"2nd Coming" & "Resurrection of the dead" through reincarnation?

[Thomas]

Now we're back to this idea that all people can suddenly grasp every point the Christ had to make ... Purely absurd ...

If you understood Christianity, you'd realise one doesn't need to:
"And the peace of God, which transcends all understanding, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus"
Phillipians 4:7

I know the idea of 'simple faith' offend those who like their esoterica as complex as can be ... but really:
"But as many as received him, he gave them power to be made the sons of God, to them that believe in his name."
John 1:12

Think about it. Islam demands even less, but still manages to produce a Rumi, an Ibn'Arabi, and I am sure there are others.

You are trying to lift this (subject and discussion) into some artificial realm - of your own creation - wherein Thomas makes the rules.

No ... I'm saying neither Christ nor Christianity ever taught reincarnation — in response to the topic posed — by another theosophist, I see — So let's stick to the topic.

One of the originators of this false doctrine within modern Theosophy was a book entitled "Reincarnation in Christianity" by Geddes MacGregor, who asserted Origen believed in reincarnation. A search on Google will supply ample evidence of Theosophists still repeating the claim, with vague references to the Origen's extant writings. References so vague they cannot be located, and in fact don't exist. It's a lie.

When pressed, MacGreggor admitted he had no evidence for the claim whatsoever, but assured everyone that Origen must have believed in reincarnation, presumably because he (MacGregor) does, and therefore Origen must have, and the texts must have been destroyed ...

(The claim is unwittingly repeated by Shirley MacLaine in her book "Out On a Limb")

In reality, there is no evidence that Origen believed in reincarnation. On the contrary there is evidence that he did not, and argued against the idea of metempsychosis. He wrote about the Greeks' transmigration of the soul, with which he did not agree (On Matthew, Ch1). He repeatedly states that the concept is not a part of Doctrine nor Scripture:
"In this place [when Jesus said Elijah was come and referred to John the Baptist] it does not appear to me that by Elijah the soul is spoken of, lest I fall into the doctrine of transmigration, which is foreign to the Church of God, and not handed down by the apostles, nor anywhere set forth in the scriptures" (Commentary on the Gospel of Matthew, Book 13, Chapter 1).

Might I add, that whilst HPB claimed "There is no doctrine higher than truth" (Frontispiece to 'The Secret Doctrine', and a dubious assertion, because the doctrine of being is prior to and therefore higher than truth), the Theosophical Society seems quite happy to let this untruth promulgate under its own name.

God bless

Thomas

 

[Thomas]

Hi Andrew —

A man speaks of metaphysics, yet will not discuss the cycles of becoming.

You see? You can't even get that right.

I did discuss the cycles of becoming, and corrected your error — God is the source of all being, but is not subject to becoming, as you suppose.

Basic metaphysics.

Will you please stop putting your errors into the mouths of others.

God bless,

Thomas

 

[taijasi]

As I said, the discussion between the two of us is finished. The thread can proceed and progress ...

 

[Thomas]

Yes ... let's see the evidence to demonstrate that reincarnation is part of the Christian Tradition.

God bless,

Thomas

 

[taijasi]

Yes ... let's see the evidence to demonstrate that reincarnation is part of the Christian Tradition.

God bless,

Thomas

Thomas, it isn't a part of the Christianity that you practice. I think that's what you'd like people to know.

There are practicing Christians here at Interfaith who believe in reincarnation, and there are plenty elsewhere.

May I refer you to Living Buddha, Living Christ by the Zen Buddhist Master Thich Nhat Hanh if you're having trouble rectifying the problems it apparently creates for you?

Funny, the issues doesn't seem to have *EVER* disturbed him very much ...

... those darn Zen Masters!

 

[Bhaktajan II]

Originally Posted by Thomas
Yes ... let's see the evidence to demonstrate that reincarnation is part of the Christian Tradition.

