About occultists

[Nick the Pilot]

Andrew,

I would add these two titles to your list:

Ninth Initiation, The Lord of the World
Tenth Initiation, The Silent Watcher

It's also a good opportunity to point out a mistake that many people make between Buddhas and Pratyeka Buddhas (both of which are eighth-level Initiates). Many people describe Pratyeka Buddhas as 'selfish Buddhas' but they are not. Pratyeka Buddhas lead whereas (regular) Buddhas teach, guide, and provide compassion. Many people have misinterpreted the ideas that Pratyeka Buddhas do not teach, guide, and provide compassion to mean they are 'selfish.'

 

[Lunitik]

Thus, I must respectfully disagree.

Have you experienced it?

If you have not experienced the dark night of the soul, how can you disagree with someone who has come through the other side when he says it is like a death?

 

[seattlegal]

Thank you, Seattlegal.

Chitta can also be translated as mindstuff, but it should be pointed out that for esotericsts it is considered the innate substance or MATTER, the stuff of the mental [manasic] plane as a whole. It is like physical matter and astral matter, except that while the former is characterized by motion and composes the `extensible world' [the res extensa of Descartes] ... and while the astral is self-luminous [hence the term `astral'], being the `stuff' which composes our - and anyone's - emotions ... the mental world is the Res cogitans of Descartes, and its *inherent* quality is the Principle we call Mind [Manas, individually, Ma'at or Mahat in the Macrocosm].

Pabhassara Sutta: Luminous

"Luminous, monks, is the mind.[1] {citta--sg} And it is defiled by incoming defilements." {I,v,9}
"Luminous, monks, is the mind. And it is freed from incoming defilements." {I,v,10}
"Luminous, monks, is the mind. And it is defiled by incoming defilements. The uninstructed run-of-the-mill person doesn't discern that as it actually is present, which is why I tell you that — for the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person — there is no development of the mind." {I,vi,1}
"Luminous, monks, is the mind. And it is freed from incoming defilements. The well-instructed disciple of the noble ones discerns that as it actually is present, which is why I tell you that — for the well-instructed disciple of the noble ones — there is development of the mind." {I,vi,2}​

The personality in many esoteric teachings is viewed as threefold, or even fourfold. It is, in short, the shadow self or the shadow [of Jungian psychology] ... also the `body' of Pauline Christianity, and the Dweller on the Threshold known in occult teachings. It is composed of the lower mental body [lower manas with its mental vehicle, subject to destruction & reformation with each new birth], plus the astral body and the etheric double & aura. These are expressed through the dense physical body of solid, liquid & gaseous matter, yet the dense body is not a spiritual Principle in occult teachings [as are the other aspects of the Personality].

Citta determines personality, and is etymologically realted to the word "To Will." Purification of the citta is so important as it helps to stabilize personality.

 

[Lunitik]

Citta determines personality, and is etymologically realted to the word "To Will." Purification of the citta is so important as it helps to stabilize personality.

Buddha has not willed that he teach, he has been convinced to teach - why do you think this is told if will is important to Buddhists? If we are to see that we are not separate, how then can will survive? My use of personality is that which we are programmed with, it is the false self, a persona based on social encounters and figuring out what works and what does not. Individuality is certainly to be upheld, but is wholly different. Individuality is not based on the past at all, it is that unique quality within us which we exist to share. The individual responds to this moment freshly, the personality reacts to this moment based on a kind of training. I hope you understand the differences between the two, although it is subtle.

You have said citta means either mind or heart, I say it refers to pure consciousness free from thinking. It is the Mind, as apposed to the mind, as many Buddhists try to differentiate. It is easier simply to say it is the raw consciousness, the clear sky without clouds passing through, whereas mind is the collection of clouds which we normally identify with. It is a very subtle distinction, and one which many scholars will miss because they do not understand, but this has to be the whole emphasis if you will ever learn from Buddha. When you reach that pure state without clouds distracting you, then you will know the real, if you are trying to hold on to the clouds and give power to them, nothing Buddha says will be a help. Now you make Buddha a philosopher, this is almost criminal because it is utterly opposed to his teaching.

