That's Where the Truth is Found

[radarmark]

Ben-- you catch on. I have same kind of problem with Azure24 on another thread of yours.

 

[Princely]

I don't think you understood my post with this reply of yours. As far as I am concerned this is a non sequitur.
Ben

The answer is there. I understood what you meant about Jesus not being morally correct but that is not what God looks for.

"Genuine worshipers will worship the Lord in spirit and in truth for it is just such worshipers the Lord looks for, for God is spirit and those who worship Him must worship Him in spirit and truth."

 

[Ben Masada]

Ben-- you catch on. I have same kind of problem with Azure24 on another thread of yours.

I don't know! Sometimes I think it is my English which is not good.

 

[Ben Masada]

The answer is there. I understood what you meant about Jesus not being morally correct but that is not what God looks for.

"Genuine worshipers will worship the Lord in spirit and in truth for it is just such worshipers the Lord looks for, for God is spirit and those who worship Him must worship Him in spirit and truth."

Good! That's what Jesus said in John 4:22, when he was having that dialogue with the Samaritan woman; a dialogue between two peoples: The Jews, represented by Jesus and the Gentiles, represented by the Samaritan woman. So, "such worshipers the Lord looks for,..." Do you have any idea what worshipers was Jesus talking about? He said, "you, (Gentiles) worship what you do not understand, while we, (Jews) understand what we worship." No wonder, he proceeded, "after all, salvation is from the Jews." And he said, "from the Jews" and not from one among the Jews.
Ben

 

[Princely]

Good! That's what Jesus said in John 4:22, when he was having that dialogue with the Samaritan woman; a dialogue between two peoples: The Jews, represented by Jesus and the Gentiles, represented by the Samaritan woman. So, "such worshipers the Lord looks for,..." Do you have any idea what worshipers was Jesus talking about? He said, "you, (Gentiles) worship what you do not understand, while we, (Jews) understand what we worship." No wonder, he proceeded, "after all, salvation is from the Jews." And he said, "from the Jews" and not from one among the Jews.
Ben

No, you are putting your take on it. Because Jesus was not in agreement with the so called Jews that is why they had Him crucified. He was speaking of true worshipers like himself and the prophets before Him whom the so called Jews rejected. It is the prophets who are the genuine worshipers, those who keep the ways of the Lord and walk in His paths, who worship in spirit and in truth.

The Lord says this;

Depart from evil, and do good; so you shall abide forever. For the Lord loves justice; he will not forsake his faithful ones. The righteous shall be kept safe forever, but the children of the wicked shall be cut off. The righteous shall inherit the land, and live in it forever. The just mans mouth speaks wisdom, and their tongues speak what is right. The law of their God is in their hearts; their steps do not stumble.

"Consider this, you who forget God, lest I tear you apart, and there will be no one to rescue you. Those who offer praise as a sacrifice glorify me and to those who go the right way I will show the salvation of God."

Judgment will again be done with justice, and all the upright of heart will follow it.


Blessed are those who observe what is right, who do always what is just.

The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom; all those who practice it possess virtue. His praise endures forever.

That's the Lord who lives in me and I in Him. I came down from heaven to do His will not my own. Anyone who chooses to do His will shall know about this teaching, namely, whether it comes from God or I am merely speaking on my own.

 

[Ben Masada]

No, you are putting your take on it. Because Jesus was not in agreement with the so called Jews that is why they had Him crucified. He was speaking of true worshipers like himself and the prophets before Him whom the so called Jews rejected. It is the prophets who are the genuine worshipers, those who keep the ways of the Lord and walk in His paths, who worship in spirit and in truth.

Sorry Princely, you are just telling me that you do not believe in your NT or even in what Jesus said. I am not putting anything of mine into the text. "You people worship what you do not unaderstand, while WE (and not I) understand what WE (and not I) worship." (John 4:22) Read it yourself before you say that I am adding anything of my taking.
Ben

 

[Princely]

Sorry Princely, you are just telling me that you do not believe in your NT or even in what Jesus said. I am not putting anything of mine into the text. "You people worship what you do not unaderstand, while WE (and not I) understand what WE (and not I) worship." (John 4:22) Read it yourself before you say that I am adding anything of my taking.
Ben

I know what Jesus said,but I do not agree he was speaking for the Jews that you are thinking of.

 

[Ben Masada]

I know what Jesus said,but I do not agree he was speaking for the Jews that you are thinking of.

