Who are the Masters?

If you understand Initiation, then no, it is not superfluous, but it is also not the path that all of us must, or will tread. It is very much a forcing process, and we learn in the Tibetan Master's writings that it is UNIVERSAL (essentially) but that it is also not applied or attempted on all planets as is currently the case with planet Earth. This sounds contradictory, yet I think it's clarified via further explanation.

I seem to recall that on Venus the method of Initiation was applied, and this is why that Scheme reached the goal for Planetary Evolution a full Round and a half before schedule. This is why Venus has been able to lend her assistance to Earth's evolution for ~18 million years, and why she is referred to as our Sister Scheme.

Also, in Buddhism - and sometimes in esoteric teachings - the Bodhisattva Way is understood as applying to relatively enlightened souls ... so yes, it can include people such as you and I. But to say, "I am a Bodhisattva" would certainly be misleading to anyone that knows us, now wouldn't it.

In Theosophical or other occult circles, one sometimes hears the terms Arhat (Arhan, Lohan, Lohat, Rahat, all interchangeable) ... and Master, Adept or Bodhisattva ... all applied to Initiates who are clearly below the 4th, 5th and 7th degrees of Initiation, respectively. Additionally, there came a time in the Theosophical Society's history when CWL and Annie Besant were doling out initiations like gold stars, going around telling all sorts of folks they'd achieved the arhat initiation or similar.

I think that most experienced students know this was crap. CWL gets corrected a little later as the Tibetan Master explains that he made a few mistakes, and Master DK sure ought to know. He was the one training CWL, and he knew precisely what was going on, including the whole business over the Maitreya project, as it has unfortunately been termed.

Please don't think for an instant that Leadbeater, Besant or the other Theosophists were mistaken, however, about Krishnamurti ... or that their teachings on the Initiations are inherently flawed or misleading. The fact that such information originated with the Mahatmas (of Whom we can name half a dozen, easily, Who were instrumental in the TS's origins) is indisputable, once certain realizations are at hand. No Theosophist is *required* to believe this, and for good reason. Most, on the other hand, come to see the Truth on their own. Else, like C.S. Lewis, they forsake their calling ... and look elsewhere.

So, again, Initiation when understood, is something we cannot deny, as it occurs planetwide, every day, affecting millions - or billions. Once you have a better idea of what is being suggested ... it becomes impossible to believe otherwise. But when the topic is glamourized, and/or when we are only or primarily concened with questions like, "Oh, am I an initiate? WHEN will I take initiation? and so on" ... it's better to probably just set the whole idea aside until we come to a clearer understanding, or better presentation that we are accustomed to.

The best book for anyone with at least a little familiarity with the Path of Occultism [Esotericism] is Initiation Human and Solar, the first book written by Alice Bailey with the Tibetan Master. It can be read online, or ordered from Amazon.com or Lucis Trust. I'll start a thread on it if it looks like folks are as interested in that as in discussing the Masters.
 
Andrew,

I think we are agreeing here, we are just getting mixed up in terminology. I see the 4th Initiation as the Arhat Initiation and the 5th Initiation as the Adept/Asekha/Master/Enlightenment Initiation. As you say, someone who has achieved the 5th Initiation (enlightenment) was an Arhat back when they achieved the 4th Initiation and technically they are still an Arhat, but there is no reason to call a person an Arhat after they have achieved the higher level of Adept.

"...the Bodhisattva Way is understood as applying to relatively enlightened souls ... so yes, it can include people such as you and I. But to say, "I am a Bodhisattva" would certainly be misleading to anyone that knows us, now wouldn't it."

--> Well I suppose, but I personally would never refer to someone as a Bodhisattva until they have achieved enlightenment (the 5th Initiation). This also assumes you and I have not achieved enlightenment yet!

"I seem to recall that on Venus the method of Initiation was applied..."

--> This is a curious statement. I am sure that Initiations have been occuring since the very first appearance of our solar system, gazillions of years before Venus ever appeared. Are you saying Initiations first started happening on Venus?
 
Nick the Pilot said:
Andrew,

You said,

"The highest point of attainment required in order to move on from Earth's evolution was once the 5th Initiation, but this changed - after millions of years - just a few decades ago."

