the resurrection of the body & the life of the world-to-come

[salishan]

he's in a better place
some person (not a Quaker) says , shaking my hand

& i have to wonder where this notion comes from

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

when u die , u "go to heaven"
(or to someplace not nearly so nice)
is the assumption of American Christianity
& is an assumption that dates (at least) from 14th century Europe
(from The Divine Comedy of Dante Alighieri)

i am not interested in debating the merits of this assumption
(at least , not at this time) but
i am curious as to when (& how) this notion originated
this notion that ...

after a good person dies , they go right up to heaven
(a "good Christian" , anyway)

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

this notion does not appear to have existed
for (at least) the first 6 centuries of Christianity

resurrection will occur , only at the end of time when
the secular kingdom of man will be replaced by the kingdom of Gyd
& all persons will be raised up from the grave to be judged

this resurrection -> judgment -> paradise (on earth) at the end of time
appears to be a Zoroastrian notion which Judaism picks up
(during or after the Babylonian captivity) & becomes linked to
to a Judaic "messianic" eschatology supported by some Jewish sects
(the "followers of the way" / i.e. Jesus-sect , being one of these)

the expectation is that when the Messiah arrives &
the kingdom of Gyd defeats the kingdom of man
"time" (as we know it) ends , then the righteous
will be bodily-raised from the grave & paradise on earth will ensue

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

4th century-ce

we look for the resurrection of the dead
& the life of the world-to-come

5th century-ce

the resurrection of the body
& the life-everlasting

6th century-ce

at whose coming , all men will rise again with their bodies
& shall give account for their own works
& they that have done good shall go to life-everlasting
& they that have done evil into everlasting fire

the "world-to-come" of the Nicene Creed (the revised 381-ce version)
is a direct translation of the Jewish phrase "olam haba"
& is a reference to the messianic era following Gyd's victory

also , "the resurrection of the body" of the Apostle's Creed
refers to a debate in both Jewish & Christian circles in the 1st century-ce
concerning whether a person's corpse will , literally
(like Ezekiel's "plain of dry bones") reanimate (or not)
(Paul of Tarsus arguing that u get a "new body" in the world-to-come
Paul in the end losing this argument to the later Christian mainstream
losing to those authors of the 3 Creeds who each believe
that "all men will rise again with their bodies")
or concerning
whether a blind-man will be raised-up from the grave , blind or with sight ?
whether a lame-man will be raised-up from the grave , lame or walking-easy ?
(Babylonian Talmud Sanhedrin 91b , also Midrash Rabbah Ecclesiastes 1.6)

what is so startling to Gentile & Jewish Christians in the 1st century, is the notion that
a deceased-individual is in-the-grave (in Hades) for 3 days then is returned to earth
(resurrected)
this is something which is supposed to happen only at the end of time
no Jew (before Jesus) is reputed to have been bodily-raised by Gyd from the dead
so that this "Jesus-rising" seems to be a sign , to those hoping-for the coming Apocalypse
that the last days are near

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

& this expectation , for
the resurrection of the body & the life of the world-to-come , is a
core-belief expressed in the Nicene Creed & Apostles Creed & Athanasian Creed
(at least in Western Christendom) thru (at least) the 6th century-ce

i am curious if anyone knows
when this belief in teleportation to "a better place"
at the end of time becomes (instead)
(as with Jesus) an event which
transpires shortly after a person's death ... ?

(curious , historically
when this shift-in-thinking about the timing of "the afterlife" happens
& why this shift occurs ... ? ? )

 

[donnann]

he's in a better place
some person (not a Quaker) says , shaking my hand

& i have to wonder where this notion comes from

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

when u die , u "go to heaven"
(or to someplace not nearly so nice)
is the assumption of American Christianity
& is an assumption that dates (at least) from 14th century Europe
(from The Divine Comedy of Dante Alighieri)

i am not interested in debating the merits of this assumption
(at least , not at this time) but
i am curious as to when (& how) this notion originated
this notion that ...

after a good person dies , they go right up to heaven
(a "good Christian" , anyway)

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

this notion does not appear to have existed
for (at least) the first 6 centuries of Christianity

resurrection will occur , only at the end of time when
the secular kingdom of man will be replaced by the kingdom of Gyd
& all persons will be raised up from the grave to be judged

this resurrection -> judgment -> paradise (on earth) at the end of time
appears to be a Zoroastrian notion which Judaism picks up
(during or after the Babylonian captivity) & becomes linked to
to a Judaic "messianic" eschatology supported by some Jewish sects
(the "followers of the way" / i.e. Jesus-sect , being one of these)

the expectation is that when the Messiah arrives &
the kingdom of Gyd defeats the kingdom of man
"time" (as we know it) ends , then the righteous
will be bodily-raised from the grave & paradise on earth will ensue