The worst mistake without making this distinction is that you will believe mind is limited to head, it is unlimited if you can drop this belief. Consciousness is what our reality is made of, everything consists of it, and you can experience yourself in each and every thing which exists. They say God is omnipresent, now you understand why, you are in everything and yet you are nowhere in particular. You can also understand omnipotent, this is the occult arts, you can manipulate reality knowing it is not something concrete - this is very dangerous, so mind must be controlled when this becomes your experience, any stray thought can have dire consequences. Omniscience is there because you have never not existed, past and future merge into the present and so you know all, now you simply enjoy without worrying, it simply makes sense so you go with the flow. These are all things which man can experience if the limited mind is dropped, that which I say gives rise to the ego, the identifications with the form, the insistence that you are something distinct and necessary to uphold.

 

[seattlegal]

Buddha used a clear water simile in the manner you use your clear sky analogy:

Udakarahaka Suttas: A Pool of Water

Now as to to whether you want to see the gravel rocks, etc, so you can actively refute them--"this is not my Self," or if you want to just ignore them is the difference between developing skillful means and living by faith, imo.

 

[Lunitik]

Buddha used a clear water simile in the manner you use your clear sky analogy:

Udakarahaka Suttas: A Pool of Water

Now as to to whether you want to see the gravel rocks, etc, so you can actively refute them--"this is not my Self," or if you want to just ignore them is the difference between developing skillful means and living by faith, imo.

Refute and ignore are both negative activities, thus neither are what he means by skillful.

Skillful is your ability to watch what is happening, the phenomenon that arises, and simply remain detached. This is not something negative, you are not avoiding, but it is not something positive either, you remain separate from the event.

Now, this will look strange since Buddha says all is interdependent and not separate, but through this practice there is gradually a space between the phenomenon and you which forms. Gradually this results in (re)discovery of dharmakaya, the truth body, what you actually are. Now you are one with truth, but you can still enjoy illusion while you remain with the physical body, knowing what is false, there is no problem, it is simply a vehicle you can use to interact in this place. It is not that you say "this is false" though, this is again the mind arising, the ego is trying to come back in...

It is like watching a movie, you will respond to what is on the screen, you will enjoy the events depicted, but you are not in it, you simply witness. You do not have to acknowledge it is a movie to know you are detached from the scene. This is the distinction between your intelligence and vision which the sutra discusses - I cannot call it knowledge because knowledge is something acquired, this is a state when what has been acquired has been dropped and you become pure again.

These corrections are of translation, not my insistence I know better than Buddha, I simply understand what he actually means. Such errors must be corrected, else the seeker will be in trouble.

 

[taijasi]

Andrew,

I would add these two titles to your list:

Ninth Initiation, The Lord of the World
Tenth Initiation, The Silent Watcher

It's also a good opportunity to point out a mistake that many people make between Buddhas and Pratyeka Buddhas (both of which are eighth-level Initiates). Many people describe Pratyeka Buddhas as 'selfish Buddhas' but they are not. Pratyeka Buddhas lead whereas (regular) Buddhas teach, guide, and provide compassion. Many people have misinterpreted the ideas that Pratyeka Buddhas do not teach, guide, and provide compassion to mean they are 'selfish.'

Thanks Nick, and good point ... yes, that's very confusing to one who first starts studying the topic of Initiation. It doesn't remove the conundrums altogether, though. For instance, one of the Kumaras is mentioned in the Agni Yoga teachings as essentially being directly opposed to SK in his aims ... although, ironically, he was one of the 105 who first arrived here ~18mya. Rightly, this rogue Kumara doesn't deserve the name or title that usually gets applied, as the Lightbearers are SK and the remaining esoteric and exoteric Kumaras (of which there are 3 each, one set of which are the future Lords of the World on Mercury).

Again, the Tibetan Master speaks of the "two who fell," again referring to the Kumaras, in this case meaning fell into Generation. Plenty of Mysteries ...

Have you experienced it?

If you have not experienced the dark night of the soul, how can you disagree with someone who has come through the other side when he says it is like a death?

Yes, my friend, and yourself?

I am in the midst of mine, and I recognize those who have emerged triumphant, as well as those who struggle alongside - having theirs. It's not too hard to detect a fib, either.