--> That is a fascinating idea, but I will stick with the Theosophical teaching, which says the seventh Initiation has always been the moment of achieving enlightenment -- the moment of finally being allowed to move on from Earth's evolution.
Click to expand...
Actually Nick, this is mistaken. The 7th Initiation is not required in order to move on from Earth's evolution. I think you should check your sources. It is pointed out that Asekha Adept, as the very name implies, grants us our Soul's complete freedom. Prior to that, one is still "absorbing" the effects of the Soul departing at the Arhat Initiation, which means a direct Incarnation of the Monad ...

When Theosophical Teachings were given, the same goal as has existed for aeons was required; but during the World Wars, the Hierarchy was asked from Shambhala to toughen up the requirements, as so many souls were beginning to make spiritual progress. This is in complete accord with the idea that on the Moon Chain, the required Intiation was bumped up from the 3rd to the 4th, where it remained thus until the door of Individualization was opened during Atlantean times. THAT is when it became the 5th Init, since billions of souls reached the human stage of evolution.

By no means are we going to end up with a planet full of Bodhisattvas, just milling about with nothing further to learn or do here on the globe except reach out to a needy Humanity. In truth, the ethers are full of Deva souls anyway, and yet additional evolutions, some of which you and I know nothing about ... such as the 3rd evolution we share the planet with. Did you know about that one?

Anyway, you are speaking of the GOAL, at this point for 7th Rounders, although I would imagine we may even become Full Buddhas by that time. We should be careful not to confuse the present goal (6th Init, used to be 5th) with the eventual prevailing condition here on the planet. The latter cannot occur, for everyone, for some time to come. Judgment Day, as we well know, is the middle of the 5th Round in Theosophical Teaching. Even by then, we will not have a planet of Arhats, Adepts, much less Bodhisattvas.

I am saying that in order for Nick, Andrew, or anyone else to "graduate" NOW, we must become a 6th Degree Master or Initiate. When that occurs, we MOVE ON, and one of 7 (or more) Paths of Higher Evolution opens before us. Only a VERY small % of Masters choose to remain in Earth's Spiritual Hierarchy, going on to become greater Initiates here in THIS evolution. Some few are asked to remain by the Lord of the World, as was the case with The Buddha Shakyamuni, for reasons that most of us will find understandable. Now that the Buddha has fulfilled his `Mission,' He will be moving on - if He hasn't already - to HIS Higher Path ... taking Him away from Earth indefinitely.

I hope that helps, but if in doubt, you can revisit your sources. I think CWL makes this clear, probably in several books.

Also, yes, these Teachings differ considerably from exoteric Buddhism ... as many references to the Christ differ from exoteric Christianity. I am not apologizing; I'm just clarifying this. :)

Here is a link to a page of summary info (mouse-over to see better) on the 7 Paths of Evolution that open up before us once we "graduate" from Earth's schoolroom. There is more info readily available if you do a Google search (it's how I found the above link).
 
Radar,

Now that I think about it, Gautama was a Bodhisattva. But my belief system distinguishes between different kinds of Bodhisattvas. In my belief system a person who achieves enlightenment but refuses nirvana is called a Manushi (earthly) Bodhisattva. But according to my belief system, when Gautama he assumed the position of Earth Teacher ("Buddha"), he became the direct assistant to Amida Buddha (who is called a Dhyani Budda or kosmic Buddha). I see Gautama as a Dhyani or kosmic Bodhisattva whereas I see you and I becoming 'earthly' Bodhisattvas as soon as we achieve enlightenment, and this is how I separate out the different kinds of Bodhisattvas. There is also Guanyin Bodhisattva in Buddhism, the highest Buddhist deity in our universe, yes Buddhists also call her a Bodhisattva, and no Buddhist would say that Gautama's Bodhisattva-hood is equivalent to Guanyin's Bodhisattva-hood.
 
I am simply saying that it is more valuable to work on yourself than worry about others, and in fact you are more capable of helping others when you are helped.

This is my problem with the Mahayana branch of Buddhism - despite loving many Zen masters. They have made it something admirable to delay, it only shows the mind has arisen again. It makes no difference whether the thought is good or bad, the thought itself is going to prevent you from going to the other shore. I have much respect for the Tibetan school of which Blavatsky was trained, but their attitude is utterly backwards...

