Something Bad Jesus Did

[Saltmeister]

That's where the Pauline policy of Replacement Theology comes into focus. IMHO, no one can be grafted into the root of Israel without conversion to Judaism.

I thought I might comment on this. The origins of Replacement Theology are "Pauline," but I don't believe Paul was the one who created or invented Replacement Theology. What Paul proposed was Olive Tree Theology. It was the Later Christians who created Replacement Theology, which I think is really a misinterpretation of Paul's Olive Tree Theology.

When Paul proposed this theology, the Jewish Temple in Jerusalem was still standing. The Sanhedrin was still functioning and Jerusalem was the centre of both Judaism and the newly-emerging "Christianity." The Christianity that existed there was different once again to what we have now, considering that the Jerusalem Church was still around.

The absence of the Jerusalem Church was what led to Replacement Theology. The Jerusalem Church represented the "Christianity" that we lost. Replacement Theology suggests that the Mosaic Covenant was somehow transferred to Gentile Christians, that "Jewishness" wasn't strictly about what Judaism represents today. The Jerusalem Church was never around to approve of such an idea, due to the destruction of Jerusalem.

What Paul says in Romans 10:12 and Galatians 3:28 about "no difference between Jew and Gentile" is misleading. He is right that Jews and Gentiles are fundamentally equal, but that doesn't mean that Gentiles can suddenly start defining "Jewishness." Jews grew up with the Torah. Gentiles grew up with something else. The Torah makes you Jewish. The Gospel makes you Christian.

The Jerusalem Church still saw themselves as different to Gentile Christians. This is what led to the Apostolic Decree (similar to the Seven Noahide Laws). Even Paul saw Jews and Gentiles as different. In Romans 11:20 he says to the Gentiles, "do not be arrogant, but be afraid" because in verse 18 he says "you do not support the root, but the root supports you." In Romans 11:24 he calls Judaism the "cultivated olive tree." The branches that broke off (Romans 11:17-24) are not the Pharisees, but the Nazarenes who broke away from mainstream Judaism. The cultivated olive tree always has to have roots and because the Nazarenes/Jerusalem Church were destroyed, there was nobody left to be the roots but the Pharisees. The "roots" are not the Gospel as Replacement Theology assumes, but rather the Torah and the rabbinical tradition that the Pharisees established shortly after.

Because Christians are still part of the wild olive tree, it also means we have yet to be grafted into the cultivated olive tree. To be grafted into the cultivated olive tree we may indeed need to accept and conform to rabbinical tradition (the roots). It is actually quite scary, to think that we need to look to another tradition to make meaning of our own .......... the even bigger problem is getting all 2.2 billion Christians to take part in this process of being grafted onto the other tree.

 

[luecy7]

It means that if Jesus AT TIMES did some not so nice things, no one can claim that he was perfect. He broke the Golden Rule of not doing unto others what we would not like they did unto us. Would he have liked to be called a dog? I doubt it.

Yet you believe you are not doing something Bad here, in the exact same manner? Do you believe your accusation has any merit, as you are breaking your own stated belief? Some children tell their parents, "You are bad for calling me bad". Have you thought that one through?

Why do you point to this one instead of, "Serpents! Brood of Vipers!"? In my opinion, that would be a bit stronger for your point. Unless of course you are also selfishly including the demand that others give to you whatever you demand, lest they be breaking that golden rule. Was it just the verbage, or do you mean to imply that Jesus was also doing Bad for not giving people whatever they wanted?

 

[Princely]

The golden rule is only used correctly if you speak the word of God to others that is how to love others as you would have them love you. That is why He said "this is the Law and the prophets" because that is what the prophets did.They tell the law ,the word of the Lord to others.That is why Jesus said to continue in His word, His teaching.That is why He said to do what He has done, to go into the world as He was sent with the same mission and message.


Matt 7:12 "In everything do to others as you would have them do to you; for this is the law and the prophets. "Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the road is easy that leads to destruction, and there are many who take it. For the gate is narrow and the road is hard that leads to life, and there are few who find it".