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

4th century-ce5th century-ce6th century-cethe "world-to-come" of the Nicene Creed (the revised 381-ce version)
is a direct translation of the Jewish phrase "olam haba"
& is a reference to the messianic era following Gyd's victory

also , "the resurrection of the body" of the Apostle's Creed
refers to a debate in both Jewish & Christian circles in the 1st century-ce
concerning whether a person's corpse will , literally
(like Ezekiel's "plain of dry bones") reanimate (or not)
(Paul of Tarsus arguing that u get a "new body" in the world-to-come
Paul in the end losing this argument to the later Christian mainstream
losing to those authors of the 3 Creeds who each believe
that "all men will rise again with their bodies")
or concerning
whether a blind-man will be raised-up from the grave , blind or with sight ?
whether a lame-man will be raised-up from the grave , lame or walking-easy ?
(Babylonian Talmud Sanhedrin 91b , also Midrash Rabbah Ecclesiastes 1.6)

what is so startling to Gentile & Jewish Christians in the 1st century, is the notion that
a deceased-individual is in-the-grave (in Hades) for 3 days then is returned to earth
(resurrected)
this is something which is supposed to happen only at the end of time
no Jew (before Jesus) is reputed to have been bodily-raised by Gyd from the dead
so that this "Jesus-rising" seems to be a sign , to those hoping-for the coming Apocalypse
that the last days are near

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

& this expectation , for
the resurrection of the body & the life of the world-to-come , is a
core-belief expressed in the Nicene Creed & Apostles Creed & Athanasian Creed
(at least in Western Christendom) thru (at least) the 6th century-ce

i am curious if anyone knows
when this belief in teleportation to "a better place"
at the end of time becomes (instead)
(as with Jesus) an event which
transpires shortly after a person's death ... ?

(curious , historically
when this shift-in-thinking about the timing of "the afterlife" happens
& why this shift occurs ... ? ? )

It was originally suppose to be a natural progression to a higher state but the fall occurred so the spirit and soul were sealed away from the body only being filtered through on a senses level to the body. I believe the progression is still taking place at the spirit and soul and body levels so that when the final resurrection takes place we will be crystal beings. I believe changes are also taking place in the heavenly universe where the bodies souls and spirits are not separate but they are not crystal beings yet and why prophecies talk about not just a new earth but also a new heaven. I believe one day all will reside in one big universe so there is no separation between these two universes. The third place the crystal place is beyond the heavenly universe and is the place of creation itself. Where all elements are one at the source and this is where this crystal union comes from.

 

[Thomas]

Hi Salishan —

... is an assumption that dates (at least) from 14th century Europe (from The Divine Comedy of Dante Alighieri)

Dante has a lot to answer for, I'll grant you, but I think you're giving him too much credit here. The Orthodox Patriarchates share a common eschatalogical vision with the West, and they've never heard of him!

this notion does not appear to have existed
for (at least) the first 6 centuries of Christianity

What? It's in Scripture for a start (cf Luke 23). Six centuries is a lot of ground to cover in one stride — have you read the Fathers on the question?

resurrection will occur, only at the end of time when the secular kingdom of man will be replaced by the kingdom of Gyd & all persons will be raised up from the grave to be judged

I think you might be confusing the teachings on the General Resurrection with the teaching on man's immediate eschatology? They're two different things.

also, "the resurrection of the body" of the Apostle's Creed refers to a debate ...

Which is still open, as it should be, because no-one knows, do they? Nor will they, until it happens. It would make more sense to refer to contemporary theological ideas about the resurrection, as they're just as valid.

what is so startling to Gentile & Jewish Christians in the 1st century, is the notion that a deceased-individual is in-the-grave (in Hades) for 3 days then is returned to earth (resurrected)

Understandably so.

... this is something which is supposed to happen only at the end of time no Jew (before Jesus) is reputed to have been bodily-raised by Gyd from the dead ...

I don't think you can be that emphatic. There's the question of Elijah 2 Kings 2:11-12, the widow's son in 1 Kings 17:21-22, the Shunammite woman's son in 2 Kings 4:32-37...

i am curious if anyone knows when this belief in teleportation to "a better place" at the end of time becomes (instead) (as with Jesus) an event which transpires shortly after a person's death ... ?

This is not an either/or argument, rather both views were (and are) held by Christians (although not all denominations) without contradiction.

I would say up until recent history ... once freedom of religious expression got underway in America, then all manner of denominations sprang up.

Certainly the Early Church had no problem with holding both ideas, and nor should you assume the ideas solidified as late as you suppose. Remember we (by which I mean the Catholic West) share the same eschatological vision as the Orthodox East on the issues raised, and they have no idea who Dante was, and he certainly does not speak authoritatively for them (any more than he does for the West).

The 'with Christ now' stems from Scripture, especially John and Paul, although might not be immediately discernable, without the commentary of Tradition.

