radarmark
Quaker-in-the-Making
Interesting... where can one go to validate these "facts" that fly in the face of what Theosophy teaches? Are they as easily found as the problems of Scientology?
About occultists
- Thread starter taijasi
- Start date
Sam Albion
akaFrancisKing:ViveLeRoi!
read the books. do some internet searches. it's all out there.
taijasi
Gnōthi seauton
You just crucified your precious Christ, btw. Feel better now to see that I can do it too? 
Show us all your great and worldly Wisdom, Francis. Tell us all about how it actually is?
Sound familiar?
Show us all your great and worldly Wisdom, Francis. Tell us all about how it actually is?
Sound familiar?
taijasi
Gnōthi seauton
Isn't it a pity
Now, isn't it a shame
How we break each other's hearts
And cause each other pain
How we take each other's love
Without thinking anymore
Forgetting to give back
Isn't it a pity
Some things take so long
But how do I explain
When not too many people
Can see we're all the same
And because of all their tears
Their eyes can't hope to see
The beauty that surrounds them
Isn't it a pity
Isn't it a pity
Isn't is a shame
How we break each other's hearts
And cause each other pain
How we take each other's love
Without thinking anymore
Forgetting to give back
Isn't it a pity
Forgetting to give back
Isn't it a pity
Forgetting to give back
Now, isn't it a pity
What a pity
What a pity, pity, pity
What a pity
What a pity, pity, pity
Now, isn't it a shame
How we break each other's hearts
And cause each other pain
How we take each other's love
Without thinking anymore
Forgetting to give back
Isn't it a pity
Some things take so long
But how do I explain
When not too many people
Can see we're all the same
And because of all their tears
Their eyes can't hope to see
The beauty that surrounds them
Isn't it a pity
Isn't it a pity
Isn't is a shame
How we break each other's hearts
And cause each other pain
How we take each other's love
Without thinking anymore
Forgetting to give back
Isn't it a pity
Forgetting to give back
Isn't it a pity
Forgetting to give back
Now, isn't it a pity
What a pity
What a pity, pity, pity
What a pity
What a pity, pity, pity
radarmark
Quaker-in-the-Making
I was going to stop researching when I could find no original citations about these "facts" (so far I believe them about as much I believe the Truthers and Birthers). However, given AndrewX's response, I shall continue (I always assume the lady doth protestesth too much when she does). Thanks Sam, will let you know.
taijasi
Gnōthi seauton
radarmark, which "facts" is it again that you are continuing to research?
radarmark
Quaker-in-the-Making
The "facts" Sam Albion claims. So far a lot of web hits, but no sources. Hence I would make the chances for his "facts" being facts 20 or 30 to 1.
seattlegal
Mercuræn Buddhist
taijasi
Gnōthi seauton
The fact is, Francis [aka Sam Albion] is here to stir and incur hatred. She is both practiced at her art, as well as devious and CUNning. I certainly give her that.
She made it to my ignore list, however ... and I would advise you to take anything she posts - on this thread, at least - with about 2 kg of salt.
Francis, in short, is a TROLL.
She is also of Roman Catholic alignment and background, throwing stones from within her glass house ... on a matter of someone's individual karma [C.W. Leadbeater - spell it correctly]. Really now. A Catholic spouting off about child molestation? Pointing her finger at Theosophists on the matter of pedophilia?
Yeahhhh. Riiiiiiight.
What she *doesn't* know about the brothers Krishnamurti is say - 95% of the story. So, in true keeping with the SPIRIT OF HATRED with which she composed her offensive, attacking post ... we have the ultimate essence of KNOW-IT-ALL manifested here, when in fact, the party in question knows next to NOTHING on the matter she has tried to stir [up].
Well, she is free to speculate, as are we all. And, within reason, I am also free to point out the above FACTS.
So when you decide to set off for your research - confirming or disproving what the jaded MONSTER here has dragged out of the abyss - again, keep a few kilos of salt handy.
The facts on Nityananda are far from what our new Troll has suggested. She has no understanding or insight into WHY Nityananda had to die, as only an Initiate or Adept could understand the karma involved. Fortunately, we DO have ON RECORD statements from A MAHATMA regarding just this matter ... including discussion of Krishnaji's request to spare the life of his brother.
Such could not be done, owing to the KARMA of the individual in question ... and not for the B.S. reasons that our TROLL has produced. As I say, the discussion is there - "all over the internet" - but it takes someone of REAL INTELLIGENCE and a devotion to TRUTH to find it, an earnest seeker and not simply a know-it-all who actually knows very little from direct experience but likes to parade her book-learning about ... as if this is what gets people into her imaginary heaven.
No, I'm afraid Francis here had ONE AIM when she posted her invective the other day. She was after ONE THING ... and although I'm sure she has already garnered at least part of the smug self-satisfaction that she was after, I will do MY best at this point to deny her the remainder.
I have NO EARTHLY IDEA what she posts, or will post next, and I DON'T CARE. An ignore list exists for a purpose, and Francis has earned the #1 spot on mine!
Once upon a time I suppose it was possible for her to dialogue with people without attacking them, their Faith and beliefs ... but if that was the case, Francis has forgotten all about why it might be useful. She has no interest in pleasant discourse, as she has a personal vendetta against all things Theosophical and all persons of Theosophical inclination.
This comes, as I say, from smug self-certainty and self-righteousness, even if she cannot get her "FACTS" straight - even when their very presentation is the ostensible purpose for her post here.
The bottom line?
YES ... if you want to understand something, DO YOUR OWN RESEARCH. But at least GO TO THE SOURCE for the information and explanation.
If you only read in circular fashion, BEGINNING with your flawed, faulty conclusion [which itself, in her case, is based on nothing but hatred, jealousy and lies] ... then how ON EARTH do you expect to ever break free of your ignorance and learn even one iota of the Wisdom on a subject?
HOW can a person gain insight when mired within pure EGO, blinded by such HATRED?
Truth invites IMPARTIAL investigators and investigation. Otherwise, you will not only be disappointed in your search, but as you begin to realize what an ASSHAT you've been wearing ... you will also find, as in her case, that really there wasn't much else aside from an ASSHAT - all along!