God bless,

Thomas

Yes. God Bless Thomas.

a] Christ died. [Yes]
b] Christ lives. [Yes]
c] Christ will come again [Yes]

HEADLINES: That called Re-incarnation; by any other name ---it's Re-incarnation. The Guru (the Acharya) teaches by example.

happy endings,
Bhaktajan

<&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&>
"We are not the body we are spirit souls"
--everyone in history up until the present is beholding to Jesus for this revelation.

Jesus's pastime was to publically cleans the sins that resulted in generations of humanity NOT KNOWING that the soul is made of spirit and the body is made of Earth (matter).

Why assume that the knowledge of the souls' after life was common concensus?

In ancient times, do we assume that the notion of One God Monism ---came long long after the notion that the Soul lives on after death???????????????????? And this was the common man's notion too?

 

[Thomas]

Hi Andrew —

Thomas, it isn't a part of the Christianity that you practice. I think that's what you'd like people to know.

Andrew, It's no part of Christianity, full stop. If you think it is, let's see the evidence.

There are practicing Christians here at Interfaith who believe in reincarnation, and there are plenty elsewhere.

Then their faith with regard to Christianity is defective. Unlike contemporary Theosophy, in which apparently anyone can believe in anything they like (which makes a nonsense of HPB's dictum about the doctrine of truth, by the way), Christianity stands on the moral and metaphysical principle of promoting the truth of Revelation as it was entrusted to the Church.

May I refer you to ...

Is it evidence? No ... so quit the smokescreen, let's see the evidence.

I could refer you to the address of the Dalai Lama to the Dominican community at Oxford, but that's beside the point.

Funny ...

sigh ... Here we go — when you've got nothing, mask that fact by ridiculing your opponent.

Remember, a Theosophist started this thread, and you are defending it ... but as yet neither of you has come up with a single shred of evidence to support your thesis.

So stop your blether, as the saying goes, either put up, or ...

God bless,

Thomas

 

[Thomas]

a] Christ died.[Yes]
b] Christ lives.[Yes]
c] Christ will come again[Yes]

HEADLINES: That called Re-incarnation; by any other name ---it's Re-incarnation. The Guru (the Acharya) teaches by example.

WRONG: It is called Resurrection ... reincarnation is something else entirely.

"We are not the body we are spirit souls"
--everyone in history up until the present is beholding to Jesus for this revelation.

No ... that was known long before Jesus. It was known to the scribes of Genesis, and it was known in other traditions, Greek, Egyptian long before Christ.

Indeed, in the Judaic Tradition there is not the body/soul dichotomy you present. Man is a corporate entity of body, soul and spirit, not a soul living in an alien body.

Jesus's pastime was to publicly cleans the sins that resulted in generations of humanity NOT KNOWING that the soul is made of spirit and the body is made of Earth.[/FONT]
Good grief ... wherever did you get that from?

If Jesus had a hobby, the sacred Scribes deemed it unnecessary to their testimony, nor is anything recorded in Scripture of so little account as you assume.

The deeds and the words of Christ are one cohesive and seamless whole. The deeds testify to the preaching that the Kingdom is at hand, they also explicitly signify the divinity of Christ.

Why assume that the knowledge of the souls' after life was common concensus?

Because it's there in the literature of the Greeks, the Egyptians, the Jews, and others. because it's there in the funeral rites of civilisations going back into pre-history.

In ancient times, do we assume that the notion of One God Monism ---came long long after the notion that the Soul lives on after death???????????????????? And this was the common man's notion too?

Well you'd have to clarify what culture you're talking about. I don't think those I've mentioned — Greek, Egyptian, Jewish, were monists, the Jews are monotheist, but not monist ...

God bless,

Thomas

 

[donnann]

Peace everyone. This is my first thread under the Christianity Subforum and I thought I'd bring up something different and thought-provoking! A HUGE part - possibly number 1 - of Christian dogma is, "The Christ will return to judge everyone according to their actions and usher in a 1,000-year-period of world peace. This coincides with the 'resurrection of the dead'" (paraphrased) - The Revelation. How is this to take place exactly? Is there a scientific explanation for this phenomenon? Yes, reincarnation.