God bless,

Thomas

 

[salishan]

Thomas
exquisite creature

returning to earth from the realm of the dead
then proceeding from earth (like Jesus) straight to heaven

There's the question of Elijah 2 Kings 2:11-12,
the widow's son in 1 Kings 17:21-22,
the Shunammite woman's son in 2 Kings 4:32-37...

the widow's son & Shunammite woman's son
are miraculous healing-acts (performed by Elijah & Elisha , respectively
acts of "bringing the dead back-to-life" , acts Jesus himself performed 3 times)
(these youngsters from Kings did not , soon-after revival
shoot straight-up-to-heaven)

regarding the flaming chariot & horses which snatched Elijah ?
i don't know what to say
(maybe the tornado dropped Elijah's cadaver upon some inaccessible mountain-top
which the "50 strong men" could not get-at )

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

the idea of a person going straight-to-heaven , right after they die
does not appear to be on anyone's mental radar
within the Judaic/Hellenistic conceptual-worlds of the 1st century
(rather , perceiving oneself at death
as going just to the grave , just to Sheol/Hades)

What? It's in Scripture for a start (cf Luke 23).

this biblical fact is a strange anomaly , isn't it ?
(Jesus to the repentant-thief beside him , at Golgotha) ...

truly i say to u
today
u shall be with me in Paradise

NEWS AT 11
the first 3 persons in history whom Gyd permits to
punch their tickets & board the train to heaven , are
Elijah & Jesus & oh , ... get this
the third is some nameless 1st-century common-criminal

(who-the-hell is this guy ?
that he should cut-in-line in front of Moses & Abraham ? )

there is controversy around the translation of this line-of-dialog from Luke
where do u put the comma ? , before or after the word "today" ?

most Bibles put the comma before "today"
truly i say to u , ... today u shall be with me in Paradise
which is a wonderfully dramatic reading of the line ! , but
is a reading , woefully lacking in logic (remember , that
Jesus has a full-plate ahead of him , got to descend into hell
for 3 days & 3 nights , with his ascent to heaven still a few weeks off)

the correct reading of the line is probably the one with comma after "today"
truly i say to u today ... , u shall be with me in Paradise
which is the wording found in 2 Syriac bibles & the Jehovah's-Witnesses scripture
be seeing u , pal
when the Final Trumpet blasts
(the guy's got to stay in his grave
wait-in-line like the rest)

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

(& Thomas , i apologize for my metaphors
i'm not trying to be facetious , i'm just trying to be plain)

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

but check it out , the word Paradise (above) is an interesting word
(it occurs less than a dozen times in the Bible)
pardes in Hebrew
paradeisos in Greek

both words derive from
pairi deaza from Eastern Old Iranian
meaning a "walled-enclosure" , specifically a
"temple garden"

in Mesopotamia & beyond , most city-states have
a large temple-complex for their patron-deity (not just an isolated Temple)
& within this temple-complex , there is almost always a
"temple garden" (typically consisting of fruit-trees) , walled-off from outsiders
& , aside from a priest & priestess who maintain the garden
no one is permitted inside the garden , because it is
the private refuge of the patron-deity , a place for her or him to relax

this pairi deaza is also meant to mirror the primordial agrarian-creation
mankind's first garden (& is likely the principal literary source-idea for
the Mesopotamian & the Hebrew versions of "the Garden of Eden"
as described in the Enuma Elish & in Genesis 2)

in later (more secular/kingship) times , "Paradise"
(pardesu in Akkadian , pardaysa in Aramaic)
refers (instead) to a "royal park" (the exclusive wildlife preserve of a king)

"Paradise" is an attractive recreation site , the kind of place a king might also
wish to build his tomb , build his "eternal resting-place"

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Thomas
correct me if i'm wrong , but

in the folk-eschatology of Classic Judaism
(the Judaism of the time of Jesus)
the thing which Jews call "Paradise" is not heaven

well , not "7th Heaven" anyway
Paradise (instead) is equated with "3rd Heaven"
3rd Heaven may be found above earth , or below earth
or on the same plane as earth but invisible
(it's unclear which)

in the Pseudepigrapha Apocalypse of Moses , Paradise (3rd Heaven)
is where Adam is buried , to await the resurrection of the dead
(to wait there with everyone else , but Adam has one of the best plots)
Abraham & Isaac & Jacob & Moses & Aaron & all the kings of Judah are there
Paradise is a pleasant-place where they can rest in peace , while
they await the Last Trumpet

Paradise is a kind of waiting-room at a train-station
(a vast , green & luxurious waiting-area
because it may be awhile before the train arrives)

Paradise is a (well-kept) cemetery

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according to the Pseudepigrapha Book of the Secrets of Enoch , this
3rd Heaven exists between corruptibility & incorruptibility
(2 Enoch 8:5)

in Paul of Tarsus's eschatology
the train to Heaven is near
& this train-station waiting-room (i.e. Paradise)
must be the place where each person
(eager with ticket in-hand but ticket not yet punched)
anticipates the moment when they are called
to slip-out-of their old (corruptible) body &
to don their new (incorruptible) one

what i am saying , dear brothers and sisters
is that our flesh & blood bodies cannot inherit the Kingdom of Gyd
these perishable-bodies of ours cannot keep-pace-with what lasts-forever

behold, i tell you a mystery !
we will not all pass-away
but we will all be transfigured !

in a moment
in the twinkling of an eye , at the Last Trumpet
the trumpet will sound , & the dead
will be raised to live, imperishable

& we will be changed

but it appears to me , Thomas

(with the exception of Elijah & Jesus)​

nobody jumps the gun ! !