Good! Do you know something? You almost said what I wanted to hear. I mean, to read. That Jesus was not a Jewish man. Perhaps that he was a Greek. If that could be verified, it would save a lot of troubles for Christianity. At least, Christians would not have to juggle around to explain why and how Jesus was a demigod, which is the son of a god with an earthly woman. A thing which is so foreign to Judaism.
Ben

 

[Princely]

Good! Do you know something? You almost said what I wanted to hear. I mean, to read. That Jesus was not a Jewish man. Perhaps that he was a Greek. If that could be verified, it would save a lot of troubles for Christianity. At least, Christians would not have to juggle around to explain why and how Jesus was a demigod, which is the son of a god with an earthly woman. A thing which is so foreign to Judaism.
Ben

I didn't say Jesus wasn't Jewish. I said He was not speaking of salvation coming from the Jews you think are Jews. Jews are those who serve the Lord in righteousness and walk in His ways as all the prophets do.

The Lord says this; "The Lord God does nothing without revealing His plans to HIS SERVANTS, THE PROPHETS."

"When the lion roars who will not fear it? When the Lord God speaks who will not prophecy."

 

[Ben Masada]

I didn't say Jesus wasn't Jewish. I said He was not speaking of salvation coming from the Jews you think are Jews. Jews are those who serve the Lord in righteousness and walk in His ways as all the prophets do.

The Lord says this; "The Lord God does nothing without revealing His plans to HIS SERVANTS, THE PROPHETS."

"When the lion roars who will not fear it? When the Lord God speaks who will not prophecy."

I know, you did not say Jesus wan't Jewish. I said you almost could have said what I needed to hear. If he was not speaking of salvation coming from the Jews, what was he speaking of in John 4:22? Care to enlighten me? IMHO, what he said couldn't be more clear than exactly that.

What do you think I think are Jews? That's sounds funny. And who is judging that we don't serve the Lord in righteousness, you? And who has decided that we do not walk in His ways as the prophets do? I mean, did. We don't have any more prophets. The prophetical system was sealed up with the New Covenant at the return of the Jewish People from exile in Babylon. (Dan. 9:24)

And last but not least, the Lord no longer needs to reveal His plans to His servant the prophets. We have the Scriptures. We don't need prophets anymore. The Lord God speaks to us through the Scriptures. All we need is to reach for them, which are as near to us as our own mouth and heart.
(Deut. 30:11-14)
Ben

 

[Princely]

If he was not speaking of salvation coming from the Jews, what was he speaking of in John 4:22? Care to enlighten me? IMHO, what he said couldn't be more clear than exactly that. Ben

He was speaking of salvation coming from the prophets, who are the Jews. A prophet is anyone who speaks and spreads the truth which is the word of the Lord.The prophets are not gone anymore, I am the son of man.We all must be son of man and live as One ,by recognizing the Lord and spreading the truth. That is why I keep repeating this verse; "Speak the truth to one another, judge justly, and let honesty and peace be at your gates."

What do you think I think are Jews? That's sounds funny. And who is judging that we don't serve the Lord in righteousness, you? And who has decided that we do not walk in His ways as the prophets do? I mean, did. We don't have any more prophets. The prophetical system was sealed up with the New Covenant at the return of the Jewish People from exile in Babylon. (Dan. 9:24)
Ben

Like I said the prophets are the Jews. Anyone who spreads the truth, the word of the Lord and teaches others to do so is a prophet.That is why Jesus came.That is why I am here. You may think the prophetical system is sealed up but you are not correct because only the servants ,Gods prophets understand and you are not one.

And last but not least, the Lord no longer needs to reveal His plans to His servant the prophets. We have the Scriptures. We don't need prophets anymore. The Lord God speaks to us through the Scriptures. All we need is to reach for them, which are as near to us as our own mouth and heart.
(Deut. 30:11-14) Ben

I He reveals the meaning of His words to His servants the prophets.You cannot know the meaning unless you speak the truth to others and worship the Lord in spirit and in truth, as scripture says.

"The wise will shine brightly like the firmament, and those who lead the many to justice will be like the stars forever."

 

[Ben Masada]

Like I said the prophets are the Jews. Anyone who spreads the truth, the word of the Lord and teaches others to do so is a prophet.That is why Jesus came.That is why I am here. You may think the prophetical system is sealed up but you are not correct because only the servants ,Gods prophets understand and you are not one.

If the prophets are the Jews, when Jesus said that salvation comes from the Jews, he meant the Jewish People. (John 4:22) Jesus was just another Jew who was born in this world. Nothing more special than being a Rabbi. (John 3:1,2)

Have you read Daniel 9:24? It is not only that I think. "Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city to seal up the vision and prophecy."