"You've been told what is good and what the Lord requires of you, only to do what is right, love goodness, and walk humbly with the Lord your God."

"All those who do right shall rise to live, those who do evil will rise to be damned".

 

[luecy7]

The golden rule is only used correctly if you speak the word of God...

So you think the golden rule only applies correctly to... lip service? Well I guess that does describe many of the churches.

 

[Princely]

So you think the golden rule only applies correctly to... lip service? Well I guess that does describe many of the churches.

Lip service for the Lord is what is right.The churches do not teach to follow the son of man as He was sent.

"By your words you'll be forgiven or by your words you'll be condemned."

That verse says that lip service is exactly what saves.

"The words of the upright are what save them but the speach of the wicked is a deadly ambush".


"You have defied me in word, says the Lord, yet you ask, "What have we spoken against you?"
You have said, "It is vain to serve God, and what do we profit by keeping his command, And going about in penitential dress in awe of the Lord of hosts?
Rather must we call the proud blessed; for indeed evildoers prosper, and even tempt God with impunity." Then they who fear the Lord spoke with one another, and the Lord listened attentively; And a record book was written before him of those who fear the Lord and trust in his name.
And they shall be mine, says the Lord of hosts, my own special possession, on the day I take action. And I will have compassion on them, as a man has compassion on his son who serves him. Then you will again see the distinction between the just and the wicked; Between him who serves God, and him who does not serve him. "

The righteous fear the Lord and serve Him, the wicked do not. So man is either righteous or wicked there are no inbetweens.

 

[Lunitik]

The righteous fear the Lord.

This is utterly disgusting, why will you fear love? It is hardly surprising this world is so lost when things like this are stated. I find it difficult to believe God has said such a thing, perhaps it is mistranslated and "revere" was intended? No true religious man fears God though, they all wish to come as close as possible but fear means to desire escape.

Any religion that trumpets fear cannot be of love, it is utterly impossible because they are completely opposite. If your religion is not trying to fill your heart with love, it is simply false.

 

[Princely]

This is utterly disgusting, why will you fear love? It is hardly surprising this world is so lost when things like this are stated. I find it difficult to believe God has said such a thing, perhaps it is mistranslated and "revere" was intended? No true religious man fears God though, they all wish to come as close as possible but fear means to desire escape.

Any religion that trumpets fear cannot be of love, it is utterly impossible because they are completely opposite. If your religion is not trying to fill your heart with love, it is simply false.

You think like man not like God. Until you can think like God you cannot understand His ways. Learn the love of the Lord and walk in the light.

Let me tell you who you should fear, fear him who has the power to kill body and soul and cast you into Gehenna.

I fear the Lord and seek the love of my Father which you do not know. If you knew me you would know my Fathers love as well. Like I have said to others, If you do not come to believe I AM you will surely die in your sin.

If the son frees you, you will truly be free.

 

[Lunitik]

You think like man not like God. Until you can think like God you cannot understand His ways. Learn the love of the Lord and walk in the light.

Naught but arrogance on your part, I walk in the light of God at all times, and this is exactly why I cannot fathom fear.

Let me tell you who you should fear, fear him who has the power to kill body and soul and cast you into Gehenna.

To what end? His will be done, and yet he resides in me and I am that part... he would be killing part of himself so your God becomes a masochist - so, that's neat.

I fear the Lord and seek the love of my Father which you do not know. If you knew me you would know my Fathers love as well. Like I have said to others, If you do not come to believe I AM you will surely die in your sin.

So your God is also not all loving? I have melted in His love, died to myself, I am that I am - belief is irrelevant, believing in food does not quench hunger, you have to eat.

If the son frees you, you will truly be free.

Who has saved the Son? That same has saved me.

 

[Princely]

Naught but arrogance on your part, I walk in the light of God at all times, and this is exactly why I cannot fathom fear.



To what end? His will be done, and yet he resides in me and I am that part... he would be killing part of himself so your God becomes a masochist - so, that's neat.



So your God is also not all loving? I have melted in His love, died to myself, I am that I am - belief is irrelevant, believing in food does not quench hunger, you have to eat.