 

[salishan]

Thomas
exquisite creature

wanted to thank u for u'r lengthy answer

though what i was looking for (with my original question) are just two things
1. a year
2. a couple documents to corroborate the date

(i fear u have missed the simple character of my question)

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like many fellow messianic Jews , Paul of Tarsus
expects the "world to come" (olam haba) to arrive in his lifetime
(the New Age , when Gyd establishes his kingdom on earth)

but years pass , & nothing
his converts in Corinth & Thessalonica & elsewhere begin to worry
(since their fellow congregants are beginning to die-off)
& they complain to Paul of Tarsus of their unease, &
Paul of Tarsus answers them , with
(& here , u gotta feel for the guy ! )
his same old song & dance , but now more passionately spoken

And now, dear brothers and sisters, we want you to know what will happen to the believers who have passed-away so you will not grieve like people who have no hope. For since we believe that Jesus died and was raised to life again, we also believe that when Jesus returns, Gyd will bring back with him the believers who have died. We tell you this directly from the Lord: We who are still living when the Lord returns will not meet him ahead of those who have previously passed-away.

For the Lord himself will come down from heaven with a commanding shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the blast from Gyd's trumpet. First, the Christians who have died-in-Christ will rise-first from their graves. Then, together with them, we who are still-alive and remain atop the earth will also be caught up in this cyclone & meet our advancing Lord in the clouds. Then we-all will be with the Lord forever.

So encourage each other with these words.

after Paul of Tarsus himself dies (circa 65ce)
church leaders , like Ignatius or Justin or Tertullian
keep expecting the imminent arrival of Gyd's kingdom-on-earth
(waiting unconcernedly , at least into the 3rd century-ce)

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the way i picture this , Thomas
is faithful Corinthians & Thessalonians dying & waiting in their graves for decades
(for centuries) , waiting for that Final Trumpet to blast

Jesus the Galilean rose to Heaven after 3 days in the grave (3 days in "Hades")
& yes , this demonstration by Gyd of his intentions
is an unambiguous down-payment on the promised "world to come"
(the promised kingdom of Gyd , soon to begin its reign on planet earth)

but Thomas
if Paul of Tarsus is correct , then
after u (u'r-self) personally die
(tomorrow or in 80 years)
u (too) will lie in the grave , waiting
(& waiting & waiting)
till that Final Trumpet sounds

only then will u see Heaven
(only then will u enroll in heaven's social-architecture
once it is instituted , this-time not just up-above
but down-here on planet earth)

(if Paul of Tarsus is correct)
yes ?

u see this as u'r destiny ?

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is this , Thomas
what Catholics still believe ?

(i know that this is what the Anglican Bible-scholar
N.T. Wright believes)

or did this belief change after Tertullian ?
or change later still , after the Nicene & Apostles & Athenasian creeds become catechism ?
(after these establish Paul's vivid picture of the "world to come" as the official litany of the Church ? )
or did this belief change after Augustine ? or after Thomas Aquinas ?

what year (or century) did good Catholics start-in thinking ...
that
a good & faithful person goes straight to heaven when they die ?
(takes the Express Train without delay) ? ?

(or is this today , an open or unspoken question in the Church ? ) ...

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(i have no sinister agenda , here
it's just an historical oddity to me , the difference in
attitude toward the afterlife
between 1,961-years-ago & today)

i'm pretty ignorant of Church history , Thomas
i'm just looking for a date-certain !

 

[Thomas]

Hi Salishan —

the idea of a person going straight-to-heaven, right after they die does not appear to be on anyone's mental radar within the Judaic/Hellenistic conceptual-worlds of the 1st century ... this biblical fact is a strange anomaly, isn't it?

I think Christ and His message was well off the radar of the contemporary world.

The Bible wasn't written in a day, and the dogmas and doctrines of the Church were not handed over, fully-formed, at Pentecost, they emerge 'as the sedimentation of the witness and beliefs of the living community' as someone said, rather poetically.

The Hebrew Scriptures evolved in just that way. The literalists like to throw up the issues between the Elhoist, the Jahwist, the Priestly and the Deuteronomic ... those that reads with the eye of the spirit see the unfolding coming to know God.

The same can be said of all the great sacra doctrina of the world ... perhaps Islam alone claims to be a one-off transmission, entire and complete, but then at what point was the scribe following Mohammed, and writing down, and cross-checking, everything he said?