What does it mean if the prophetic system is not over? The function of the prophets, till before the exile in Babylon, was to teach the people about the Law and to speak to the people on behalf of God's will.

According to Jeremiah 31:34, "And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, 'know the Lord'; for they shall all know Me from the least of them till the greatest of them." It means that there would be no longer need of prophets.
Ben

 

[Princely]

If the prophets are the Jews, when Jesus said that salvation comes from the Jews, he meant the Jewish People. (John 4:22) Jesus was just another Jew who was born in this world. Nothing more special than being a Rabbi. (John 3:1,2)

He was talking about the Jewish people, yes. But a true Jew is not the people that the world now thinks of as Jews. Like I said a true Jew spreads the word of the son of man and walks in the light of the Lord.

Have you read Daniel 9:24? It is not only that I think. "Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city to seal up the vision and prophecy."

It is not to seal up vision and prophecy but to put Gods seal of approval on vision and prophecy or a stamp of approval on it. To anoint a most holy is done with prophecy and righteousness, which you are not allowed to comprehend, because you are not a prophet/servant.

Chatham means: to seal, seal up, affix a seal

"Seventy weeks are decreed for your people and your holy city, to finish the transgression, to put an end to sin, and to atone for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to put a seal on vision and prophecy, and to anoint a most holy."

According to Jeremiah 31:34, "And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, 'know the Lord'; for they shall all know Me from the least of them till the greatest of them." It means that there would be no longer need of prophets.
Ben

This is at the ends of the earth when Gods kingdom is here, obviously that is not the case. But will happen soon.

The Lord who sent me says this;

"Faithfulness has disappeared the word of God is gone from their speech."

"When the lion roars who will not fear it, when the Lord God speaks who will not prophecy."

"All those who do right shall rise to live, the evildoers shall rise to be condemned."

"Seek justice seek humility perhaps you'll be sheltered on the day of the Lords anger."

Do what is right and just, says the Lord

 

[Ben Masada]

He was talking about the Jewish people, yes. But a true Jew is not the people that the world now thinks of as Jews. Like I said a true Jew spreads the word of the son of man and walks in the light of the Lord.

And who are you to judge? What makes you think I do not walk in the light of the Lord? I think you must be frustrated by what the Jewish People have achieved in making of this world a better place for all to live. That's the reason why you deny the present Jewish identity.

It is not to seal up vision and prophecy but to put Gods seal of approval on vision and prophecy or a stamp of approval on it. To anoint a most holy is done with prophecy and righteousness, which you are not allowed to comprehend, because you are not a prophet/servant.

Any claim of being a prophet today is tantamount to being a false prophet.

Chatham means: to seal, seal up, affix a seal

Do you have any idea why we seal up an envelop with a letter inside? It is because we have finished writing that letter. Doesn't it ring a bell in your ears to understand Daniel 9:24?

"Seventy weeks are decreed for your people and your holy city, to finish the transgression, to put an end to sin, and to atone for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to put a seal on vision and prophecy, and to anoint a most holy."

Now, try to understand how all the above happened without a single sacrifice. Your Christian preconceived notion won't allow you to.

This is at the ends of the earth when Gods kingdom is here, obviously that is not the case. But will happen soon.

God's kingdom is not a place one is expected to get into. Jesus himself said that it is within ourselves. Esoteric therefore. (Luke 17:25)

The Lord who sent me says this; "Faithfulness has disappeared the word of God is gone from their speech."

Perhaps from your speech; not from mine.

"When the lion roars who will not fear it, when the Lord God speaks who will not prophecy."

What God has spoken has been recorded in the Scriptures. That's the Law and the Prophets. We no longer need any more prophets. (Dan. 9:24)

"All those who do right shall rise to live, the evildoers shall rise to be condemned."

The dead no longer do any right or wrong. They will never again have part in any thing that's done under the sun. (Eccl. 9:5,6)

"Seek justice seek humility perhaps you'll be sheltered on the day of the Lords anger."

Anger is an emotion. The Lord is not activated by emotions. This attribute belongs only to the gods of Greek Mythology. Read the Iliad of Homer.

Do what is right and just, says the Lord

Don't forget that!

Ben

 

[Princely]

And who are you to judge? What makes you think I do not walk in the light of the Lord? I think you must be frustrated by what the Jewish People have achieved in making of this world a better place for all to live. That's the reason why you deny the present Jewish identity.

Because I know the Lord and I keep His words. You know neither me nor my Father. If you knew me, you would know my Father also.
You belong to what is below, I belong to what is above. You belong to this world, but I do not belong to this world.