Who has saved the Son? That same has saved me.

You have not melted in His love or walk in His light. If you had you would know me and keep my words.I am the light of the world, no one who follows me will ever walk in darkness because he will possess the light of life.Whoever refuses to honor the son refuses to honor the Father who sent Him. The man who wants to come to me will hear my words and put them into practice. Anyone who hears my words and does not keep them I'm not the one to condemn him cause I did not come to condemn the world but to save it. Anyone who rejects me and does not accept my words, he already has his judge, namely the words I've spoken, that's what will condemn him on the last day.

I am the bread of life.
this is the bread that comes down from heaven so that one may eat it and never die.
I am the living bread that came down from heaven; whoever eats this bread will live forever; and the bread that I will give is my flesh for the life of the world.
Truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you.
Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood possesses eternal life, and I will raise him on the last day.
For my flesh is true food, and my blood is honest drink. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me and I in him.
Just as the Lord who sent me has life so too do I have life because of the Lord, so also the one who feeds on me will have life because of me.
Whoever eats this bread will live forever.

Only the son knows the Father and only the Father knows the son.

You are not the son nor my brother, if you were you would know the truth and be One in the Most High.

"The words of the upright are what save them"

"The words of the Lord are upright"

"By your words you'll be forgiven or by your words you'll be condemned".

"I the Lord speak the truth I say what is right.Speak the truth to one another, judge justly, and let honesty and peace be in your home town".

"All those who do right shall rise to live."

 

[Lunitik]

The problem is that you think it is Jesus talking, that he is not merely a vessel himself for the divine.

Jesus says "Do not think it is me that does these things, but rather it is the father doing these things through me". I am likewise guided to speak certain things, to bring to balance extremes which are encountered. Like Jesus, there is no need to continuously quote, I only quote dead words for the spiritually dead, else there is no need. Truth is self evident, but you are too much blinded by your beliefs.

Do you see that you are dropping your individuality? Personality is false, but all are sent with particular missions, all are unique. If you have something to say, speak freely, but do not live in the jail of your mind any longer - this is all beliefs are, jail bars.

 

[NiceCupOfTea]

God have mercy on us for the millions of Jewish lives we have lost as a result of that "Christian love relationship with God" throughout History.
Ben

People die all time through violance the history of mankind is full of it, jews are no exception to this and they are certainly as capable as any oner group of dishing it out.

 

[Princely]

The problem is that you think it is Jesus talking, that he is not merely a vessel himself for the divine.

Jesus says "Do not think it is me that does these things, but rather it is the father doing these things through me". I am likewise guided to speak certain things, to bring to balance extremes which are encountered. Like Jesus, there is no need to continuously quote, I only quote dead words for the spiritually dead, else there is no need. Truth is self evident, but you are too much blinded by your beliefs.

Do you see that you are dropping your individuality? Personality is false, but all are sent with particular missions, all are unique. If you have something to say, speak freely, but do not live in the jail of your mind any longer - this is all beliefs are, jail bars.

No,you reject the command of the son, to continue in His words and go into the world with the same message as he gave is to become the teacher He was. People cannot say they accept His words without speaking them as he did. That is doing the works He did.The words are the works. Everyone must speak the truth and walk in the light. As he said and I say;

"What I have done that is what you must do.As the Lord sent me that is how I send you."

Whoever betrays the son, it would be better for him to have a millstone wrapped around his neck and thrown into the sea.

I may be quoting the Lord but His words were given to me because I accepted them. Those words have just as much meaning when I spread them as when Jesus did. We are One with the Father as all those who accept His command shall be.

Whoever accepts the One I send accepts me and whoever accepts me accepts the One who sent me.

I do nothing on my own; I judge as I hear, and my judgment is just, because I’m not seeking my own will but the will of the one who sent me. The Lord who sent me has testified on my behalf. But you have never heard his voice nor seen his form,
and you do not have his word remaining in you, because you do not believe in the One whom he has sent. Search the scriptures if you think you have eternal life through them; even they testify on my behalf.
But you do not want to come to me to have life.