{Perhaps a bit of discussion regarding what this means - this Long Dark Night - would be in order? If so, start simple, please. Let's start by focusing on who and what is struggling with who and what. I will approach it, as I know Nick will, from something of a Theosophical angle ... but the same motif is of course depicted in every single religion, every tradition imaginable - sometimes more clearly, often quite couched in symbolism & suggestion.}

No, you are right, however. It is not like death. It is death. You will die. Not just again, and again, and again. But I mean YOU .... will die.

That's a hard realization. Please don't force it on anyone around here. I don't think everyone's quite ready for it yet.

St. Paul offers us insight ... "I die daily." Christ Jesus demonstrated the Arhat Initiation, yet it was necessary in his case to part with the physical body. It isn't always necessary that a physical death occur, but often this is so. That point lies far ahead for you and for me.

But indeed, I have known, still know, those who have undergone this Initiation. And every Master of the 5th, 6th Initiation or higher also most certainly knows what it is like. It does not require so much imagination for those approaching that Initiation. For you and for me, however, we can but seek to minimize the interference of the little self, and do our best to embody the Higher Ideal(s).

Best of luck to you ... and to us all!

It isn't a matter of whether, after all. It's just all down to WHEN!
{God willing, Humanity will pick up on this sooner rather than later, and IN TIME for getting a head start as we move into Aquarius ...}

Namaskar

 

[Snoopy]

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[Lunitik]

For me, the dark night of the soul was utterly dismal, I saw no point in anything at all, I wondered why I was even alive, I wondered why this existence is so, I wondered whether all this was a dream and eventually I'd wake up. Nothing seemed worthwhile, things I used to enjoy, I was just going through the motions now. At my absolute lowest I asked God to show me the point to all this, and gradually he began pointing things out to me subtly. As things moved along it became crystal clear intellectually what was happening to me, but where is the end? Then one day I read a simple quote from Buddha and my mind seemed to run off its tracks contemplating it. I couldn't stop it, it just kept racing but subconsciously, nothing was tangible... then it stopped. What was left? I was left, was I an opposite to something? Everything external had been reduced to God, was this my opposite? Could these be merged? I remembered Christs words: God is love... was I love? All that exists is love, and I was gone. I was absent for 6 hours that day, remembering only a few seconds. When I came out of it, I had such energy, I was still bursting, I wanted to go every which way, explore everything, but in everything wanting to go every direction I just remained still, watching. Still I burst with love, but it is no more unmanageable. It is still my state, pure contentment, happiness for no reason, not wanting for anything, heaven.

 

[Lunitik]

That willingness to be nothing, that utter let-go, that surrender is the key. The dark night is simply a contrast, just become indifferent to it and let it happen, look at it and understand. You aren't giving up much really, just everything you think you are, but it is the price for truth. Only that concept of "I" dies, it was just an idea, maya, an illusion you empowered and can just as easily drop if you can stop identifying with it. You will have to trust though, you have to understand what is fighting is not you, you are watching the struggle but it is separate.

 

[Nick the Pilot]

"...the "two who fell," again referring to the Kumaras, in this case meaning fell into Generation."

--> There is another interpretation to idea of falling, and it is that the Kumaras (or someone else) needed to supply more help to the flegling human race in those early days but refused to do so, which is one of the key issues mentioned in the Stanzas of Dzyan and The Secret Doctrine. (And the debate rages on as to why they did not provide such badly needed assistance.) But their refusal to give assistance is The Fall, is the true meaning behind the meaning of the Fall of the Devil, and is why Lucifer is despised by so many of the world's religions.

By the way, there were three Falls, and Lucifer's Fall was only one of the three.

 

[taijasi]

Thanks for sharing some details of your experiences, Lunitik. The Path of Initiation is one in which there is a Dark Night of the Soul taking place preceding, surrounding and even following upon the 4th Initiation, or `Renunciation.' The Buddha was said to have helped 900 such Arhats pass on through this stage in spiritual evolution.

The result? No more Causal Body. The Soul is Liberated ... and moves on to higher work. At that point, the Monad is directly incarnate via the personality ... a direct link occurs, and this means that the person in question literally incarnates the Divine.

Such beings, arhats or Adepts, are rare. Perhaps we have bumped into without knowing. Perhaps we have been fortunate enough to meet people like this, whether or not we realized just how evolved they are. The coming Buddha, Maitreya Bodhisattva, is called the Buddha of 10,000 Arhats ... suggesting that the number of souls to attain Liberation through his aegis, assistance and influence will be something like 10 times the number that achieved with Shakyamuni Buddha's help. This assumes that we are looking into the future, of course.