Fighting evil is always the exoteric way, it seems. Christians are certainly obsessed with evil, as are the Muslims, and so of course they see it everywhere. There are many Zen koans portraying the idiocy of fighting evil as well, but always people miss the point. Moral and ethical training doesn't help enlightenment, it just means you are obsessed with dividing the world. Enlightenment is the transcending of opposites, the experience of oneness. Concentrating on training a person creates nothing but a pet, you will think you are a good person but you have devolved.

All that is necessary is to drop all views, all ideas, all conceptions - about who you are and what this world is, EVERYTHING. Clean your mirror, purify your being, do not stop until all that is left is truth. Truth happens spontaneously when both positive and negative is merged, pushing in either direction just keeps the pendulum swinging.

Mind enjoys a task, so religious schools give it plenty, you do not understand that it is the dropping of these pointless tasks and lessons that will cause the goal to be realized - indeed, even the endeavor and consideration of the goal must be dropped.

When you are not, God is, you simply allow yourself to dissolve.
 
Andrew,

You are right, I got those two numbers mixed up, 5th vs. 7th Initiation.

"I am saying that in order for Nick, Andrew, or anyone else to "graduate" NOW, we must become a 6th Degree Master or Initiate."

--> Sorry, that idea doesn't fit into my belief system.
 
Nick the Pilot said:
Radar,

Now that I think about it, Gautama was a Bodhisattva. But my belief system distinguishes between different kinds of Bodhisattvas. In my belief system a person who achieves enlightenment but refuses nirvana is called a Manushi (earthly) Bodhisattva. But according to my belief system, when Gautama he assumed the position of Earth Teacher ("Buddha"), he became the direct assistant to Amida Buddha (who is called a Dhyani Budda or kosmic Buddha). I see Gautama as a Dhyani or kosmic Bodhisattva whereas I see you and I becoming 'earthly' Bodhisattvas as soon as we achieve enlightenment, and this is how I separate out the different kinds of Bodhisattvas. There is also Guanyin Bodhisattva in Buddhism, the highest Buddhist deity in our universe, yes Buddhists also call her a Bodhisattva, and no Buddhist would say that Gautama's Bodhisattva-hood is equivalent to Guanyin's Bodhisattva-hood.
Click to expand...

This is the mind, only the mind differentiates.

There is no difference between you or I and Buddha, you are not aware of it though, whereas I am. Dharmakaya is Buddha's name for the god-like state, for what the Bible calls Michael - resembling God. It is the state of no-separation. Certainly, the play continues after enlightenment, but now all is subjective, the object is no more. This is the goal, but the mind likes thinking it is learning, and you are fueling its pursuit.

When all is one, how can you separate anything? Separation is the work of the mind, you must overcome this. Truth doesn't care about your beliefs, stop believing and find truth for yourself.
 
Be honest with yourself and ask how this information you have gathered has helped.

Whatsoever has not helped, simply drop.

Even that which has helped must be dropped in the end, for it keeps you trapped in the past. Even your experiences must be dropped if they have not been maintained, only that which is permanent is important.

What is permanent is already within you, why will you search somewhere else for it?

Just stop and look.
 
Everything observable is not truth, it is a phenomenal thing.

Can the observer be observed? This is what you must find out, the answer is not found in language, it must be experienced. This is the ultimate understanding, find out what is the nature of the observer and no secrets remain in the universe, keep acquiring knowledge and you will die empty handed.

If you consider it, you are aware of what is being observed. You are aware that there is an observer, who is it that is aware? Do not say "I am", find out who has declared "I".

Whatsoever arises, this is not the answer, but you are still observing the answer, dig deeper and see from where it has arisen.

Only when the mind exhausts its offerings will truth happen, it is spontaneous though, you cannot do anything but make room for it. This is let go, you must be prepared to die for truth, for in a way you will - what you are right now will be no more after. It is the second birth, but the mother will not survive this. Only when you are utterly empty will He fill you, this is the only miracle that has any value.

Belief in Him is not sufficient, it is just an idea.

Go within and find Him, allow yourself to dissolve when you do - you will not understand what is meant by dissolve, just be ready and allow.

If you are not ready for this, you are simply wasting your time with religious pursuits.
 