I am son of man. Remember this verse; Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

"I'm going to make right a measuring line and justice a level".That's the Lord who lives in me and I in Him.

 

[Lunitik]

No,you reject the command of the son

Not at all, I simply say the Son had no command, but merely talked that which the father compelled him... and I say to you that I do the same as he. Jesus is nothing if God doesn't choose him, and I have no loyalty to flesh for I know his true state. Jesus has bowed to God, I do the same, why will you bow to the servant when you can go directly to the true master? Jesus himself says all that have surrendered to God, who have accepted the Holy Spirit, are his equal. You have continued as his subordinate, you look at the man instead of God, and for me this is blasphemy. Throughout the Old Testament, God is telling us he is jealous, yet the Christians barely revere him, everything is addressed to the Son.

 

[Lunitik]

People die all time through violance the history of mankind is full of it, jews are no exception to this and they are certainly as capable as any oner group of dishing it out.

No one has killed as much as the Christians, not even the Muslims - albeit they are catching up. The Abrahamic line has never seen peace, it is strange that so many choose it for their own peace. Jerusalem means "Place of Peace", yet what city on earth has seen so much violence? Something seems to be basically wrong with this covenant, but people simply accept that which their parents instructed them.

So strange that while Abraham is almost dead, the two sons continue to fight with one another. They seem compelled to repeat that of the first brothers of the Bible - they seem insistent on killing the other. Will the brothers ever come back together? I do not see how either can be of God based on their current hostilities, this is not love at all but rather the exact opposite of it.

 

[Princely]

Not at all, I simply say the Son had no command, but merely talked that which the father compelled him... and I say to you that I do the same as he. Jesus is nothing if God doesn't choose him, and I have no loyalty to flesh for I know his true state. Jesus has bowed to God, I do the same, why will you bow to the servant when you can go directly to the true master? Jesus himself says all that have surrendered to God, who have accepted the Holy Spirit, are his equal. You have continued as his subordinate, you look at the man instead of God, and for me this is blasphemy. Throughout the Old Testament, God is telling us he is jealous, yet the Christians barely revere him, everything is addressed to the Son.

Why is it you believe God told Jesus what to say and yet do not believe He told Him to command.Whoever belongs to God ,hears the words of God.The reason you cannot hear me is you do not belong to God.Furthermore,I am not christian, I am son of man. Jesus and I are One with God the Father and all the prophets. I revere my Father and do as He instructed me.

As the Father says; "Seek me so you will live".

"Seek justice seek humility,perhaps you'll be sheltered on the day of the Lords anger".

You do not have the Holy Spirit in you or you would be clothed in justice and the love of the Lord.

The Spirit of the Lord is upon me; He has anointed me . He has sent me to bring glad tidings to the poor, to proclaim liberty to the captives and give sight to the blind, to let the oppressed go free, and to proclaim a year of favor from the Lord.

 

[Ben Masada]

Yes, that is what I said, Being blameless is being perfect in the eyes' of God. The scripture the Lord gave us describes how to be perfect and that is to walk in the Law of the Lord, as Jesus and the son of man do.

So, you said wrong. The second part of the Decalogue is composed of six commandments that relate to one another. They are under the denomination of Golden Rule and, according to the gospels, Jesus broke it more than once.

It doesn't matter to God that Jesus did those things because they were forgiven by His service to the Father. That is why the son of man says;

If Jesus needed to be forgiven, as you assert above, it is because he had sinned. Therefore, no longer perfect or blameless.

so if you speak and spread the truth you are forgiven your sins,

As far as I am concerned, you are saying that's okay to serve two masters: Sin, and if you spreads the truth, he is forgiven. Sin in one's flesh and truth in one's mind. (Rom. 7:25)

I am the good shepherd, I know my sheep and my sheep know me, just as the Father knows me and I know the Father; To these sheep I will give my life.

Nobody on an individual basis can give his life for another. Every one of us is supposed to die for his own iniquity. (Jer. 31:30; Exo. 32:33)

I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish. No one can take them out of my hand.