Let's not confuse 'heaven' with the 'heavens', nor confuse 'eternity' and 'perpetuity'. Before I elaborate any further, let's have some replies.

Do you mean incarnation? JESUS body is in perfect immortal condition, no need for reincarnation and he incarnated to attain that with the human body. Prior to that he had a heavenly prehuman body. Any heavenly beings sent from the universe of heavenly beings which by the way is much much bigger than this one, is incarnated into the human body via the egg then sealed into it. Incarnated means the heavenly being descends into the egg at the moment of conception and is sealed. This universe is but a grain of sand in a vast vast place in comparison with the heavenly universe.

 

[donnann]

Do you mean incarnation? JESUS body is in perfect immortal condition, no need for reincarnation and he incarnated to attain that with the human body. Prior to that he had a heavenly prehuman body. Any heavenly beings sent from the universe of heavenly beings which by the way is much much bigger than this one, is incarnated into the human body via the egg then sealed into it. Incarnated means the heavenly being descends into the egg at the moment of conception and is sealed. This universe is but a grain of sand in a vast vast place in comparison with the heavenly universe.

See a world in a grain of sand, heaven in a wildflower, hold infinity in the palm of your hand , eternity in an hour.

 

[Princely]

Who are the dead?

Anyone who does not eat the flesh of the son of man and drink his blood has no life in them. Anyone who eats my flesh and drinks my blood possesses eternal life and I shall raise him up on the last day.For my flesh is true food and my blood is honest drink.Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me and I in him.


I am the resurrection and the life.

The reason I was born and came into the world is to testify to the truth. The Lords word is truth. I was sent to spread the good news of the kingdom of God and do what is right.

The Lord says this;

Seek the Lord so you will live. Seek justice, seek humility, perhaps you will be sheltered on the day of the Lords anger.

Do what is right and just. I the Lord speak the truth, I say what is right.

 

[donnann]

Who are the dead?

Anyone who does not eat the flesh of the son of man and drink his blood has no life in them. Anyone who eats my flesh and drinks my blood possesses eternal life and I shall raise him up on the last day.For my flesh is true food and my blood is honest drink.Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me and I in him.


I am the resurrection and the life.

The reason I was born and came into the world is to testify to the truth. The Lords word is truth. I was sent to spread the good news of the kingdom of God and do what is right.

The Lord says this;

Seek the Lord so you will live. Seek justice, seek humility, perhaps you will be sheltered on the day of the Lords anger.

Do what is right and just. I the Lord speak the truth, I say what is right.

End time prophecy is about marriage. Its about union with ones own opposite which is highest. We all know jesus didnt get married back then.

 

[Princely]

End time prophecy is about marriage. Its about union with ones own opposite which is highest. We all know jesus didnt get married back then.

Whoever speaks on his own seeks his own glory but whoever seeks the glory of the One who sent him is truthful and there is no dishonesty in his heart.

It is written;. I will espouse you to me forever: I will espouse you in right and in justice, in love and in mercy; I will espouse you in fidelity, and you shall know the Lord.(Hosea)

 

[Thomas]

End time prophecy is about marriage. Its about union with ones own opposite which is highest. We all know jesus didnt get married back then.

"And Jesus said to them: The children of this world marry, and are given in marriage: But they that shall be accounted worthy of that world, and of the resurrection from the dead, shall neither be married, nor take wives. Neither can they die any more: for they are equal to the angels, and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection."
Luke 20:34-36

I don't know why you fix on the idea of physical marriage, when Jesus in Scripture flatly refutes it.

You seem to assume that heaven is a better or perfect version of earth ... it's not. And you seem to assume angels are better or perfect versions of human beings ... they're not.

Angels do not have bodies, they do not have a corporeal presence, and they do not have corporeal organs.

They are creatures of spirit, and when you read 'light' it does not mean luminescence, like sun or star-light, but rather the light of the mind (as in Genesis 1:3 'Let there be light').