The nature of Revelation is not that every 'i' is dotted, every 't' crossed, as some like to suppose. Rather the reality is that it takes shape, it's an organic development. God does not reveal Himself that man can sit back on his arse (not quite so poetic, but I hope you get my drift).

the first 3 persons in history whom Gyd permits to punch their tickets & board the train to heaven , are Elijah & Jesus & oh , ... get this the third is some nameless 1st-century common-criminal

Are you sure? I would rather say they are the ones we know of ...

there is controversy around the translation of this line-of-dialog from Luke where do u put the comma... ?

Was there ever a comma there?

... but is a reading, woefully lacking in logic (remember, that Jesus has a full-plate ahead of him, got to descend into hell
for 3 days & 3 nights, with his ascent to heaven still a few weeks off)

Who's logic? Not Christian logic.

If Jesus is indeed the Second Person of the Holy Trinity, then He was never 'apart' from God, nor not in heaven ... so the 'correct' reading of the text is, I suggest, according to the understanding of the Tradition that wrote it.

Indeed, put the comma where you like, it can still be disputed, so really it's much ado about nothing ... which is indicative in itself, methinks.

but check it out, the word Paradise (above) is an interesting word...

Indeed it is.

But the point is, surely, the Second Coming indicates the arrival of Paradise on earth, not the emergence of Paradise as such. So Paradise exists, and always has done, and this was where man was placed, but from whence he was exiled, but, by the Passion of Christ, was reconciled to the Father (Paul again).

... in the folk-eschatology of Classic Judaism
(the Judaism of the time of Jesus) the thing which Jews call "Paradise" is not heaven well, not "7th Heaven" anyway Paradise (instead) is equated with "3rd Heaven" ...

OK.

Remember also that in Christian eschatology, the state between now and the Resurrection is an intermediate state. Look at N.T. Wright — he believes the Resurrection is when the real work of being human begins, not when it ends ...

in Paul of Tarsus's eschatology ...

In the eschatology of John, of the anonymous author of Hebrews, of Peter (cf 2 Peter 1:4) and of Paul, the vision is one of participation in the Divine Nature. Paul speaks of the community as 'one body' in Christ, of a 'nuptial union' (cf Ephesians), and that the Christian is already dead, and living in Christ.
"neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord” (Romans 8:38-39) ... and I suggest that includes space and time, and thus the grave.

God bless,

Thomas

 

[Etu Malku]

Going to heaven or hell has its start in ancient Egypt (Field of Reeds or Duat)

 

[Thomas]

Hi Salishan —

Jesus the Galilean rose to Heaven after 3 days in the grave (3 days in "Hades") & yes, this demonstration by Gyd of his intentions is an unambiguous down-payment on the promised "world to come" (the promised kingdom of Gyd , soon to begin its reign on planet earth)

Well that may be what you believe, but I don't think that's what the ancient communities believed.

The community saw the Passion as the overcoming of death and the forgiveness of sin and the reconciliation of man with God. The rending of the veil of the temple speaks of the end of the formal separation of God and his people, and speaks of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit in the soul through the Sacrament of Baptism. In the same way, every Christian is nailed to the Cross in Christ through the Sacrament of the Eucharist.

We are the Pascal offering, that's what we say in the Liturgy of the Eucharist at every mass. He the head, we the members, one bread, offered to God the Father.

In effect, Jesus said "Unto thee I commend my spirit (and everyone else with me)" ... that's why the Risen Christ still bears the marks of the wounds ... but then we're getting into deep tradition.

if Paul of Tarsus is correct, then after u (u'r-self) personally die (tomorrow or in 80 years) u (too) will lie in the grave, waiting
(& waiting & waiting) till that Final Trumpet sounds

That's not what he says though, is it?

I suggest that after I die, I enter some intermediate state between here and the Resurrection, at which point the work begins in earnest ... as per N.T. Wright, if you like. What I don't believe is sitting round on clouds playing harps.

only then will u see Heaven (only then will u enroll in heaven's social-architecture once it is instituted, this-time not just up-above but down-here on planet earth)

Again, why? I would rather assume I will take my place 'up there' until work commences 'down here', rather than waiting 'down here' for the celestial highway to arrive, as it were ... that makes more sense to me, according to the message of Scripture.

what year (or century) did good Catholics start-in thinking ... that a good & faithful person goes straight to heaven when they die? (takes the Express Train without delay) ? ? (or is this today , an open or unspoken question in the Church ? ) ...

Straight away, I reckon ... reflecting that 'good and faithful' usually don't get involved in semantic discussions about the placement of commas. Suffice to say there's enough in Scripture to present the case for an immediate transit. Paul seemed to think so ... so did John ... but both were aware that there would be, at some point in the undisclosed future, a general resurrection, and then everything would change.

