; "The words I spoke to you are spirit and life"

I am the bread of life.
this is the bread that comes down from heaven so that one may eat it and never die.
I am the living bread that came down from heaven; whoever eats this bread will live forever; and the bread that I will give is my flesh for the life of the world.
Truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you.
Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood possesses eternal life, and I will raise him on the last day.
For my flesh is true food, and my blood is honest drink. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me and I in him.
Just as the Lord who sent me has life so too do I have life because of the Lord, so also the one who feeds on me will have life because of me.
Whoever eats this bread will live forever.
 
Gatekeeper said:
We honor Jesus by mirroring his life through our own. The bread is meant to remind us of the life he lived, and the wine meant to remind us of the Spirit he lived through. We eat the bread and drink the wine to remember Christ, that by doing so it might help us follow him in spirit and in deed.
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I would contend that view because it reduces the whole thing to a merely moral level, with no actual substance or essence, in fact no content at all in any meaningful sense? It all becomes just ... words ... you seem to be affirming your own reality as it is, rather than questioning the possibility of any other?

It reduces everything to the letter. The spirit is nothing more than sentiment, and God is little more than a cypher.

I suggest the implication of the scribe, and the evidence of the saints and mystics point way beyond this. I suggest there is a real beyond the surface.

God bless,

Thomas
 
Thomas said:
I would contend that view because it reduces the whole thing to a merely moral level, with no actual substance or essence, in fact no content at all in any meaningful sense? It all becomes just ... words ... you seem to be affirming your own reality as it is, rather than questioning the possibility of any other?

It reduces everything to the letter. The spirit is nothing more than sentiment, and God is little more than a cypher.

I suggest the implication of the scribe, and the evidence of the saints and mystics point way beyond this. I suggest there is a real beyond the surface.

God bless,

Thomas
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Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.


And: 1 John 4

We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error. Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God. He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.


Now consider Galatians 5:

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

<->

For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another. For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another. This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.


** When we are born of the Spirit we are born of God. God is love, thus God's Spirit is love also. There is no law apart from love. Likewise, there is no sin in love. Those who love, live in the light of God and have no darkness in them. The righteous cannot be unrighteous, nor are those who live in light able to live in darkness.


** In short, the Spirit gives us life. Joh 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.


** No where does Jesus say that he payed for our sins on the cross. On the other hand, Jesus did show us what is required from us to overcome.



  1. Yield to God


  2. God fills us with his Spirit (love)


  3. God has his perfect work in us


  4. Against such there is no law



** The entire point is that we can become like Jesus by being born of God, and then living through his Spirit. Rom 12:1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.
 
Gatekeeper said:
Bread = Life example, Wine = Spirit of which Jesus lived through. Most believe the bread represents his crucified body, nailed to the cross because of mans wickedness, and the wine to represent the blood he shed because of mans violent acts. Sometimes I can't help but think of Proverbs:


"Enter not into the path of the wicked, and go not in the way of evil men. Avoid it, pass not by it, turn from it, and pass away. For they sleep not, except they have done mischief; and their sleep is taken away, unless they cause some to fall. For they eat the bread of wickedness, and drink the wine of violence. But the path of the just is as the shining light, that shineth more and more unto the perfect day. The way of the wicked is as darkness: they know not at what they stumble."


We honor Jesus by mirroring his life through our own. The bread is meant to remind us of the life he lived, and the wine meant to remind us of the Spirit he lived through. We eat the bread and drink the wine to remember Christ, that by doing so it might help us follow him in spirit and in deed.


Anyone else view it this way?
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Maybe that is what it means, but the symbolism is rooted in Zarathushtrian symbolism. The wine or blood of Christ is equivalent to the juice or the Hom in Z. The Hom juice is also mixed in with the milk of cow and tied to the Izhaya Gerezda "Sacrifice of the milky CREAM." The bread is part of the Dron ritual in Z. The Hasheeshen practiced something similar. They ate Hashish, the byproduct of Hemp (prob. rel. Hom). They called the Hashish "the Flesh of Khadir." It all had to do with fighting off death and attaining immortality. Joseph Campbell believed that Jesus and the Tree of "Immortal Life" were one and the same.

Lastly it might be worth noting that in The Origins of English Words Joseph Shipley attributes the word Eucharist as being rooted in PIE. * gher I and II and the name Zarathushtra to PIE. * gher IV cf. gerontology
 
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