The word 'angel' means messenger, it describes a function, not a form. In the Christian Tradition there is something of a mish-mash between the Hebraic mythopoeic and the Hellenic logoic ... the Latins tend to the former, the Orthodox tend to the latter.

Then in the West, contemporary ideas about angels owe much to the sentimental fictions of the Romance Movement (as does the notion of faeries, who are very nasty little things indeed).

St Thomas Aquinas discusses angels at great length (hence his title Doctor Angelicus) although not all agree with his speculations, least of all that each angel is an individual species.

God bless,

Thomas

 

[donnann]

"And Jesus said to them: The children of this world marry, and are given in marriage: But they that shall be accounted worthy of that world, and of the resurrection from the dead, shall neither be married, nor take wives. Neither can they die any more: for they are equal to the angels, and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection."
Luke 20:34-36

I don't know why you fix on the idea of physical marriage, when Jesus in Scripture flatly refutes it.

You seem to assume that heaven is a better or perfect version of earth ... it's not. And you seem to assume angels are better or perfect versions of human beings ... they're not.

Angels do not have bodies, they do not have a corporeal presence, and they do not have corporeal organs.

They are creatures of spirit, and when you read 'light' it does not mean luminescence, like sun or star-light, but rather the light of the mind (as in Genesis 1:3 'Let there be light').

The word 'angel' means messenger, it describes a function, not a form. In the Christian Tradition there is something of a mish-mash between the Hebraic mythopoeic and the Hellenic logoic ... the Latins tend to the former, the Orthodox tend to the latter.

Then in the West, contemporary ideas about angels owe much to the sentimental fictions of the Romance Movement (as does the notion of faeries, who are very nasty little things indeed).

St Thomas Aquinas discusses angels at great length (hence his title Doctor Angelicus) although not all agree with his speculations, least of all that each angel is an individual species.

God bless,

Thomas

Your forgetting about the marriage of the lamb.....the bride hath made herself ready....also song of solomon. That phrase is taken out of context all the time. If you look at advanced theology it does talk about each archangel having an archeia and even god having a goddess. Do you know if you look at the history of the goddess that the hebrews worshipped her along side of god but that the priesthood became male dominated. They banned women from entrance to the temple and killed anyone who would acknowledge gods female counterpart. The female counterpart then had to be worshipped along side of the male in secret. Did you know that the two staffs given to moses are called ashera poles , goddess poles? Look all this up. In todays world specifically in this country where women are no longer allowed to be abused and treated as second class citizens you would think that pattern of denial would stop. Unfortunately some still worship an all male creator which by the way is only half of the whole deity. End time prophecy is proven by a scroll they found wrapped around the mummy of a woman called the liber linteus which is about the female counterpart and mary magdalene doctrines really are about this prophecy and not about some woman jesus ficticiously married.

 

[donnann]

"And Jesus said to them: The children of this world marry, and are given in marriage: But they that shall be accounted worthy of that world, and of the resurrection from the dead, shall neither be married, nor take wives. Neither can they die any more: for they are equal to the angels, and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection."
Luke 20:34-36

I don't know why you fix on the idea of physical marriage, when Jesus in Scripture flatly refutes it.

You seem to assume that heaven is a better or perfect version of earth ... it's not. And you seem to assume angels are better or perfect versions of human beings ... they're not.

Angels do not have bodies, they do not have a corporeal presence, and they do not have corporeal organs.

They are creatures of spirit, and when you read 'light' it does not mean luminescence, like sun or star-light, but rather the light of the mind (as in Genesis 1:3 'Let there be light').

The word 'angel' means messenger, it describes a function, not a form. In the Christian Tradition there is something of a mish-mash between the Hebraic mythopoeic and the Hellenic logoic ... the Latins tend to the former, the Orthodox tend to the latter.

Then in the West, contemporary ideas about angels owe much to the sentimental fictions of the Romance Movement (as does the notion of faeries, who are very nasty little things indeed).

St Thomas Aquinas discusses angels at great length (hence his title Doctor Angelicus) although not all agree with his speculations, least of all that each angel is an individual species.