Honestly, I think I'd find that pretty embarrassing, so in fact, her little rant and quite pointed attack backfires. Francis would love to make a fool of everyone that doesn't see things just as she does ... and this masks a basic insecurity, besides a good bit of self-loathing and childhood trauma, I suspect ~ although again, as neither Asekha Adept, nor enlightened Initiate, I cannot tell you what form of abuse(s) she suffered, or just where & how her personal karma began to manifest in such a way as to produce this rather unpleasant display currently witnessed. [My own story I know, yes, but will withhold, for the moment.]
The only thing I resent is that she is clever enough, CUNning enough, that she realizes she can access the proverbial chink in the armor and go after others - at precisely their points of weakness ... some of which, at least in some cases, are all too resonant and/or aligned with some of her own.
Now I don't give a rat's rear that or lovely little dear will deny such, and perhaps pretend that her post was anything other than mean-spirited and INTENDED as purely personal. She was, and is, as I say - out for ONE THING. But there are others here who perhaps can see such a broadside coming from a mile away ... as I WELL SHOULD HAVE ...
... and those who have long ago left Francis' poor, petty little understanding behind, ALSO KNOW that the very method of the Guru is sometimes - at a certain point - to specifically ALLOW the Dark Forces to have their way with the disciple or student being tested.
The choice to take the HIGH ROAD, rather than allow penetration of the knife point at the chink in the armor ... is up to EACH PERSON.
In other words, for all that I have said about Francis - true as it may be - how any one of us REACTS or responds to her offensive attacks ... is what really matters.
That being said, she found her way to my ignore list, but not before helping me to realize that yes, this is simply typical ... and this kind of attack, though it's not something I'm used to dealing with except HERE, is just a simple matter of PRACTICE.
Well, practice makes PERFECT, and what I don't master on the 1st round, or the 2nd round, or even the 999th, I will certainly ONE DAY have to master - on the 1000th, or what-have-you.
I have Francis to THANK ... for being such a witch here of late. Without that, I wouldn't be able to head off certain possible confrontations from day to day, which I haven't had to deal with for quite some time.
Again, she's pretty ignorant when it comes to occult matters, including what's going on in the world today [beyond her little confused bubble of self-loathing] ... so she has no idea, apparently, that the Spirit which underlies the happenings of the time shall squash her little displays like a bug. Mine too, if I don't get house in proper order.
But to be clear, and blunt, FRANCIS/Sam Albion wouldn't know the Christ if he sat down next to her on the tube ... or knocked on her door, smiling with outstretched hands and Loving heart.
And that won't change very much ... until FRANCIS does.
Nonetheless, deary dear, THANKS for the challenge. It's already done me wonders. I heartily accept, btw, and in the true Spirit of the time, I will meet you whenever the time between us is RIGHT ... although I also don't mind if you want a few more times around the wheel to see, understand and know that IT IS SO.
After all, that's *your* loss ... and I couldn't care less.
Meanwhile, you're just a nuisance, and the less I have to deal with it, the better.
She made it to my ignore list, however ... and I would advise you to take anything she posts - on this thread, at least - with about 2 kg of salt.
Francis, in short, is a TROLL.
She is also of Roman Catholic alignment and background, throwing stones from within her glass house ... on a matter of someone's individual karma [C.W. Leadbeater - spell it correctly]. Really now. A Catholic spouting off about child molestation? Pointing her finger at Theosophists on the matter of pedophilia?
Yeahhhh. Riiiiiiight.
What she *doesn't* know about the brothers Krishnamurti is say - 95% of the story. So, in true keeping with the SPIRIT OF HATRED with which she composed her offensive, attacking post ... we have the ultimate essence of KNOW-IT-ALL manifested here, when in fact, the party in question knows next to NOTHING on the matter she has tried to stir [up].
Well, she is free to speculate, as are we all. And, within reason, I am also free to point out the above FACTS.
So when you decide to set off for your research - confirming or disproving what the jaded MONSTER here has dragged out of the abyss - again, keep a few kilos of salt handy.
The facts on Nityananda are far from what our new Troll has suggested. She has no understanding or insight into WHY Nityananda had to die, as only an Initiate or Adept could understand the karma involved. Fortunately, we DO have ON RECORD statements from A MAHATMA regarding just this matter ... including discussion of Krishnaji's request to spare the life of his brother.
Such could not be done, owing to the KARMA of the individual in question ... and not for the B.S. reasons that our TROLL has produced. As I say, the discussion is there - "all over the internet" - but it takes someone of REAL INTELLIGENCE and a devotion to TRUTH to find it, an earnest seeker and not simply a know-it-all who actually knows very little from direct experience but likes to parade her book-learning about ... as if this is what gets people into her imaginary heaven.
No, I'm afraid Francis here had ONE AIM when she posted her invective the other day. She was after ONE THING ... and although I'm sure she has already garnered at least part of the smug self-satisfaction that she was after, I will do MY best at this point to deny her the remainder.
I have NO EARTHLY IDEA what she posts, or will post next, and I DON'T CARE. An ignore list exists for a purpose, and Francis has earned the #1 spot on mine!
Once upon a time I suppose it was possible for her to dialogue with people without attacking them, their Faith and beliefs ... but if that was the case, Francis has forgotten all about why it might be useful. She has no interest in pleasant discourse, as she has a personal vendetta against all things Theosophical and all persons of Theosophical inclination.
This comes, as I say, from smug self-certainty and self-righteousness, even if she cannot get her "FACTS" straight - even when their very presentation is the ostensible purpose for her post here.
The bottom line?
YES ... if you want to understand something, DO YOUR OWN RESEARCH. But at least GO TO THE SOURCE for the information and explanation.
If you only read in circular fashion, BEGINNING with your flawed, faulty conclusion [which itself, in her case, is based on nothing but hatred, jealousy and lies] ... then how ON EARTH do you expect to ever break free of your ignorance and learn even one iota of the Wisdom on a subject?
HOW can a person gain insight when mired within pure EGO, blinded by such HATRED?
Truth invites IMPARTIAL investigators and investigation. Otherwise, you will not only be disappointed in your search, but as you begin to realize what an ASSHAT you've been wearing ... you will also find, as in her case, that really there wasn't much else aside from an ASSHAT - all along!