So, there are many experiences that we can undergo which could be comparable to the Long Dark Night of the Soul. The Tibetan Master assures us that even when we are certain that this must be what is happening, it is much more likely the 2nd Initiation, since this too can be extremely painful and challenging for some disciples ... especially students on the 2nd Ray, if I recall.

At any rate, there are many dozens of lesser initiations, and we all take these from day to day, or month to month, or year to year. Two significant `probationary' or preparatory initiations are said to precede the Birth, or first true Initiation. The Tibetan also reminds us, however, that the first SIRIAN Initiation is the 3rd, or Transfiguration [as it is known to Christian esotericists, or the Hamsa (swan), as it is known in the East]. Meeting a 3rd Degree Initiate is less rare ... but many of these do not carry the awareness in the brain consciousness. Rather, the proof of their attainment lies in their work, their character and in certain other indications which we can learn to see (or intuit).

Certainly it is possible to wrongly assess another person - or oneself - along these lines. Thus, we may vastly over-rate our spiritual status, or we may even under-estimate where we actually stand. Better not to obsess at all; better to practice the Dharma, as a good Friend used to tell me.

Anyway, I certainly wish you the best in the Journey ahead. Each new day offers untold Opportunity. Before we know it, we'll be exactly where we need to be ... as indeed, the best way to prepare oneself for Initiation is to forget about it and simply carry out our spiritual (Service-oriented) Responsibility.

This doesn't mean we can't discuss the subject, or talk about how the Path Ideal has been presented in both East and West ... symbolized, illustrated and embodied. That, at least it seems to me, is an inexhaustible topic! We just have to be careful not to deceive ourselves. It is natural to want, to seek and to hope for spiritual Liberation. It is also possible to hypnotize oneself, or to become quite convinced we are liberated ... when in fact, this is quite obviously not the case. Perhaps the best we can do in such situations, is to simply smile ... and offer encouragement.

Other times, we must remain altogether quiet, for while we may not wish to offend, we also must be careful not to add fuel to someone's fire. In this case, since we are discussing the subject frankly and openly, I am going to tread carefully ... but I am also not going to pretend, or join the tea party simply because the mad hatter sometimes amuses me. Therefore, my fellow Pilgrim, let's just agree that we are all quite fortunate to have the opportunities that we have been given.

I dare say, pretty well everyone who posts or stops by at Interfaith.org is on the Spiritual Path. But as for advanced Initiates? MAYBE ... again, who's to say? It certainly isn't you or me, however.

Maybe Nick has a thought or two. I feel quite certain that he has bumped into an old soul here or there (ha!). Some experiences, I realize, are quite personal ... and do not need posting on public forums. Others, especially if details are removed or identities preserved, can be shared. I have no problems whatsoever, for example, mentioning encounters with the Masters ... whether my own, or those of others. I am especially careful in the latter case, and even where I have my own certainties or awareness, I do usually try to tailor what I have to say to the occasion.

Waiving a flag that says, "I am there, I have attained, I am done" however ... THIS really only proves one thing. And indeed, the Emperor does like to air out the wardrobe ... from time to time.

 

[Lunitik]

The "fall" is the final part, letting go utterly, allowing yourself to be nothingness.

How troublesome it is will depend on how attached you are to the mind, it is only the mind which is 'falling", if you can be detached it is not so bad. I go on saying it is like death because for the mind it will be, and if you are believing yourself to be the mind you are in trouble, you will become so scared you will never go into it again.

This needn't be a long process though, just don't give the mind any attention, allow what is happening to run its course. This is why you have to become utterly desireless though, you will want to wait to accomplish whatever desire you have, you will be very easily distracted, any justification will permit you to come out of it. Once you stop yourself from falling, it is hard to permit it to happen again, you will avoid because now mind is back in control.

 

[taijasi]

"...the "two who fell," again referring to the Kumaras, in this case meaning fell into Generation."