No man can be given eternal life. This attribute was denied to man when he was banished from the Garden of Eden. (Gen. 3:22)

The Lord and I are one. If I do not perform my Father's works, do not believe me; but if I perform them, even if you do not believe me, put faith in the works, so that you may realize that the Lord is in me and I am in the Lord.

This is a declaration that fits only to a Greek demigod. Jesus was a Jewish man whose Faith was Judaism. There is no such a thing as Greek Mythology in Judaism.

Ben

 

[Ben Masada]

I thought I might comment on this. The origins of Replacement Theology are "Pauline," but I don't believe Paul was the one who created or invented Replacement Theology. What Paul proposed was Olive Tree Theology. It was the Later Christians who created Replacement Theology, which I think is really a misinterpretation of Paul's Olive Tree Theology.

When Paul proposed this theology, the Jewish Temple in Jerusalem was still standing. The Sanhedrin was still functioning and Jerusalem was the centre of both Judaism and the newly-emerging "Christianity." The Christianity that existed there was different once again to what we have now, considering that the Jerusalem Church was still around.

The absence of the Jerusalem Church was what led to Replacement Theology. The Jerusalem Church represented the "Christianity" that we lost. Replacement Theology suggests that the Mosaic Covenant was somehow transferred to Gentile Christians, that "Jewishness" wasn't strictly about what Judaism represents today. The Jerusalem Church was never around to approve of such an idea, due to the destruction of Jerusalem.

What Paul says in Romans 10:12 and Galatians 3:28 about "no difference between Jew and Gentile" is misleading. He is right that Jews and Gentiles are fundamentally equal, but that doesn't mean that Gentiles can suddenly start defining "Jewishness." Jews grew up with the Torah. Gentiles grew up with something else. The Torah makes you Jewish. The Gospel makes you Christian.

The Jerusalem Church still saw themselves as different to Gentile Christians. This is what led to the Apostolic Decree (similar to the Seven Noahide Laws). Even Paul saw Jews and Gentiles as different. In Romans 11:20 he says to the Gentiles, "do not be arrogant, but be afraid" because in verse 18 he says "you do not support the root, but the root supports you." In Romans 11:24 he calls Judaism the "cultivated olive tree." The branches that broke off (Romans 11:17-24) are not the Pharisees, but the Nazarenes who broke away from mainstream Judaism. The cultivated olive tree always has to have roots and because the Nazarenes/Jerusalem Church were destroyed, there was nobody left to be the roots but the Pharisees. The "roots" are not the Gospel as Replacement Theology assumes, but rather the Torah and the rabbinical tradition that the Pharisees established shortly after.

Because Christians are still part of the wild olive tree, it also means we have yet to be grafted into the cultivated olive tree. To be grafted into the cultivated olive tree we may indeed need to accept and conform to rabbinical tradition (the roots). It is actually quite scary, to think that we need to look to another tradition to make meaning of our own .......... the even bigger problem is getting all 2.2 billion Christians to take part in this process of being grafted onto the other tree.

As you are well aware, Paul was the one who wrote the Letter to the Galatians. In Galatians 4:21-31 he compares the Sinaitic Covenant to Hagar the servant of Sara and the Jews to Ismael. Then, he compares Christianity to Sara and Christians to Isaac. At the end, he advises to cast away Hagar with her son on the reason that they cannot share the inheritance with Christianity. That's Replacement Theology. The replacement of Judaism by Christianity.
Ben

 

[Ben Masada]

Yet you believe you are not doing something Bad here, in the exact same manner? Do you believe your accusation has any merit, as you are breaking your own stated belief? Some children tell their parents, "You are bad for calling me bad". Have you thought that one through?

Why do you point to this one instead of, "Serpents! Brood of Vipers!"? In my opinion, that would be a bit stronger for your point. Unless of course you are also selfishly including the demand that others give to you whatever you demand, lest they be breaking that golden rule. Was it just the verbage, or do you mean to imply that Jesus was also doing Bad for not giving people whatever they wanted?