... At what point did theologians work out the argument surrounding the ideas? Depends how 'worked out' you want it to be. We're still discussing it, as no-one knows, but nothing in the most contemporary theology refutes the theology of Irenaeus, for example.

i'm just looking for a date-certain !

That kind of thing is probably open to scholarly dispute. Well respected theologians highlight the differences of views, outlooks and opinions.

God bless,

Thomas

 

[salishan]

Thomas
exquisite creature

i am talking , here
about a picture in my head , from my reading
not a "belief"

(i have no personal stake , one way or the other)

Suffice to say there's enough in Scripture to present the case for an immediate transit. Paul seemed to think so ... so did John ...

i too have read Paul & read John
(no doubt not as often nor as carefully as u)
but i recall no passage which would substantiate
anyone taking the express-train straight to heaven , immediately after death
(nor any passages in N.T. Wright , for that matter)

can u point me to definitive verses ?
(thanks)

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... nothing in the most contemporary theology refutes the theology of Irenaeus ...

thanks for the tip
i haven't read any Irenaeus , till now

short version of Irenaeus' eschatology ...

1. ... heretics, despising the handiwork of God, ... affirm that immediately upon their death they shall pass above the heavens ... they know nothing as to the plan of the resurrection?

2. the souls of His {Jesus'} disciples also ... shall go away into the invisible place allotted to them by God, and there remain until the resurrection, awaiting that event; then receiving their bodies, and rising in their entirety, that is bodily, just as the Lord {Jesus} arose, they shall come thus into the presence of God.

Against Heresies (Book V, Chapter 31)​

it appears that , circa 200ce
there are (in fact) "Christians" who believed that
the righteous go straight-to-heaven when they die

"heretics"
(presumably Gnostic heretics ? )

correct me if i'm wrong , Thomas
but Irenaeus' eschatology is virtually identical to
the picture i have painted (in my above posts)

(which makes u'r "straight-to-heaven" expectation
a pipedream like that of the "heretics" )

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here is a longer version of Irenaeus' argument ...

1.

... For the heretics, despising the handiwork of God, ... affirm that immediately upon their death they shall pass above the heavens ...

... they know nothing as to the plan of the resurrection? For ... if these things are as they say, the Lord {Jesus} Himself, in whom they profess to believe, did not rise again upon the third day; but immediately upon His expiring on the cross, undoubtedly departed on high, leaving His body to the earth.

But the case was, that for three days He dwelt in the place where the dead were ... And the Lord {Jesus} Himself says, "As Jonas remained three days and three nights in the whale's belly, so shall the Son of man be in the heart of the earth." {Matthew 11:40}

2.

If, then, the Lord {Jesus} observed the law of the dead, that He might become the first-begotten from the dead, and tarried until the third day "in the lower parts of the earth;" {Ephesians 4:9} then afterwards rising in the flesh, so that He even showed the print of the nails to His disciples, He thus ascended to the Father;

-- [if all these things occurred, as I say], how must these men {heretics} not be put to confusion, who allege that "the lower parts" refer to this world of ours, but that their inner man, leaving the body here, ascends into the super-celestial place?

For as the Lord {Jesus} "went away in the midst of the shadow of death," where the souls of the dead were, yet afterwards arose in the body, and after the resurrection was taken up [into heaven], it is manifest that the souls of His disciples also, upon whose account the Lord {Jesus} underwent these things, shall go away into the invisible place allotted to them by God, and there remain until the resurrection, awaiting that event; then receiving their bodies, and rising in their entirety, that is bodily, just as the Lord {Jesus} arose, they shall come thus into the presence of God.

"For no disciple is above the Master {Jesus}, but every one that is perfect shall be as his Master {Jesus}." {Luke 6:40} As our Master {Jesus}, therefore, did not at once depart, taking flight [to heaven], but awaited the time of His resurrection prescribed by the Father, which had been also shown forth through Jonas, and rising again after three days was taken up [to heaven]; so ought we also to await the time of our resurrection prescribed by God and foretold by the prophets, and so, rising, be taken up, as many as the Lord {Jesus} shall account worthy of this [privilege].

Against Heresies (Book V, Chapter 31)​

very shrewd
this argument-by-parallelism
isn't it ? !

but very sound reasoning
(i'd hate to be compelled to erect
as solid of an argument , opposing it ! )

 

[radarmark]

Ah, my friends salishan and thomas, hello!

For what it is worth, Thomas, I believe s is correct in pointing out he (unlike I) is well within the Irenaean tradition in 5.31.2. To wit:

"As our Master, therefore, did not at once depart, taking flight [to heaven], but awaited the time of His resurrection prescribed by the Father, which had been also shown forth through Jonas, and rising again after three days was taken up [to heaven]; so ought we also to await the time of our resurrection prescribed by Godd and foretold by the prophetss, and so, rising, be taken up, as many as the Lord shall account worthy of this [privilege]. "

 

[donnann]

Ah, my friends salishan and thomas, hello!