Honestly, I think I'd find that pretty embarrassing, so in fact, her little rant and quite pointed attack backfires. Francis would love to make a fool of everyone that doesn't see things just as she does ... and this masks a basic insecurity, besides a good bit of self-loathing and childhood trauma, I suspect ~ although again, as neither Asekha Adept, nor enlightened Initiate, I cannot tell you what form of abuse(s) she suffered, or just where & how her personal karma began to manifest in such a way as to produce this rather unpleasant display currently witnessed. [My own story I know, yes, but will withhold, for the moment.
]The only thing I resent is that she is clever enough, CUNning enough, that she realizes she can access the proverbial chink in the armor and go after others - at precisely their points of weakness ... some of which, at least in some cases, are all too resonant and/or aligned with some of her own.
Now I don't give a rat's rear that or lovely little dear will deny such, and perhaps pretend that her post was anything other than mean-spirited and INTENDED as purely personal. She was, and is, as I say - out for ONE THING. But there are others here who perhaps can see such a broadside coming from a mile away ... as I WELL SHOULD HAVE ...
... and those who have long ago left Francis' poor, petty little understanding behind, ALSO KNOW that the very method of the Guru is sometimes - at a certain point - to specifically ALLOW the Dark Forces to have their way with the disciple or student being tested.
The choice to take the HIGH ROAD, rather than allow penetration of the knife point at the chink in the armor ... is up to EACH PERSON.
In other words, for all that I have said about Francis - true as it may be - how any one of us REACTS or responds to her offensive attacks ... is what really matters.
That being said, she found her way to my ignore list, but not before helping me to realize that yes, this is simply typical ... and this kind of attack, though it's not something I'm used to dealing with except HERE, is just a simple matter of PRACTICE.
Well, practice makes PERFECT, and what I don't master on the 1st round, or the 2nd round, or even the 999th, I will certainly ONE DAY have to master - on the 1000th, or what-have-you.
I have Francis to THANK ... for being such a witch here of late. Without that, I wouldn't be able to head off certain possible confrontations from day to day, which I haven't had to deal with for quite some time.
Again, she's pretty ignorant when it comes to occult matters, including what's going on in the world today [beyond her little confused bubble of self-loathing] ... so she has no idea, apparently, that the Spirit which underlies the happenings of the time shall squash her little displays like a bug. Mine too, if I don't get house in proper order.
But to be clear, and blunt, FRANCIS/Sam Albion wouldn't know the Christ if he sat down next to her on the tube ... or knocked on her door, smiling with outstretched hands and Loving heart.
And that won't change very much ... until FRANCIS does.
Nonetheless, deary dear, THANKS for the challenge. It's already done me wonders. I heartily accept, btw, and in the true Spirit of the time, I will meet you whenever the time between us is RIGHT ... although I also don't mind if you want a few more times around the wheel to see, understand and know that IT IS SO.
After all, that's *your* loss ... and I couldn't care less.
Meanwhile, you're just a nuisance, and the less I have to deal with it, the better.
taijasi
Gnōthi seauton
Francis has done exactly what enemies of the Truth often do. She has chosen bits and pieces, out of context - or embellished and polished up quite nicely by those who are, likewise, representatives straight outta the Adversary's camp.
She doesn't actually understand how well she represents the latter, doing his work FOR him.
Now on the specific matters she mentions, yes, C.W. Leadbeater probably WAS a pedophile (and her understanding of this, karmically, comes from WHERE?) ...
... while the matter with Krishnamurti is so misunderstood, that to the best of my knowledge, I really AM the only person on the site who has a bit of direct insight into it, and can tell you what really went on - as far as the `takeaway' goes.
Francis is just doing her best to stir up trouble, and while I quite understand the importance of devil's advocate as a philosophical position and opportunity for discourse, I reject the mean-spirited nature of the personal attack and VENDETTA which Francis has launched and is attempting to spearhead.
Besides, she wouldn't know the Spear of Longinus anyway ... IF she saw it, or if it came to her in a dream. And again, while SHE has no clue what I'm talking about ... I don't expect her to. She is, as I say, just a TROLL.
Honestly though, and forgive me for saying so, she pisses me off ... because when I see crap like [her post], I just want to groan.
Yes, I have said plenty an unkind word or two about Roman Catholicism in the past, but Francis doesn't have any notion what she is messing with karmically ... in this case.
All she knows - or believes, feels - is that she's stirring up trouble. And she has pointed it directly at ME.
FRANKLY, if you want to let the matter resolve itself, just ignore her for awhile. I cannot, and will not respond to her jabs on this thread beyond what I've already said ... as anything further on the matter is just fuel for her little fire.
She disappoints me, as I don't remember her being so - umm - unpleasant, before. Someone has pissed in her corn flakes, and there's really not much I can do about that.
taijasi
Gnōthi seauton
On a brighter note ... the Easter season approaches, this being the 1st Full Moon of the new year. This means a great deal to every esotericist I know, whether of Theosophical background and affiliation or not.
It's a strange and unusual occasion, weather-wise, but I'm paying attention to the correspondence with lunar cycles. We BEGAN the new year just a week or so ago [Vernal Equinox] ... and the Full Moon coincides with Good Friday quite nicely.
The esoteric keynote for Aries, btw, is: "I come forth and from the plane of mind I rule."
Although our world may not come to the end that some are looking for, or anxious about, REM is pretty much spot on: The world as we know it is definitely in major transition.
Krishnamurti played an important role in helping this to occur, as far back as a full century ago ... reaching a culmination at the quarter century mark of 1925 and immediately thereafter. This should afford some insight into why it is that Alice Bailey predicted the Reappearance of the Christ "after 2025" ... although we also know that such a date is not chiseled into stone.
One can learn much by studying the Centennial Cycles of Hierarchical activity, beginning with about 1625 AD in the modern era, if I recall correctly. As pointed out, it's all out there on the Internet ... as well as in print, if one chooses to do the research. The recent year 2000 and 1975 also figured prominently, as one can find explained in this same context.
Yes, these are SOME of the studies and subjects that occultists focus on, while those who are keeping their feet ON the Path are quite careful to walk the Walk ... and not just talk the talk.
Discussion forums are great; it would be better to be practicing the Dharma ...