God bless,

Thomas

Your confusing fallen angels with unfallen angels. Fallen angels are in the same condtion as human beings are and the condtions for salvation are the same. This end time prophecy of the woman not only involves human beings but also fallen angels. The body of the woman, the liber linteus shows is angelic but also human. Understand?

 

[donnann]

"And Jesus said to them: The children of this world marry, and are given in marriage: But they that shall be accounted worthy of that world, and of the resurrection from the dead, shall neither be married, nor take wives. Neither can they die any more: for they are equal to the angels, and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection."
Luke 20:34-36

I don't know why you fix on the idea of physical marriage, when Jesus in Scripture flatly refutes it.

You seem to assume that heaven is a better or perfect version of earth ... it's not. And you seem to assume angels are better or perfect versions of human beings ... they're not.

Angels do not have bodies, they do not have a corporeal presence, and they do not have corporeal organs.

They are creatures of spirit, and when you read 'light' it does not mean luminescence, like sun or star-light, but rather the light of the mind (as in Genesis 1:3 'Let there be light').

The word 'angel' means messenger, it describes a function, not a form. In the Christian Tradition there is something of a mish-mash between the Hebraic mythopoeic and the Hellenic logoic ... the Latins tend to the former, the Orthodox tend to the latter.

Then in the West, contemporary ideas about angels owe much to the sentimental fictions of the Romance Movement (as does the notion of faeries, who are very nasty little things indeed).

St Thomas Aquinas discusses angels at great length (hence his title Doctor Angelicus) although not all agree with his speculations, least of all that each angel is an individual species.

God bless,

Thomas

That would mean the body of the woman would have had to have been conceived by sex with the fallen angel and a human woman in order for it to be both but incarnated from the heavenly universe making it a nephalim. Sorry for the multiple posts. This has to do with prophecy.

 

[donnann]

That would mean the body of the woman would have had to have been conceived by sex with the fallen angel and a human woman in order for it to be both but incarnated from the heavenly universe making it a nephalim. Sorry for the multiple posts. This has to do with prophecy.

This womans father is not the devil though so please dont confuse it.

 

[Thomas]

Your forgetting about the marriage of the lamb...

No I'm not. Christ is the lamb ... the Church is His bride. (Cf Ephesians 5). So the whole thing speaks of the Mystical Body of Christ, which in Catholic and Orthodox Doctrine is founded on the idea of Christ the head, the Church the members of the one body; the image of nuptial union is used to describe its immanent intimacy, but don't get carried away by the analogy.

The Marriage of the Lamb, the Wise and Unwise Virgins and the Feast of the Eucharist form a united whole.

If you look at advanced theology ...

who's 'advanced theology' precisely?

End time prophecy is proven by a scroll they found wrapped around the mummy of a woman called the liber linteus which is about the female counterpart ...

Someone's been telling you fibs. The liber linteus is non-Christian for a start, so completely irrelevant to the discussion.

As far as I can see, it's not understood, being written in a lost Etruscan language, it's suggested it's something of a liturgical calendar, and there's no reference to the feminine ... unless you can provide them?

and mary magdalene doctrines really are about this prophecy and not about some woman jesus ficticiously married.

Well, where you get that notion from, I don't know ... the same fibber as the rest, I suppose.

There is no evidence whatsoever to support the idea that Jesus married Mary Magdalene, the supposed 'kiss on the lips' that so many mention is in fact a fiction to fill a gap in the text.

You need to check your sources, and cross-check them with other sources.

God bless,

Thomas

 

[Thomas]

Your confusing fallen angels with unfallen angels.

No I'm not.

Fallen angels are in the same condition as human beings are and the conditions for salvation are the same.

No they're not.

This end time prophecy of the woman not only involves human beings but also fallen angels. The body of the woman, the liber linteus shows is angelic but also human. Understand?

Show me where you read this from the liber linteus.

You refer to a text that is pre-Christian, I am discussing aspects of Christian Revelation of which the liber linteus is unaware.

God bless,

Thomas