--> There is another interpretation to idea of falling, and it is that the Kumaras (or someone else) needed to supply more help to the flegling human race in those early days but refused to do so. (And the debate rages on as to why they did not.) But this refusal to give assistance is The Fall, is the true meaning behind the meaning of the Fall of the Devil, and is why Lucifer is despised by so many of the world's religions.

Well, yes, but we find mention in some places - and it is echoes in others - that the Plans of the Hierarchy, as well as those of Shambhala Itself, are opposed directly. We know that this is the aim of the Black Lodge, on the one hand, but Master DK also provides instruction on the unfortunate situation during WWI and WWII. Cosmic evil found resonance, and - at our stage of planetary unfoldment - this is not good. We are also assured by the same Master, speaking on behalf of the Christ and the entire Hierarchy, that the situation is well under control; Sirian Masters are dealing with it. The Cosmic Avatar from Sirius, also, could probably swat down the opposition like bugs ... yet what would this do for human Free Will and karma?

I refer to the notion that we are dealing with a rather insidious force or presence, and that the notion of global destabilization was - and is - the aim. The consequences of this, if we want to grasp it, would be ... something like the asteroid belt between Mars and Jupiter. Once upon a time, when that Humanity was perhaps at a similar stage (or one parallel), things didn't quite go according to Plan ... and instead of an abortion, as on the Moon Chain, I gather we had more of - well, an explosion. So much for THAT scheme!

Yes, it's a bit much, so I don't enjoy even thinking about it. Two schemes merged, we now have the `Earth Scheme,' and tomorrow is another day.

The subject of the Kumaras is fairly involved, but my studies of the SD haven't quite taken me to a precise understanding of the order of events. I know we can speak of two `Falls' - one for which Humanity is more culpable than the other (the 2nd). In the first case, we find the Kumaras deeming the outer forms *unfit* for their entering, for their incarnation. But their error resulted in the need to make even greater sacrifices ... taking on vehicles which I gather weren't at *all* what they might have preferred. Master DK reminds us that we really aren't in the proper position to judge, or even to fully grasp just what are the factors involved - at least for the beings in question. If we consider their point in evolution, one may well ask the question, WHY would they need to incarnate AT ALL, to begin with?

And this, we are told, is a bit of a Mystery, because technically it was not required, is not required ... and therefore the Soul IS the Sacrificial Lamb, perhaps echoing - in the microcosm - the Macrocosmic "Lamb that was slain from the foundation of the world."

 

[Lunitik]

The result? No more Causal Body. The Soul is Liberated ... and moves on to higher work. At that point, the Monad is directly incarnate via the personality ... a direct link occurs, and this means that the person in question literally incarnates the Divine.

I have only read this far, I will perhaps read the rest later although I am about to leave the house...

What you have said is erroneous, however, since this infers there are two beings. While the witness - what is conveyed by 'soul' - is liberated, it remains with the body until the body dies. You are an incarnation of God as you are, an expression of him. You only need drop your illusions and see the truth in this. Personality, the patterns of behavior based on learning, is utterly dropped but memories are still accessible. The body still functions as a vehicle also, but all distinctions are dropped. Yet, what does it mean to incarnate? This means there is some distance, some distinction, between this plane and the spiritual. This is but another duality, material and spiritual are both here now. If you have not melted utterly into the divine, after a certain point, you will be reborn into another plane without a body, but the eternal witness is aware of that as well. You have remained with desires, and now you can do nothing, you are not material. You just wonder around looking for a ... well, a medium. For what though, you have not yet allowed yourself to surrender... you are still clinging to something, you are unwilling to go all the way.

 

[taijasi]

I have only read this far, I will perhaps read the rest later although I am about to leave the house...

What you have said is erroneous, however, since this infers there are two beings. While the witness - what is conveyed by 'soul' - is liberated, it remains with the body until the body dies.

Well, in the Ageless Wisdom, there are two beings. That's just the trick. It's a difficult subject.

The Agnishvatta, or Manasaputra, is the Soul. In simple terms, *this* is something like a Nirmanakaya ... a Nirvanee [jivanmukta] from a prior cycle of Human evolution. As such, the Soul is ANCIENT, and attained to Liberation far, far ago ... when none of us was even yet incarnate in the Human Kingdom. At best, we may have been undergoing the equivalent of the animal Kingdom, on some other globe or scheme of evolution [dvipas, as they are termed in Hinduism], at the same time as our Souls were achieving Liberation from the Human Kingdom.