I do nothing on my own, I judge as I hear and my judgment is just because I am not seeking my own will but the will of Him who sent me.

Any claim of being a prophet today is tantamount to being a false prophet.

You misunderstand scripture because you do not prophecy and speak the truth."The Lords power will be known to His servants." The Lord God does nothing without revealing His plans to His servants the prophets."

The works I do in my Fathers name bear witness for me. The reason you do not believe in me is you are not my sheep. My sheep hear my voice I know them and they follow me, I give them eternal life and they will never perish.

Do you have any idea why we seal up an envelop with a letter inside? It is because we have finished writing that letter. Doesn't it ring a bell in your ears to understand Daniel 9:24?

Like I said it does not say seal up. It says a seal is put on it like when a king would put a seal to show it is His property. It is a seal of God that only the righteous servant can understand. Which you are not because you think you cannot prophecy when in truth everyone must.

Now, try to understand how all the above happened without a single sacrifice. Your Christian preconceived notion won't allow you to.

I am son of man a true believer.

God's kingdom is not a place one is expected to get into. Jesus himself said that it is within ourselves. Esoteric therefore. (Luke 17:25)

No He said "The kingdom of God is among you".

Perhaps from your speech; not from mine.

Obviously not from mine I'm the one quoting the Lord but you seek your own glory.

What God has spoken has been recorded in the Scriptures. That's the Law and the Prophets. We no longer need any more prophets. (Dan. 9:24)

A prophet speaks or spreads the word of God, the law and the prophets. You misunderstand. If you continue in my teaching, you are truly my disciple, THEN YOU WILL KNOW THE TRUTH AND THE TRUTH WILL SET YOU FREE.

That is why scripture says;Matt 7:12 "In everything, do to others as you would have done to you, this is the law and the prophets."
You see,do to others, the law and the prophets. In other words spread the word of God, the law and the prophets, prophecy.

The dead no longer do any right or wrong. They will never again have part in any thing that's done under the sun. (Eccl. 9:5,6)

That is speaking of death of the flesh not spiritual death as the evildoers are dead. Their flesh is alive but they are spiritually dead.

Anger is an emotion. The Lord is not activated by emotions. This attribute belongs only to the gods of Greek Mythology. Read the Iliad of Homer.

No I don't need to read anything other than the word of the Lord. By the way scripture says God gets angry. Search "Angry" and you will see plenty of times God was angry.

Don't forget that! Ben

That's why I post it and" keep the ways of the Lord by doing what is right and just," so I walk in the light and the darkness won't come over me.

I do nothing on my own, I only say what the Lord has taught me for the One who sent me is with me He has not deserted me because I always do what pleases Him.

I am the resurrection and the life, any one who believes in me even though he is dead he shall come to life and anyone who lives and believes in me shall never die.

 

[Ben Masada]

A prophet speaks or spreads the word of God, the law and the prophets. You misunderstand. If you continue in my teaching, you are truly my disciple, THEN YOU WILL KNOW THE TRUTH AND THE TRUTH WILL SET YOU FREE.

That is why scripture says;Matt 7:12 "In everything, do to others as you would have done to you, this is the law and the prophets."
You see,do to others, the law and the prophets. In other words spread the word of God, the law and the prophets, prophecy.

Do you know the Truth? What is the Truth? Jesus himself said that the Truth is the Word of God. See John 17:17. That's the Word of God that the Psalmist said was entrusted to Israel only and to no other people on earth. See Psalm 147:19,20. If the Truth you claim to know, you did not learn from Israel, you can never be set free.

Now, about the Golden Rule that you have mentioned above from Matthew 7:12, is psychologically wrong, illogical and even dangerous. If one is to do unto others as one would have it done to him or herself, what about if one is masochist and loves to be whipped until he or she is bleeding? There are many of those around. Is he or she supposed to go around doing the same to others so that his or her desire be satisfied? Of course not! It would make no sense.

Therefore, here is the right version of the Golden Rule for your records: "Do not do unto others what you would not like they did unto you." That's how Hillel spoke and how Jesus learned from him. The Hellenistic guy who wrote the gospel of Matthew probably borrowed that version of his from Hellenistic Literature.
Ben

 

[Princely]

Do you know the Truth? What is the Truth? Jesus himself said that the Truth is the Word of God. See John 17:17. That's the Word of God that the Psalmist said was entrusted to Israel only and to no other people on earth. See Psalm 147:19,20. If the Truth you claim to know, you did not learn from Israel, you can never be set free.