Masters/A few more thoughts on Initiation

At risk of derailing my own thread, I'll add that I have known several Initiates of the 3rd Degree; these probably number in the many 100s, maybe more, currently in incarnation. A good number will go on to take another Initiation in their current lifetime, most likely under the great stimulus of the incarnating World Teacher (as before, as always).

I have also known a few Arhats, but only a few. Paramahamsa Yogananda is the best example many people will recognize, the term itself referring to the Initiation in question. In Sanskrit, a HAMSA or Swan, and this calls to mind the image of Gracefulness, as demonstrated by a High Initiate (a 3rd Degree Initiate is also a 1st Degree Initiate on the Great Lodge of Sirius).

A PARA-MA-Hamsa is beyond this Initiation, just as the Buddha was PARA-SAM-gate ... and for further commentary on some distinctions:

The Ideal of the Theravadin Path, or Way of the Elders, is the Arhat Initiation. Such jivanmuktas are called Venerable Ones, but they are also not free of future incarnations, whatever exoteric teaching may indicate to the contrary. Esoterically, they may have won the right to a temporary (seemingly eternal) escape from Samsara, yet we are told they must return ... at some future date, and complete their DHARMA with relation to the Human Family. Thus, they may end up overshadowing a fledgling human being (as Agnishvattas), just as our own Souls currently do with us.

The Mahayana Path holds a higher Ideal, that of the Buddha. Esoteric Teaching clarifies that this is the 8th Degree of Initiation, and is RARELY taken upon this particular planet, since only the TINIEST % of human souls will need to remain in the Earth Hierarchy where that becomes possible. To date, NO Human being from our own evolution has attained to this high Initiation. The Buddha Shakyamuni does not originate from our own, current Chain ... so he would not count. Christ will be the 1st, as he is a true, Atlantean (or Lemurian) Soul, individualizing on Earth rather than the Moon (and certainly not on Venus or Sirius, as I have sometimes read).

When you contemplate the relatively small number of Asekha Adepts now assisting with Earth's evolution, you understand the inspiration behind the occult saying that:

"The Mahatma is therare efflorescence of a generation of seekers."

We are speaking of perhaps 50-some individual souls, with perhaps a few dozen more who are temporarily lending their hand ... plus perhaps a few hundred or more (maybe many more) within the Deva Kingdom of equivalent degree of evolution.

The Chohans, 6th Degree Initiates, are rare, as are Initiates of Higher Degree. The Tibetan Master, attaining to the 5th Initiation in 1875, tells us point blank that there is little he can say of the Initiations beyond a certain point, since he has no firsthand knowledge. For longtime students, this almost seems surprising. However, Biblically we are also told that "no one knows the exact hour" when it comes to Christ's return; and again, Master DK confirms it.

Initiates of the 2nd and 1st degree are numerous; some post on these forums, and we have all met a few, if we haven't taken those initiations ourselves. This number, referring to those who have been occultly Twice-Born or Baptized, will increase as the World Teacher and Hierarchy externalize. Eventually, if not for several centuries, specific Esoteric Schools will appear on Earth. The purpose of these, among other things, is primarily to prepare students to walk the Path of Initiation. It is also for this purpose that early instances of these schools have appeared, including the esoteric section of the Theosophical Society, the Arcane School (started by Alice Bailey), et al. The number of these schools will increase, and they will soon be found - again, at least in embryo - in every country.

So, I would have to argue the following: Just as is the case with Rebirth, it really doesn't matter whether you are interested in Initiation or not, or have even heard of it. None of this makes the slightest difference for those who Serve on the Inner planes, nor for those in incarnation and in the physical body whose task it is to help anchor the Wisdom for others.

Besides, in the vast majority of cases, Initiation will occur while out of the body, and we will not likely become aware of it in the personality consciousness as such ... until such time (perhaps in our next incarnation or later) as this becomes necessary. The effects, however, are unmistakable, and I have been able to identify many, many dozens of individuals over the years as having taken one Initiation or another ... even while some of these would certainly have no idea what I was talking about if I mentioned it. The point here is, if you can't see how this would possibly be the case, you should probably read up a bit more on the subject ... perhaps starting with what I would consider an authoritative and reliable source, but certainly reserving judgment and creedence to your own faculties of insight and intuition.
 