Namaskar, Namaskar
Who- and where-ever you are
It's a strange and unusual occasion, weather-wise, but I'm paying attention to the correspondence with lunar cycles. We BEGAN the new year just a week or so ago [Vernal Equinox] ... and the Full Moon coincides with Good Friday quite nicely.
The esoteric keynote for Aries, btw, is: "I come forth and from the plane of mind I rule."
Although our world may not come to the end that some are looking for, or anxious about, REM is pretty much spot on: The world as we know it is definitely in major transition.
Krishnamurti played an important role in helping this to occur, as far back as a full century ago ... reaching a culmination at the quarter century mark of 1925 and immediately thereafter. This should afford some insight into why it is that Alice Bailey predicted the Reappearance of the Christ "after 2025" ... although we also know that such a date is not chiseled into stone.
One can learn much by studying the Centennial Cycles of Hierarchical activity, beginning with about 1625 AD in the modern era, if I recall correctly. As pointed out, it's all out there on the Internet ... as well as in print, if one chooses to do the research. The recent year 2000 and 1975 also figured prominently, as one can find explained in this same context.
Yes, these are SOME of the studies and subjects that occultists focus on, while those who are keeping their feet ON the Path are quite careful to walk the Walk ... and not just talk the talk.
Discussion forums are great; it would be better to be practicing the Dharma ...
Namaskar, Namaskar
Who- and where-ever you are
radarmark
Quaker-in-the-Making
As my contribution (to Francis... thanks SG, for making me know it was a she). I found one good reference with many subsequent academic mentions of Coleman (from 1895) with a list of works "not properly credited" by Blavatsky. Does this mean she lifted the text of Isis and Doctrine? Not really (IMHO). I (like she was) am a voracious reader, and when treading togther my arguments find myself inadvertantly quoting... and of course I am intentionally adding to memes ("stealing ideas").
Seems like a pretty shaky criticism (am speaking of Coleman). Other than that there is a lot of bad press and innumendo. Sorry Francis, could not find the books and articles you said were so easy to find. What I found was a lot of "Truther" or "Birther" type materisl (which I consider totally bogus... yep, absolutely wrong (you will not hear me say that a lot)) I can give no credence to, especially that (for what it is worth) posted on almost Levfevre-conservative Catholic sites.
That much being said, I am not endorsing Theosophy (my views being close in many, many ways). But then, remember, my big thing is inclusiveness, not exclusiveness. If Krishnamurti and Gurdieff borrowed from Theosophy, so did Aurobindo and Parmahansaji and Guenon and Jung and Schuon... and really not more than Blavatsky did (assuming she wrote the books).
Seems like a pretty shaky criticism (am speaking of Coleman). Other than that there is a lot of bad press and innumendo. Sorry Francis, could not find the books and articles you said were so easy to find. What I found was a lot of "Truther" or "Birther" type materisl (which I consider totally bogus... yep, absolutely wrong (you will not hear me say that a lot)) I can give no credence to, especially that (for what it is worth) posted on almost Levfevre-conservative Catholic sites.
That much being said, I am not endorsing Theosophy (my views being close in many, many ways). But then, remember, my big thing is inclusiveness, not exclusiveness. If Krishnamurti and Gurdieff borrowed from Theosophy, so did Aurobindo and Parmahansaji and Guenon and Jung and Schuon... and really not more than Blavatsky did (assuming she wrote the books).
taijasi
Gnōthi seauton
Radarmark, I recommend visiting online the Collected Writings of HPB. She was certainly a proliferate author, although English was not her native tongue. She was a polyglot, and demonstrated an advanced - CLEARLY proficient - mastery of English, despite learning it later in life.
HPB spoke Ukrainian growing up, maybe Russian. She learned French, some Italian, probably some Asian tongues ... and also became familiar with Tibetan and several Indian dialects after visiting India and Tibet.
HPB did not actually author The Secret Doctrine, at least not singlehandedly. Henry Steel Olcott, co-Founder of The Theosophical Society, helped her organize much of it. Also, large portions were dictated to her by the Tibetan Master, as well as the Masters KH and M, but also Masters R, Serapis, Hilarion and Agastya [Narayan, Whom she called `the Old Gentleman' - Master Jupiter, the Eldest of the Masters].
While in Tibet, I suspect she also met the Bodhisattva, Maitreya [the Christ, or Messiah] ... although I don't recall specific instances. She may also have met Master Jesus at some point, et al.
The authorship of the SD remains a mystery for many, but HPB herself tells us how it was authored, there being several methods which were employed. Later, the Tibetan Master wrote a piece of similar nature regarding the authorship of the books published with Alice Bailey's name attached.
Anyway, one who has read the 5 or 6 books authored by Alice herself cannot pretend that they have the same vibration, the same authority or tone, as those attributed to the Tibetan Master DK ... who HPB met twice in her travels in Tibet [once when DK was a youth, once later on].
Likewise, if you study the SD and Isis you will find that HPB speaks about subjects which she cannot possibly have understood or had the type of insight into ... which she provides. Isis needed to be rewritten "for the sake of family honor," as one Mahatma put it. This was perhaps also the case with the SD, as it rambles and takes dozens of pages to return to or make an original point, with so much tangential or parallel information in between. No Theosophist that I know believes it to be straight dictation from the Masters, word for word. This is not how they work, anyway.
The exception in the SD is where the STANZAS of Dzyan are translated, but if you read up on where these come from, and understand that they are 4th dimensional and beyond (rather than simply in print somewhere already, in ANY language) ... you will understand. Read what HPB herself, et al, have to say about SENZAR.
If you want to understand Theosophy, STUDY THEOSOPHICAL WRITINGS ... and perhaps the words OF THE AUTHORS THEMSELVES regarding HOW the various volumes were written, produced, dictated, etc.
I think it will prove most insightful.
The less attention paid to Francis and her attempts to pick a fight ... the better.
Namaskar
HPB spoke Ukrainian growing up, maybe Russian. She learned French, some Italian, probably some Asian tongues ... and also became familiar with Tibetan and several Indian dialects after visiting India and Tibet.
HPB did not actually author The Secret Doctrine, at least not singlehandedly. Henry Steel Olcott, co-Founder of The Theosophical Society, helped her organize much of it. Also, large portions were dictated to her by the Tibetan Master, as well as the Masters KH and M, but also Masters R, Serapis, Hilarion and Agastya [Narayan, Whom she called `the Old Gentleman' - Master Jupiter, the Eldest of the Masters].