Now, about the Golden Rule that you have mentioned above from Matthew 7:12, is psychologically wrong, illogical and even dangerous. If one is to do unto others as one would have it done to him or herself, what about if one is masochist and loves to be whipped until he or she is bleeding? There are many of those around. Is he or she supposed to go around doing the same to others so that his or her desire be satisfied? Of course not! It would make no sense.

Therefore, here is the right version of the Golden Rule for your records: "Do not do unto others what you would not like they did unto you." That's how Hillel spoke and how Jesus learned from him. The Hellenistic guy who wrote the gospel of Matthew probably borrowed that version of his from Hellenistic Literature.
Ben

Whatever Jesus has said, I have as well. I know and hear what I post. You must not really read what I post because I spelled it out plainly that spreading the word of the Lord is doing to others as you would have them do to you.

Yes the word of the Lord is from Israel but Israel is the prophets of the Lord, the son of man.

I am Israel, the son of man ,son of God, the prophet of the Lord who is One in the Lord and serves Him in truth.

I am the light of the world, no one who comes to me shall ever walk in darkness because he will possess the light of life.

I am going to make right a measuring line and justice a level.

 

[Ben Masada]

Whatever Jesus has said, I have as well. I know and hear what I post. You must not really read what I post because I spelled it out plainly that spreading the word of the Lord is doing to others as you would have them do to you.

Yes the word of the Lord is from Israel but Israel is the prophets of the Lord, the son of man.

I am Israel, the son of man ,son of God, the prophet of the Lord who is One in the Lord and serves Him in truth.

I am the light of the world, no one who comes to me shall ever walk in darkness because he will possess the light of life.

I am going to make right a measuring line and justice a level.

IMHO, when Jesus said he was the light of the world, he spoke as part of the light which he himself, in another occasion, applied it to the People of Israel in general. Take a look at Matthew 5:14. Here, Jesus was delivering his sermon of the mount to a crowd of Jews, according to Matthew 5:1; 7:28, as he said, "You are the light of the world."
Ben

 

[Princely]

He said he was the light of the world but that those who follow Him as he walked and talked were to become the light of the world. But as you can see nobody has really done that except me, at least from what I have encountered. He wanted those who follow him to deliver the same message as he did.

JN 8:12 "I am the light of the world, no one who follows me shall ever walk in darkness because he will possess the light of life."

Matt 5:1 When Jesus saw the crowds, he went up the mountain; and after he sat down, his disciples came to him. 2 Then he began to speak, and taught them, saying: 3 "Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. 4 "Blessed are those who mourn, for they will be comforted. 5 "Blessed are the meek, for they will inherit the land. 6 "Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they will be filled. 7 "Blessed are the merciful, for they will receive mercy. 8 "Blessed are the pure in heart, for they will see God. 9 "Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called children of God. 10 "Blessed are those who are persecuted for righteousness' sake, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. 11 "Blessed are you when people revile you and persecute you and utter all kinds of evil against you falsely on my account. 12 Rejoice and be glad, for your reward is great in heaven, for in the same way they persecuted the PROPHETS who were before you. 13 "You are the salt of the earth; but if salt has lost its taste, how can its saltiness be restored? It is no longer good for anything, but is thrown out and trampled under foot. 14 "You are the light of the world. A city built on a hill cannot be hid. 15 No one after lighting a lamp puts it under the bushel basket, but on the lampstand, and it gives light to all in the house. 16 In the same way, your light should shine before others, so that they may see your good works and give glory to your Father in heaven."

The son of man has said He is the truth which is the word of God. He also said He is the Light. So if He is the Light then the light is also the word of God. And if your light must shine before others then the word of God must come out of your mouth which makes you a prophet. That is why He said they persecuted the prophets before you, in effect calling you a prophet. Not only that but He said your light must shine so they will see your good works, in effect saying that spreading the word of the Lord is good works.

 

[bananabrain]

But a true Jew is not the people that the world now thinks of as Jews.Like I said a true Jew spreads the word of the son of man and walks in the light of the Lord.

oh... reaaaaaalllly. so i'm not a true jew? where do you get off? i know it is usually ben masada that i end up telling to read the code of conduct, but in this case it's you. you do not get to tell jews who is a jew. we will do that for ourselves, thank you very much indeed.

Because I know the Lord and I keep His words. You know neither me nor my Father. If you knew me, you would know my Father also. You belong to what is below, I belong to what is above. You belong to this world, but I do not belong to this world.

ok, this is starting to get silly. <mod>THIS IS A DIALOGUE BOARD!

if you can't get a grip, there will be consequences.</mod>

b'shalom

bananabrain