Lunitik

Just to comment, it sounds like you have a method, a practice, and a set of beliefs (or lack thereof) that work for you. I can respect that. I think you also need to recognize that we're not hypothesizing here, or tossing the dice, or playing a game of poker to see what each person has in their hand. Instead, it's a discussion of the Masters, including teachings that most definitely instruct us on the nature of the Great Ones, and what we can do to reach them, if we are thus inclined, as well as how we can be OF SERVICE to Them, the latter being GUARANTEED if your true interest, your deepest Heart's desire, includes being of assistance to your fellow human being(s).

I'm not arguing for an instant that there aren't other paths, or even the famous Teaching of the Buddha that we should "cease to hold views." The Tibetan Master, who was Dharmajyoti (et al), often tells us that yes, from a certain point of view, most of the specifics that we must now study will take on a different meaning, or that they will come together in such a way that a lot of things which now seem confusing, or unnecessary, will become clear. This does NOT mean, however, that you can simply set aside the Path that you are on. By definition, this is exactly the opposite from what you should be doing.

Your path works for you. I don't argue that. I think you are entirely off base if you attempt to say something like, "oh, you don't have a NEED for such-and-such" or if you suggest that we just abandon this, that or the other. This is not sound advice, and it is not likely to be helpful except in very specific circumstances, for certain individuals. Neither you nor I, however, is in a position to do that. The best that we can do, at least on a public forum, is to share our opinions, perhaps give a few leads - or recommend some things to people WHO ASK. Be very careful, however, that you do not bind yourself karmically, precisely by misdirecting someone, EVEN WHEN or if your motives have been 100% pure, the desire only to be helpful.

Until YOU are Askeha Adept, you cannot take students, and every person out there who hasn't heeded this warning ... has met with the consequences. It's EASY to proscribe for others; but I will agree with you that often what we need most ... is a dose of our OWN medicine.

To that tune, I believe everything I've shared, and quite frankly, I've tried to be patient as I have watched you pretty well gloss over the majority of that, on every single thread I've posted to. Perhaps I am unique in this, but what I'm finding is, it's just not helping. In short, I think you should leave people to make their own choices, decide things for themselves, etc. Worry less about saving us all from error and ruin, even if you are somehow convinced that all we're doing is creating miles and piles of trials. Thus far, I have YET to regret the Path I'm on, even as imperfectly as I find myself treading it.

I am NOT walking your path, and you are NOT walking mine. Not even Nick, whose views may be closest to my own here at Interfaith, will agree with everything I share (have you noticed, on this very thread?) ... and vice versa. It doesn't mean we can't discuss, and I welcome your thoughts, overall. I just don't think it's productive if you go around constantly naysaying, and insisting that we're all, somehow, misguided. Yes, I even recognize something in this (as not so alien), and this bothers me, I assure you. But I will gladly acknowledge that each of us has our own road to Truth (and self-discovery, etc.) ... and honestly, I get a little bit tired of seeing ANYONE tell me, over and over, that I need to shut up and take THEIR medicine.

How's that sound? :)
 
All paths culminate with what I am saying, I am not interested in the nonsense leading to this point, I simply point at the way home.

I am not speaking from a place other than that home, join me is my message.

You call it a path, no, every path is false because all paths take you away from yourself, they are just distractions - none are going to help.

You already are what you are seeking, you only have to stop seeking and realize it.
 
Of course, part of the plight is to go utterly into the pursuit and see rightly that you are impotent to do anything. You have said you are in the Dark Night of the Soul though, how long do you want to wait until you turn the light on?

When you finally decide to turn it on you will kick yourself: you were here all along.
 
What is an adept?

Occult powers are not impressive, it is a childish pursuit - it simply means you are still involved with the other. If there is no one to impress, what will be the point?

You remain in duality, you are basically pursuing the material world still.

A master is one that brings you home.

Whatsoever is attained, if you do not come home you remain in samsara - it is irrelevant what plain you are born into, still there will be suffering.

Exit the wheel, leave the nonsense behind and leap.

Trust existence to catch you.

You cannot save yourself, you can only allow salvation/liberation/freedom to happen.

How can you be an adept at what you are? Tell me this, because I am curious.