For what it is worth, Thomas, I believe s is correct in pointing out he (unlike I) is well within the Irenaean tradition in 5.31.2. To wit:

"As our Master, therefore, did not at once depart, taking flight [to heaven], but awaited the time of His resurrection prescribed by the Father, which had been also shown forth through Jonas, and rising again after three days was taken up [to heaven]; so ought we also to await the time of our resurrection prescribed by Godd and foretold by the prophetss, and so, rising, be taken up, as many as the Lord shall account worthy of this [privilege]. "

Do you believe in the rapture?

 

[radarmark]

As far as I can tell, this thread so far has nothing about it.

That being said, iy by "rapture" (in common, if not precisely correct, terms) one usually is referring to the kind of pre-millienial and pre-tribulation myth created by the Plymouth Puritan Mathers and Irving.

If this is what you are asking about not just no, but h-e-double-toothpicks no.

I believe in a general on-going, present resurrection.

 

[Thomas]

Actually, I think the idea of the immediate transit of the soul to God is there before Christianity.

"But the souls of the just are in the hand of God, and the torment of death shall not touch them. In the sight of the unwise they seemed to die: and their departure was taken for misery: And their going away from us, for utter destruction: but they are in peace. And though in the sight of men they suffered torments, their hope is full of immortality. Afflicted in few things, in many they shall be well rewarded: because God hath tried them, and found them worthy of himself. As gold in the furnace he hath proved them, and as a victim of a holocaust he hath received them, and in time there shall be respect had to them"
Wisdom 3:1-6 (emphasis mine)
This book dates from the 1-2nd century BC, written in Greek, evidently with an awareness of Plato and the Stoics, and considered non-canonical by Rabbinical Judaism. Nevertheless, here is evidence of the idea of the transitus. The last verse, in my italics, could then refer to events after the General Resurrection.

And here from the Epistle to the Corinthians of Clement of Rome (c95AD):
"Peter and Paul, Apostles and Martyrs
... Let us have the good Apostles before our eyes. Peter through wicked jealousy endured not one or two hardships but many, and after having thus borne witness went on to the place of glory which was his due... (Paul) then passed out of the world and went on to the holy place, having proved himself the greatest pattern of endurance. With these men of holy life was assembled a great host of the elect... " (IX, vv-vi)

And Irenaeus:
"... The Lord restored us to friendship through his incarnation, becoming the ‘mediator between God and man.’ On our behalf he propitiated the Father, against whom we had sinned, and cancelled our disobedience by his obedience, restoring us to fellowship with our Maker and submission to him."
Adversus Haereses, v. xvii. ι

"The Lord leads into the Paradise of Life those who obey his teaching, ‘consummating in himself all things, things in heaven and things on earth.’ ‘Things in heaven’ are spiritual things, ‘things on earth’ refers to his dealings with man. He ‘consummated all things in himself’ by joining man to Spirit and placing Spirit in man. He himself became the source of Spirit, and he gives Spirit to be the source of man's life. For it is through Spirit that we see and hear and talk."
Adversus Haereses, v. xx. 2

"God (the Word) restored in himself man, his ancient handiwork, that he might do to death sin, strip death of its power and give life to man"
Ibid. in. xviii. 7

"Because of the grace of the Spirit which has been given us we come to be in him, and he in us; and since the Spirit is God's spirit it is reasonable that we, having the Spirit, should be considered to be ‘in God’ through the Spirit which has been given to us. Not that we come to be in the Father in the same way as the Son is in him. For the Son does not merely partake of the Spirit so as to come to be in the Father by reason of the Spirit: nor does he receive the Spirit, but rather he himself supplies it to all. And the Spirit does not unite the Son to the Father, but rather the Spirit receives from the Word. The Son is in the Father, as being his own Word and radiance; but we, apart from the Spirit, are alien and remote from God, and are united with the Godhead by participation in the Spirit; so that our being in the Father does not belong to us, but to the Spirit, which is in us and dwells in us."
Contra Arianos, iii. 24

Lots of the early Fathers to be had here

The Holy Spirit reveals and leads to the Son, the Son reveals and leads to the Father, this is directly from Scripture — without the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, the Son is not recognised for who He is, and without the Son, man cannot see or know the Father.

Contrary to what many will claim, belief in the Holy Trinity was there from the very beginning, and Divine Union is a Trinitarian operation ...

God bless,

Thomas

 

[donnann]

Actually, I think the idea of the immediate transit of the soul to God is there before Christianity.