While in Tibet, I suspect she also met the Bodhisattva, Maitreya [the Christ, or Messiah] ... although I don't recall specific instances. She may also have met Master Jesus at some point, et al.
The authorship of the SD remains a mystery for many, but HPB herself tells us how it was authored, there being several methods which were employed. Later, the Tibetan Master wrote a piece of similar nature regarding the authorship of the books published with Alice Bailey's name attached.
Anyway, one who has read the 5 or 6 books authored by Alice herself cannot pretend that they have the same vibration, the same authority or tone, as those attributed to the Tibetan Master DK ... who HPB met twice in her travels in Tibet [once when DK was a youth, once later on].
Likewise, if you study the SD and Isis you will find that HPB speaks about subjects which she cannot possibly have understood or had the type of insight into ... which she provides. Isis needed to be rewritten "for the sake of family honor," as one Mahatma put it. This was perhaps also the case with the SD, as it rambles and takes dozens of pages to return to or make an original point, with so much tangential or parallel information in between. No Theosophist that I know believes it to be straight dictation from the Masters, word for word. This is not how they work, anyway.
The exception in the SD is where the STANZAS of Dzyan are translated, but if you read up on where these come from, and understand that they are 4th dimensional and beyond (rather than simply in print somewhere already, in ANY language) ... you will understand. Read what HPB herself, et al, have to say about SENZAR.
If you want to understand Theosophy, STUDY THEOSOPHICAL WRITINGS ... and perhaps the words OF THE AUTHORS THEMSELVES regarding HOW the various volumes were written, produced, dictated, etc.
I think it will prove most insightful.
The less attention paid to Francis and her attempts to pick a fight ... the better.
Namaskar
Sam Albion
akaFrancisKing:ViveLeRoi!
I will not bother to try to address Andrew -- he's got his knickers in a twist and he's got me on ignore, or so he says... (but I bet the drama-queen he is, he'll jump in with more pithy put-downs...)
As Radarmark put it -- methinks the lady doth protest too much...
To try to answer what you say, Radarmark...
IMHO, you don't need to check for academic mentions of Blavatsky to prove/disprove she "lifted" the texts of Isis and Doctrine -- you only have to read those books for yourself alongside the texts of Hinduism and Buddhism.
She wasn't a buddhist, or a christian, or a hindu. She mixed them all together and pretended this was something new. She's not the first, and she won't be the last.
That's not the point. You don't need "academics" to confirm or disprove a statement such as "Blavatsky is the queen of borrowed light". it's a fact. It's not a right or wrong thing -- lots of "guru" types "borrow light" from other sources... it's how it is. It is, a fact. Much as checking the Theosophists other texts will tell you that -- theosophists hate jews and refer to them as Monkeys... also a fact. See Alice Bailey's book "esoteric psychology", and delightful chapters entitled "the problem with jews"... if I consult my bookshelves, I can even give you a page number...
It is a fact that Leadbetter "stepped down" from the Theosophical society... if you want actual, concrete facts, for this fact, then a simple search of Wikipedia for Mr Leadbetter will tell you that there was made "accusations he had been engaging in mutual masturbation with teenage boys in his care".
Of course, with Wiki, they are merely accusations...
However... if you go to http://www.gay-art-history.org/gay-history/victorians/charles-leadbeater.htm
and
http://www.parascience.org/images/The_CHARLES_WEBSTER_LEADBEATER_affair_part_1.pdf
and read
Charles Webster Leadbeatter, a biological study by Gregory John Tillett, Ist Edition, University of Sydney, Department of Religious Studies, March 1986...
yes, it's old, but chapter 15: "Conflict over Krshnamurti", and chapter 10 "Accusations of Immorality" (and their references to actual Thesophical Society transcripts)
you will find adequate references to support my wild assertions.
You will see, reading all these spurious, impure references given by me that it is fact that:
...a woman, Mrs Helen Dennis, an occultist herself, complained about Leadbetter, and she said that her son, who had been really inspired by Leadbeater, suddenly changed his tune and became reluctant to spend time with Leadbetter after they'd been on a weekend away together...
...When his Mum asked why, he eventually told her that Leadbetter encouraged him to masturbate. Leadbeater was in charge of lots of boys, he ran a school. Mrs Dennis thought his conduct improper.
Leadbetter himself never denied this. Theosophical society transcripts of their "hearings" state that Leadbeater said he encouraged boys to masturbate because having all those sex hormones running wild took you away from being spiritual (I'm paraphasing, but, this is more or less what he said at the time, when questioned about it).
In these same spurious sources of mine, you will find a link to a letter that Leadbetter sent to this same young man whose mother complained. The letter was written in code. And when the letter was translated it said... more or less... "I am glad you're playing with yourself. You should rub it harder, sweet darling".
Again, Leadbetter and the theosophists never denied this happenned. Instead, they said the letter was forged by "occult forces" who wanted to destroy theosophy.
If you do not believe these sources, or that this controversy surrounding theosophists isn't real and the result of some ignorant troll spouting bile, look at what a Theosophical society astrologer says --
"It was written in the stars" -- why the need to refute these allegations in this manner... ?
http://aura.free.fr/xxx/27ken3.html
So... to answer the rest -- I do not know what Birthers or Truthers are -- they sound like end-time type evangelists, to me. Nor do I know what Levfevre-conservative Catholic sites are. Again, I hazard a guess you're referring to some kind of... right-wing hardcore stuff.
Not my bag, I'm afraid. I was baptised a Catholic, as a child, Andrew is right in that regard, but since then I've been... a devotee of Krsna, a white witch, a Gnostic, a Satanist, a Rosicrucian, a Crowleyite, and a Kabbalist. Amongst other things. Now, I refer to myself as a buddhist, with a small B, and I have done for the past... mmm... 15 years? Or thereabouts...
I also did a stint with the theosophists. Long time ago. The flowery stuff doesn't do it for me, and I didn't have enough cash to become one of the chosen ones... but I digress...
You say, Radarmark, that you're "...not endorsing Theosophy", but for you not to be aware of the whole "charles leadbetter affair", and his subsequent withdrawal from the TS suggests to me that you're not in a position to endorse or reject it... and that's not me being smart, and putting you down -- that's just how it is.