On the Moon Chain, we know that circumstances were quite different than they are at present ... and I came across similar teaching just the other day regarding different methods of INCARNATION of the Solar Angel. Apparently, on the Moon Chain it was possible for the Soul to materialize or appear directly and quite distinct from the person in question. This does seem counter-intuitive, I will grant you that much. But it isn't all that difficult to imagine when we accept the Masters. The Master, for example, knows us *as a Soul* and as the being which reincarnates ... and we are told that "The Soul and the Master are ONE." It is also true that to address any of the Masters individually is also to address them all," for that is the very nature of Group Consciousness.

The Soul is group conscious - the personality is only learning. Until we have built the individual BRIDGE in our own awareness to the Soul [and Spiritual Triad] ... we are still dependent on the Soul for our connection to the Monad. Yes, there are TWO different Monads in question, and so we might also say that there are two souls. But it is helpful to realize that our own Soul is like the Christ Child, or infant. The metaphor holds good. The Christ differed, only in that He had attained well before any of the rest of us has ... the FIRST, in fact, of our own Humanity to do so. The Buddha was from the Moon Chain, hence is not `our own' ...

The Soul does not become `a copy of' the Agnishvatta, but I have sometimes wondered if this isn't a useful simplification. There are definitely two distinct individualities. And once the Agnishvatta has done its work, once the 4th Initiation is taken, it is free for higher work altogether ... and we do incarnate the Monad directly.

The life thread of which you speak is the sutratma. It is called `the silver cord' in New Age teachings, for reasons that are apparent to anyone who has seen it. This cord permanently binds us or tethers us to the physical body, being attached to [or within] the heart ... severed only at the moment of death. Yes, the sutratma exists for us all, Masters included. The difference is, the Master Who is NOT in incarnation, does not project the sutratma to the mental, astral or physical planes. He has no permanent atoms for those levels of existence, as he has parted with them, along with the Causal body. All that remains is his ability - if he is a Nirmanakaya - to CREATE by will [Kriyashakti] a projection. He may take incarnation, but this is voluntary and there is no personal karma left in his case whatsoever.

The CONSCIOUSNESS Thread, on the other hand ... the Rainbow Bridge or Antas Karana [also Antahkarana] ... is constructed by the Soul AND the personality together, becoming completed only after the 3rd Initiation. The expansion of the Heart and Throat Chakras that you mentioned definitely involve a corresponding widening of the bridge (so to speak) ... resulting in greater awareness of, and in, the Casual vehicle. A man might still take a high initiation, and yes, the Sutratma (or thread soul) remains anchored within his heart, yet for all practical intent the two threads are one, both having been effectively `built.' The work we must do is to build the bridge BACK. God, as we well know, has done the first half of it for us ... and the Sutratma, this "finest thread of Fohat," is the evidence.

So the study is an abstruse one. It will SEEM that we have "two souls" - even when we look to the Higher Mental, Buddhic and Atmic planes. In reality, this is technically so, but given the NATURE of the Soul on these levels, we MUST understand their relationship ... and realize that it is better to simply speak of the ONE Soul, even the SPIRITUAL SOUL of Humanity as a whole [on Buddhic levels, the WORLD Soul]. This is completely different than a question of whether a given jiva is in incarnation or not, and the question of what's going on with the sutratma.

Hope that helps!

 

[Lunitik]

Based on your statements, your philosophy is dualistic. For me, this means it does not go to the absolute heights of reality. For Buddha, there are beings on higher plains and even Gods on higher plains still, but these too are subject to illusion, birth and death. Ultimately, they remain separate due to desire, and thus are really not different from us - I think the Masters show such a similarity in that they are in a hierarchy, apparently politics remain even on that plane. I do not understand why anyone would wish to remain distinct, it just means they haven't overcome the fear of death still.

 

[Sam Albion]

... there isn't any real proof that Blavatsky hung around with gurus and wise old sages. In fact, it is reputed she made the whole thing up, and all of the Mahatma letters were written by herself and the famous alleged peadophile Leadbetter....

 

[taijasi]

... there isn't any real proof that Blavatsky hung around with gurus and wise old sages. In fact, it is reputed she made the whole thing up, and all of the Mahatma letters were written by herself and the famous alleged peadophile Leadbetter....