Occult powers are simply the exercise of will, what is impressive? You manipulate the world around you every moment, you just don't believe you can do things which seem miraculous. You do not understand you are the creative force, yet when this realization happens you realize things are already as they must be. Then why interfere? It is egoistic to want this, you have attained nothing but party tricks.

What is impressive is the courage to trust, the courage to risk your very being for the ultimate.

Everything else is worthless.
 
Oneness is absolute, you are eternally alone.

The dream is an escape, an occult adept has simply learned it is his dream, but still he remains in the dream.

Wake up!

That is what Buddha means, awakened.

What is the point of affecting the dream? It is still unreal.

It is not even fun, when you are awakened you will see how dangerous this can be. It is why Buddha has spoken of silencing the mind, for whatsoever you will happens - even random thought identification which is violent, it really occurs.

Why will you pursue this when you understand things are already how they must be?

If this is an adept for you, it is a pathetic definition.

Come home, stop fueling the ego.
 
It's nice to feel like we're already there, Lunitik. Welcome to Christianity.

Oh wait, that's a different thread. ;)

In answer to your question, tell me what you do for a living. Let's start there.
Describe in simple terms WHAT YOU DO for a living. If you think you do that job perfectly, you're not an adept, you're delusional.

Likewise, the first indication that a person isn't finished with her evolution, is her need to constantly point out to others that she thinks she IS.

Again, welcome to ... HUMANITY. WE are imperfect. YOU are part of WE. If you are perfect, I'm Abraham Lincoln. If you are enlightened, or a Buddha, or a Master, I am Albert Einstein. And if YOU don't have a whole lotta damn perfecting to do, this business of BECOMING ADEPT ...

... well, I'm Eleanor Roosevelt.

How did you turn me into all of these people all of a sudden? WOW; it's weird.

Adept does indeed mean Adept AT ... and the at is, BEING HUMAN.

When you have perfect that ART, skill and SCIENCE, THEN presume to lecture us on what it's like "being there."

In the meantime, and I mean this as no offense, you are CHAUNCEY, the Gardener, and while I quite recognize that you are perhaps good at what you do ... you are no adept. Do you garden?
 
I stand here holding the door open for you.

I cannot make you walk through it though.
 
AndrewX said:
It's nice to feel like we're already there, Lunitik. Welcome to Christianity.

Oh wait, that's a different thread. ;)
Click to expand...

There is no I here.

There is no feeling of accomplishment.

It is simply foolish to fall into the trap of samsara, how can you be prideful that you have stopped being idiotic?

No, I call you home because I know its bliss and wish all could know it.

I guess it is easier to believe in dead people than alive ones?

I do not ask for belief though, I simply say melt into the One, dissolve into truth. It is the only way, then you will know yourself, there will be no need for belief and theory.

You are that oneness, why remain limited?
 
Lunitik, you are a nuisance. This is called TROLLING.

No one likes it. Please stop. You enjoy hijacking threads by the score, and you add nothing.

We can put a stop to it, however. Specifically, and pending anything further, I'm ignoring you.
You had this coming weeks ago, and I've finally lost patience with it.

My apologies in advance to anyone else still trying to deal with this, or reading any of the dozens of threads at Interfaith where this is going on.

It really is distracting. Thanks.
 
Now you will understand Jesus's words that "I am the truth, the light and the way", you will understand his words that "I and my father are one". You will know that the Kingdom of God is within, and you will throne yourself, Michael. It will be your own truth, not some dead scripture or text, every scripture describes this if you have eyes to see.

Of course you do not though, you follow a woman that has become a Tibetan mystic, yet you do not know why Dalai Lama says this will be his last birth. You do not know what all the Tibetan hierarchy has realized in the last 50 years. Blavatsky was not alive for Maitreya's coming, Annie and Leadbeater tried to cause his coming themselves. The World Teacher has come and gone and you are stuck on a woman that studied extensively but realized nothing for herself.

You cannot write as much as she did if you have realized truth, what will you even say about it? You will be speechless, you will look at all attempts to say it and realize no words can do it justice. This is who you have chosen to follow though, theorists. What is worse, you are unwilling to see truth due to those theorists.

This is the problem with traditions, truth is a living thing the tradition just clings to a dead corpse. You are truth, stop covering it with the false.
 
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