You say-- "...If Krishnamurti... borrowed from Theosophy..."... Do you not know what happenned to Krsnamurti?
Krsnamurti was a kid when he met up with the theosophists, and they deliberately brainwashed him to become the "new messiah". There wasn't just him -- they picked four kids, one of which they reckoned would do. Krsnamurti did not borrow; he was forcefed.
The Theosophical enthusings of the likes of Beasant and Leadbetter state that Krsnamurti was a dunce. Dumb. They thought he was weak, and they didn't think he was the one, but when his older brother died, he had to step up to the plate. Which he did.
When he eventually realised what he was, and how he'd been played, he abandoned and disbanded the Society of Light, which the Theosophical Society had started, for their Maitreya, a.k.a Krsnamurti. When he left, his wife wrote books about how wierd he was and how they hadn't had sex for years(herself a committed Theosophist), and the Society spread a few rumours about Krsnamurti's extra-marital affair with his wife's mother, and bingo, the Theosophists metaphorically crucified their own Messiah.
The Theosophists have a new Messiah now. He's called Maitreya. They're fighting a losing battle with this new Messiah -- after all, times have changed, and people are no longer so easily swayed at the sight of an Indian in a turban now that Curry Houses are on every British High street, but persist they will, to rehash the same tired old not-so-very-secret-doctrine, with Benjamin Cream, a more western looking guru who also, like Mme Blavatsy, hears the voices of the secret masters in his head...
benjamin cream was alice baileys eager devotee -- you know, alice bailey, the jew-hater..?
nazi's, child molesters, kidnappers, slanderers... both Catholicism and the Theosophical society have their fair share. this is also a fact.
none of which andrew, in his infinite wisdom, can deny, nor even tries to deny...
so much for this lil internet troll stirring up trouble with baseless allegations...
As Radarmark put it -- methinks the lady doth protest too much...
To try to answer what you say, Radarmark...
IMHO, you don't need to check for academic mentions of Blavatsky to prove/disprove she "lifted" the texts of Isis and Doctrine -- you only have to read those books for yourself alongside the texts of Hinduism and Buddhism.
She wasn't a buddhist, or a christian, or a hindu. She mixed them all together and pretended this was something new. She's not the first, and she won't be the last.
That's not the point. You don't need "academics" to confirm or disprove a statement such as "Blavatsky is the queen of borrowed light". it's a fact. It's not a right or wrong thing -- lots of "guru" types "borrow light" from other sources... it's how it is. It is, a fact. Much as checking the Theosophists other texts will tell you that -- theosophists hate jews and refer to them as Monkeys... also a fact. See Alice Bailey's book "esoteric psychology", and delightful chapters entitled "the problem with jews"... if I consult my bookshelves, I can even give you a page number...
It is a fact that Leadbetter "stepped down" from the Theosophical society... if you want actual, concrete facts, for this fact, then a simple search of Wikipedia for Mr Leadbetter will tell you that there was made "accusations he had been engaging in mutual masturbation with teenage boys in his care".
Of course, with Wiki, they are merely accusations...
However... if you go to http://www.gay-art-history.org/gay-history/victorians/charles-leadbeater.htm
and
http://www.parascience.org/images/The_CHARLES_WEBSTER_LEADBEATER_affair_part_1.pdf
and read
Charles Webster Leadbeatter, a biological study by Gregory John Tillett, Ist Edition, University of Sydney, Department of Religious Studies, March 1986...
yes, it's old, but chapter 15: "Conflict over Krshnamurti", and chapter 10 "Accusations of Immorality" (and their references to actual Thesophical Society transcripts)
you will find adequate references to support my wild assertions.
You will see, reading all these spurious, impure references given by me that it is fact that:
...a woman, Mrs Helen Dennis, an occultist herself, complained about Leadbetter, and she said that her son, who had been really inspired by Leadbeater, suddenly changed his tune and became reluctant to spend time with Leadbetter after they'd been on a weekend away together...
...When his Mum asked why, he eventually told her that Leadbetter encouraged him to masturbate. Leadbeater was in charge of lots of boys, he ran a school. Mrs Dennis thought his conduct improper.
Leadbetter himself never denied this. Theosophical society transcripts of their "hearings" state that Leadbeater said he encouraged boys to masturbate because having all those sex hormones running wild took you away from being spiritual (I'm paraphasing, but, this is more or less what he said at the time, when questioned about it).
In these same spurious sources of mine, you will find a link to a letter that Leadbetter sent to this same young man whose mother complained. The letter was written in code. And when the letter was translated it said... more or less... "I am glad you're playing with yourself. You should rub it harder, sweet darling".
Again, Leadbetter and the theosophists never denied this happenned. Instead, they said the letter was forged by "occult forces" who wanted to destroy theosophy.
If you do not believe these sources, or that this controversy surrounding theosophists isn't real and the result of some ignorant troll spouting bile, look at what a Theosophical society astrologer says --
"It was written in the stars" -- why the need to refute these allegations in this manner... ?
http://aura.free.fr/xxx/27ken3.html
So... to answer the rest -- I do not know what Birthers or Truthers are -- they sound like end-time type evangelists, to me. Nor do I know what Levfevre-conservative Catholic sites are. Again, I hazard a guess you're referring to some kind of... right-wing hardcore stuff.
Not my bag, I'm afraid. I was baptised a Catholic, as a child, Andrew is right in that regard, but since then I've been... a devotee of Krsna, a white witch, a Gnostic, a Satanist, a Rosicrucian, a Crowleyite, and a Kabbalist. Amongst other things. Now, I refer to myself as a buddhist, with a small B, and I have done for the past... mmm... 15 years? Or thereabouts...
I also did a stint with the theosophists. Long time ago. The flowery stuff doesn't do it for me, and I didn't have enough cash to become one of the chosen ones... but I digress...
You say, Radarmark, that you're "...not endorsing Theosophy", but for you not to be aware of the whole "charles leadbetter affair", and his subsequent withdrawal from the TS suggests to me that you're not in a position to endorse or reject it... and that's not me being smart, and putting you down -- that's just how it is.