It does depend on what you consider proof, now doesn't it. I would disagree with all of your statements, as apparently do plenty of others.

Personally, I have long ago found all the proof I need. This doesn't mean my faith, or knowledge is perfect. But you see, it doesn't need to be. Because of mine, I can help you with yours. I do sense, feel and hope to react positively to that spirit around here. Might not mean I EVER agree with you (or vice versa). And do I need to? Of course not. Not when I am content with [what others often term] my own faith, belief system, gestalt, etc.

Wager me (on these doubts of yours, or devil's advocate position) and I will win. That is what matters.

Btw, this is not what we call blind faith, or delusion. It is, simply [or at least includes, and rests firmly enough upon] the certain calm that comes from ... CLAP! [here, *you* must fill in the blank, this is just what comes to me]

In Christianity we would be speaking about the Rock. And so am I.

My interpretation has NOTHING to do with one man in history (as an individual, unique person, first Pope, yadda). Rather, it has to do with his FAITH. Or more to the point, the OBJECT of it. And again, the significance of that, to or for me, differs greatly from what the average Christian (certainly Catholic) will say. You see?

In short, those grooves in which the needle is stuck (at least imho), while helpful for some are limiting - incredibly incapacitating - for others. It does not mean the example is useless. My Goodness, what did I just say about St. Peter, and his FAITH?

What foolishness, that the entire point of this man's faith has been overlooked ... such that now we have come to remember him for just the opposite. The Wise will recall WHY he was first chosen by the Lord, and IF they know their Bible they will remember, or ponder the relationship that grew between this Apostle and Christ Jesus. They will note his closeness to Christ and they will understand that it was for THIS relationship, this FAITH and recognition that Christ said, "On THIS ROCK I shall build my Church."

Oh yes, there are also several deeper, esoteric and symbolic meanings, etc. Yet if the Christian cannot feel, find and KNOW this faith ... then St. Peter may as well never have walked the Earth, nor Christ, nor you nor I.

 

[Sam Albion]

Indeed, it does depend on what you consider to be proof, doesn't it?

I like facts best.

Here's a few, for your perusal. None of which you can deny, Andrew, although you will no doubt try.

It's a fact that Blavatsky struggled with simple Vedic terms and misspelt the sanskrit that accompanies them. That fact leads me to consider that her Mahatmas were either ignoramuses or imaginary friends.

It's a fact that Leadbetter slept with young boys and pretended it made him holy.

It is a fact that Krsnamurti's dad appealed to the Madras High Court, saying "I want my children to be returned me. They are being homosexually abused by Leadbeater." (source: Osho, "Hyakujo : The Everest of Zen, with Basho's Haiku's").

It is also a fact that Nityananda, Krsnamurti's brother, died in the care of Annie Besant and Charles Leadbetter, due to the poor treatment he received from these so called great, holy beings, who starved him and deprived him of sleep.

It's a fact that withholding sleep and controlling people's dietary intake and depriving them of protein and forcing them to perform lots of meditation and ritual practise are common brainwashing tactics.

It is also a fact that Annie Besant, contrary to the ruling of that same court in Madras who said the boys should go back to their father, spirited them away to England instead.

It is also a fact that Alice Bailey describes Jews as monkeys and inferior beings and denies they are an individual race.

Here, then, are lots of facts. Lots of facts that agree with your statement that your faith is not perfect.

And yet, your response to my post, as per usual, is partonising and full of high sounding fluff. "Nobody here agrees with you, Sam Albion". "Sam Albion, you cannot feel the spirit around here". "Sam Albion, I have faith, and you do not". "Don't badmouth my faith, Sam Albion, because it harms/incapacitates others". "Sam Albion, you cannot possibly understand the deeper esoteric meanings within my faith".

Perhaps there is some hidden, esoteric meaning behind kidnapping, child abuse, and jew-hating that I am too ignorant to grasp?

You can't help me with my faith, Andrew, but maybe I can help you with yours.

I suggest you put all your theosophy tracts out in your yard, grab a nice big box of matches, and a small amount of petrol, and do what needs to be done.

"Wager me, and I will win", you say.

Are you sure about that?

Denying facts doesn't make them go away.

Still feel like a winner, kiddo?