Thank you for reminding me of other instances which, according to the gospels, Jesus broke the Golden Rule. When he addressed to the Jewish authorities as serpents and brood of vipers. Do you really believe he did that? I don't because he followed the same Pharisaic orientation. But you are right; to name call others with names we would not like they called us with, is indeed a transgression of the Golden Rule.
Ben

 

[Lunitik]

Why is it you believe God told Jesus what to say and yet do not believe He told Him to command.Whoever belongs to God ,hears the words of God.The reason you cannot hear me is you do not belong to God.Furthermore,I am not christian, I am son of man. Jesus and I are One with God the Father and all the prophets. I revere my Father and do as He instructed me.

I believe God spoke through Jesus, I uphold all that Jesus has said for that reason. I have a huge problem with the Christianity that arose around him, but I love the man dearly because he has said many important things. You have not become a Christ, you still cling to Jesus and thus cannot have attained to your divinity. This is why I speak against your statements, not for their content. It is precisely because you speak the words of a book rather than the words God is still speaking today that I reject you, not because the words in that book don't hold deep meaning. You make Jesus something distinct because of your insistence on clinging to him, I am simply the one - there is no distinction whatsoever.

"Seek justice seek humility,perhaps you'll be sheltered on the day of the Lords anger".

Premediated anger cannot be of God, and nor can humility - when has God ever shown himself humble in the Bible? Humility is the other pole of arrogance, neither are so in oneness. Anger of the one can only be in response to something as it too is a particular pole, this seems to be only to instill fear in people. I uphold the Lords Justice, however, wholeheartedly, and for this reason I have said this whole paragraph. What is justice in reality? It is a balancing, God is the source of all but detached from them all, in the convergence of all opposites is oneness, but also annihilation as matter and anti-matter when touched together. This is the experience of divination, the subjective and objective, the inner and outer, all opposites converge and then annihilate in man, but God is the objectification of love, you are the subjectification of love. This is what people mean why they proclaim Jesus is fully man and fully God - all that remains is love.

The Spirit of the Lord is upon me; He has anointed me . He has sent me to bring glad tidings to the poor, to proclaim liberty to the captives and give sight to the blind, to let the oppressed go free, and to proclaim a year of favor from the Lord.

I again doubt because you remain in duality, you have not realized it is your own spirit, that you are the Lord. Jesus has realized it and rightly claims the title of Messiah, but for me you do not even understand Divine Love. Love is that experience of oneness, if you truly walk in the light, you know you cannot be something distinct. Let us recall that it is not Jesus who has written the Gospels, it is the understanding of the Apostles that is read. It is simply hearsay at this point, at least 100 years later. Still most things were not decided until priests gathered 350 years later, why do they have authority to declare anything? It is only because other men and indeed a Cesar has given it to them. Yet, this is what you base your whole reality on, and because you state clear errors I cannot say you have attained anything but a glimpse at most.

 

[Ben Masada]

The golden rule is only used correctly if you speak the word of God to others that is how to love others as you would have them love you. That is why He said "this is the Law and the prophets" because that is what the prophets did.They tell the law ,the word of the Lord to others.That is why Jesus said to continue in His word, His teaching.That is why He said to do what He has done, to go into the world as He was sent with the same mission and message.


Matt 7:12 "In everything do to others as you would have them do to you; for this is the law and the prophets. "Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the road is easy that leads to destruction, and there are many who take it. For the gate is narrow and the road is hard that leads to life, and there are few who find it".

"You've been told what is good and what the Lord requires of you, only to do what is right, love goodness, and walk humbly with the Lord your God."

"All those who do right shall rise to live, those who do evil will rise to be damned".

The Golden Rule, as you mention here according to Matthew, is wrong. "To do unto others as you would have them do unto you" is not the way Hillel meant it to be. If one wishes to commit suicide, should he go out killing others so that they would kill him? If you can think of this logic, it does not make sense. The Golden Rule goes thus: Do not do unto others what you would not like they did unto you. Quite different and logical.
Ben