You say-- "...If Krishnamurti... borrowed from Theosophy..."... Do you not know what happenned to Krsnamurti?
Krsnamurti was a kid when he met up with the theosophists, and they deliberately brainwashed him to become the "new messiah". There wasn't just him -- they picked four kids, one of which they reckoned would do. Krsnamurti did not borrow; he was forcefed.
The Theosophical enthusings of the likes of Beasant and Leadbetter state that Krsnamurti was a dunce. Dumb. They thought he was weak, and they didn't think he was the one, but when his older brother died, he had to step up to the plate. Which he did.
When he eventually realised what he was, and how he'd been played, he abandoned and disbanded the Society of Light, which the Theosophical Society had started, for their Maitreya, a.k.a Krsnamurti. When he left, his wife wrote books about how wierd he was and how they hadn't had sex for years(herself a committed Theosophist), and the Society spread a few rumours about Krsnamurti's extra-marital affair with his wife's mother, and bingo, the Theosophists metaphorically crucified their own Messiah.
The Theosophists have a new Messiah now. He's called Maitreya. They're fighting a losing battle with this new Messiah -- after all, times have changed, and people are no longer so easily swayed at the sight of an Indian in a turban now that Curry Houses are on every British High street, but persist they will, to rehash the same tired old not-so-very-secret-doctrine, with Benjamin Cream, a more western looking guru who also, like Mme Blavatsy, hears the voices of the secret masters in his head...
benjamin cream was alice baileys eager devotee -- you know, alice bailey, the jew-hater..?
nazi's, child molesters, kidnappers, slanderers... both Catholicism and the Theosophical society have their fair share. this is also a fact.
none of which andrew, in his infinite wisdom, can deny, nor even tries to deny...
so much for this lil internet troll stirring up trouble with baseless allegations...
Sam Albion
akaFrancisKing:ViveLeRoi!
You just crucified your precious Christ, btw. Feel better now to see that I can do it too?
Show us all your great and worldly Wisdom, Francis. Tell us all about how it actually is?
Sound familiar?
...what, andrew, like your theosophy crucified Krsnamurti? mm...
I have lots of great and worldy wisdom, Andrew. are such taunts the best you can do?
Sam Albion
akaFrancisKing:ViveLeRoi!
Sam Albion
akaFrancisKing:ViveLeRoi!
The fact is, Francis [aka Sam Albion] is here to stir and incur hatred.
--I'm not here for that. But, that's what people in cults usually say when they are contradicted.
"She is both practiced at her art, as well as devious and CUNning. I certainly give her that.
--devious, AND cunning. Thanks. That's quite a... compliment. Oh, hang on. Are you saying that because I'm a woman? Sheesh.
"She made it to my ignore list, however ... and I would advise you to take anything she posts - on this thread, at least - with about 2 kg of salt"
--but Andrew only says this because he thinks he is the pinnacle of all wisdom, and he takes it personally when someone knocks his guru, HPB, even though she's dead.
"Francis, in short, is a TROLL"
--mmm. A troll. One of those ugly things that sits under bridges demanding tolls? K, I can work with that...
"She is also of Roman Catholic alignment and background, throwing stones from within her glass house ... on a matter of someone's individual karma [C.W. Leadbeater - spell it correctly]. Really now. A Catholic spouting off about child molestation? Pointing her finger at Theosophists on the matter of pedophilia?
--I've obviously touched a raw nerve here... karma, though, is an apt word, here. I've never karma'ed with small boys... or girls for that matter. And I never will.
"What she *doesn't* know about the brothers Krishnamurti is say - 95% of the story. So, in true keeping with the SPIRIT OF HATRED
--I like that. spirit of hatred. powerful, man.
"we have the ultimate essence of KNOW-IT-ALL manifested here, when in fact, the party in question knows next to NOTHING on the matter she has tried to stir [up].
Well, she is free to speculate, as are we all. And, within reason, I am also free to point out the above FACTS.
So when you decide to set off for your research - confirming or disproving what the jaded MONSTER here has dragged out of the abyss - again, keep a few kilos of salt handy.
-- a monster, whose eyes you must throw salt in... very Biblical man, very Biblical...
"The facts on Nityananda are far from what our new Troll has suggested. he has no understanding or insight into WHY Nityananda had to die, as only an Initiate or Adept could understand the karma involved. Fortunately, we DO have ON RECORD statements from A MAHATMA regarding just this matter ... including discussion of Krishnaji's request to spare the life of his brother.
--Nityananda HAD to die? Sheesh. I hope everyone made sure he got laid before he went.
Such could not be done, owing to the KARMA of the individual in question ... and not for the B.S. reasons that our TROLL has produced. As I say, the discussion is there - "all over the internet" - but it takes someone of REAL INTELLIGENCE and a devotion to TRUTH to find it, an earnest seeker and not simply a know-it-all who actually knows very little from direct experience but likes to parade her book-learning about ... as if this is what gets people into her imaginary heaven.
--this is class, this bit. "It would take someone of intelligence and a devotion to truth to see the real truth, not a person parading their book learning about"... what do they say about pots and kettles? Stanzas of Dyzan, anyone...?
"No, I'm afraid Francis here had ONE AIM when she posted her invective the other day. She was after ONE THING ... and although I'm sure she has already garnered at least part of the smug self-satisfaction that she was after, I will do MY best at this point to deny her the remainder.
I have NO EARTHLY IDEA what she posts, or will post next, and I DON'T CARE. An ignore list exists for a purpose, and Francis has earned the #1 spot on mine!
--so, you want to fight, and then you hide behind the iggy wall... mmm... but, I know you will log on, under your assumed name, just so you can see what's been said. You know it too, Andrew...
Once upon a time I suppose it was possible for her to dialogue with people without attacking them, their Faith and beliefs ... but if that was the case, Francis has forgotten all about why it might be useful. She has no interest in pleasant discourse, as she has a personal vendetta against all things Theosophical and all persons of Theosophical inclination.
-- I made a casual remark about HPB and her reputed contact with the secret masters, and the allegations about leadbetter. You started flinging the excreta. I'm just volleying your serve. Isn't that how people play tennis?
"This comes, as I say, from smug self-certainty and self-righteousness"
--I couldn't have put it better myself, andrew.
YES ... if you want to understand something, DO YOUR OWN RESEARCH.
--again, I like it... That's like something I'd say...
If you only read in circular fashion, BEGINNING with your flawed, faulty conclusion [which itself, in her case, is based on nothing but hatred, jealousy and lies] ... then how ON EARTH do you expect to ever break free of your ignorance and learn even one iota of the Wisdom on a subject?
--I'd like to reiterate your finely expressed sentiment here, andrew, yet change the word "conclusion" to "theosophy books"...
HOW can a person gain insight when mired within pure EGO, blinded by such HATRED?
--Indeed.
Honestly, I think I'd find that pretty embarrassing,
--I agree. It must smart, andrew...
in fact, her little rant and quite pointed attack backfires.
-- substitute her for my, here...
"Francis would love to make a fool of everyone that doesn't see things just as she does ... and this masks a basic insecurity, besides a good bit of self-loathing and childhood trauma, I suspect ~ although again, as neither Asekha Adept, nor enlightened Initiate, I cannot tell you what form of abuse(s) she suffered, or just where & how her personal karma began to manifest in such a way as to produce this rather unpleasant display currently witnessed. [My own story I know, yes, but will withhold, for the moment.
-- and again you get me wrong, Andrew. I don't want to make a fool of you. You've done it far more thoroughly than I ever could. Hats off to you! But, well, 'tis a low blow to suggest I am hating on leadbetter the boy-bummer because I too was cruelly bummed.
The only thing I resent is that she is clever enough, CUNning enough, that she realizes she can access the proverbial chink in the armor and go after others - at precisely their points of weakness ... some of which, at least in some cases, are all too resonant and/or aligned with some of her own.
--ah ha! So YOU were cruelly bummed, and this is all TRANSFERENCE... sorry, andrew. But, I wasn't referring to you in my opening post. Unless Leadbetter consecrated your anus with his Holy rood. I urge you to seek counselling, or Heroin, or something, if that's the case...
Now I don't give a rat's rear that or lovely little dear will deny such, and perhaps pretend that her post was anything other than mean-spirited and INTENDED as purely personal. She was, and is, as I say - out for ONE THING. But there are others here who perhaps can see such a broadside coming from a mile away ... as I WELL SHOULD HAVE ...
--Unless your name is Leadbetter, and you bum boys, my post was not directed at you. Unless you are the reincarnation of HPB, the same applies... (now I have a picture in my head that won't go away.... make it stop, Mommy, make it stop...)...
... and those who have long ago left Francis' poor, petty little understanding behind, ALSO KNOW that the very method of the Guru is sometimes - at a certain point - to specifically ALLOW the Dark Forces to have their way with the disciple or student being tested.
--ooh. Freud would have a field day with you, Andrew. "The guru sometimes allows the DARK FORCES to have their way with the disciple". Sheesh. Are you sure you're not all Crowleyites on the sly
The choice to take the HIGH ROAD, rather than allow penetration of the knife point at the chink in the armor ... is up to EACH PERSON.
--indeed.
In other words, for all that I have said about Francis - true as it may be - how any one of us REACTS or responds to her offensive attacks ... is what really matters.
--indeed.
That being said, she found her way to my ignore list, but not before helping me to realize that yes, this is simply typical ... and this kind of attack, though it's not something I'm used to dealing with except HERE, is just a simple matter of PRACTICE.
--i think you only have to press the button once. i don't know. I don't come hear just to listen to people I agree with. That's not what it's supposed to be about. Or maybe I don't see it like you do -- as a vehicle to promote the cult I'm in.
Well, practice makes PERFECT, and what I don't master on the 1st round, or the 2nd round, or even the 999th, I will certainly ONE DAY have to master - on the 1000th, or what-have-you.
I have Francis to THANK ... for being such a witch here of late. Without that, I wouldn't be able to head off certain possible confrontations from day to day, which I haven't had to deal with for quite some time.
--in the trade, this paragraph is referred to as "the sweetener".
Again, she's pretty ignorant when it comes to occult matters, including what's going on in the world today [beyond her little confused bubble of self-loathing] ... so she has no idea, apparently, that the Spirit which underlies the happenings of the time shall squash her little displays like a bug. Mine too, if I don't get house in proper order.
--you've already proclaimed my ignorance of occult matters.
But to be clear, and blunt, FRANCIS/Sam Albion wouldn't know the Christ if he sat down next to her on the tube ... or knocked on her door, smiling with outstretched hands and Loving heart.
--and this paragraph is the"covering all bases clincher"-- appeal to the xtian majority...
And that won't change very much ... until FRANCIS does.
Nonetheless, deary dear, THANKS for the challenge. It's already done me wonders. I heartily accept, btw, and in the true Spirit of the time, I will meet you whenever the time between us is RIGHT ... although I also don't mind if you want a few more times around the wheel to see, understand and know that IT IS SO.
After all, that's *your* loss ... and I couldn't care less.
Meanwhile, you're just a nuisance, and the less I have to deal with it, the better.
and he concludes with... "go away, you're a nuisance. And he was doing so well, too... ish... if you squint a bit, and lower the lights a little
:wink
Sam Albion
akaFrancisKing:ViveLeRoi!
Had to look these up. America sure is the home of the conspiracy.
radarmark
Quaker-in-the-Making
Sorry, Snoopy. I do not know why we breed so many mouth-breathers and knuckle-draggers (I can say that I used to be one too--had six separate assassins in Dealy Plaza Nov 22, 1963). It is really not that they cannot be bright (DR Griffin, one of the original and most vocal Truthers is an exceptional professor of theology and philosophy--he just is ignorant of science).
Like "socialist" label on Obamacare, when it was Mark Pauly (a Republican economist who influenced the Congress in the Clinton Health Care squabble and almost got G.W. Bush to submit it to Congess (9-11 happened)) who dreampt up the idea of individual mandates as a "market-based alternative" to single payer. We just have no long-term memories (and fall for tent revivalists too easily).
Like "socialist" label on Obamacare, when it was Mark Pauly (a Republican economist who influenced the Congress in the Clinton Health Care squabble and almost got G.W. Bush to submit it to Congess (9-11 happened)) who dreampt up the idea of individual mandates as a "market-based alternative" to single payer. We just have no long-term memories (and fall for tent revivalists too easily).