"But the souls of the just are in the hand of God, and the torment of death shall not touch them. In the sight of the unwise they seemed to die: and their departure was taken for misery: And their going away from us, for utter destruction: but they are in peace. And though in the sight of men they suffered torments, their hope is full of immortality. Afflicted in few things, in many they shall be well rewarded: because God hath tried them, and found them worthy of himself. As gold in the furnace he hath proved them, and as a victim of a holocaust he hath received them, and in time there shall be respect had to them"
Wisdom 3:1-6 (emphasis mine)
This book dates from the 1-2nd century BC, written in Greek, evidently with an awareness of Plato and the Stoics, and considered non-canonical by Rabbinical Judaism. Nevertheless, here is evidence of the idea of the transitus. The last verse, in my italics, could then refer to events after the General Resurrection.

And here from the Epistle to the Corinthians of Clement of Rome (c95AD):
"Peter and Paul, Apostles and Martyrs
... Let us have the good Apostles before our eyes. Peter through wicked jealousy endured not one or two hardships but many, and after having thus borne witness went on to the place of glory which was his due... (Paul) then passed out of the world and went on to the holy place, having proved himself the greatest pattern of endurance. With these men of holy life was assembled a great host of the elect... " (IX, vv-vi)

And Irenaeus:
"... The Lord restored us to friendship through his incarnation, becoming the ‘mediator between God and man.’ On our behalf he propitiated the Father, against whom we had sinned, and cancelled our disobedience by his obedience, restoring us to fellowship with our Maker and submission to him."
Adversus Haereses, v. xvii. ι

"The Lord leads into the Paradise of Life those who obey his teaching, ‘consummating in himself all things, things in heaven and things on earth.’ ‘Things in heaven’ are spiritual things, ‘things on earth’ refers to his dealings with man. He ‘consummated all things in himself’ by joining man to Spirit and placing Spirit in man. He himself became the source of Spirit, and he gives Spirit to be the source of man's life. For it is through Spirit that we see and hear and talk."
Adversus Haereses, v. xx. 2

"God (the Word) restored in himself man, his ancient handiwork, that he might do to death sin, strip death of its power and give life to man"
Ibid. in. xviii. 7

"Because of the grace of the Spirit which has been given us we come to be in him, and he in us; and since the Spirit is God's spirit it is reasonable that we, having the Spirit, should be considered to be ‘in God’ through the Spirit which has been given to us. Not that we come to be in the Father in the same way as the Son is in him. For the Son does not merely partake of the Spirit so as to come to be in the Father by reason of the Spirit: nor does he receive the Spirit, but rather he himself supplies it to all. And the Spirit does not unite the Son to the Father, but rather the Spirit receives from the Word. The Son is in the Father, as being his own Word and radiance; but we, apart from the Spirit, are alien and remote from God, and are united with the Godhead by participation in the Spirit; so that our being in the Father does not belong to us, but to the Spirit, which is in us and dwells in us."
Contra Arianos, iii. 24

Lots of the early Fathers to be had here

The Holy Spirit reveals and leads to the Son, the Son reveals and leads to the Father, this is directly from Scripture — without the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, the Son is not recognised for who He is, and without the Son, man cannot see or know the Father.

Contrary to what many will claim, belief in the Holy Trinity was there from the very beginning, and Divine Union is a Trinitarian operation ...

God bless,

Thomas

The soul is multicolored light that is literally an essence that you usually can only feel on the senses level of the body. There are metaphyscial type realites to resurrection. The ancient symbol of the cross was a union symbol and was a process where the holy spirit came down and brought the body of the one prophecied about up and a process follows ending with the sealing of the body. The body still walking around is followed by another seal opening where the body goes from the sealed condition to a big giant spirit being then sealed back down again. This is a series of seal openings and bindings. Final resurrection is where the body goes to its origin and takes on its true form, size ect and goes where it belongs. There is a lot more detail to this. Any thoughts on this aspect of the miracle of resurrection?

 

[Princely]

That is a misunderstanding given to the wicked who choose not to revere the Lord and serve Him.The word of the Lord to the wicked is like a parable they cannot understand because they will not honor the prophets and the mouth of the Lord.

The Lord says this;

"Seek the Lord so you will live,says the Lord.

"Listen to Me, My people; And give ear to Me, O My nation: For instruction will proceed from Me, And I will make my justice arise as a light of the peoples".

Seek the Lord, all you humble of the earth, who have observed his law; Seek justice, seek humility; perhaps you may be sheltered on the day of the Lord’s anger.

I am the One who seeks and the One who knocks, the One who asks. Follow me and my fellow prophets.

The son of man is the resurrection and the life. I am son of man.

If you have faith in me you will do the works I do and serve the Lord by walking in His ways and spreading His truth.

I am the resurrection and the life, anyone who believes in me even though he died he will come to life and anyone who lives and believes in me will never die. Jesus and I are one in the Lord, He sent me.

 

[taijasi]

Q: "Rabbi, I hear these things you say. How may we serve you?"
A: "The Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve."

... "Oh."

What about St. Paul and his discussion of spiritual bodies? How does this fit in with the Resurrection?

And since I'm going to be cremated, what of the current, physical body - which shall be returned to its constituent elements [ashes, dust, etc.]?

 

[radarmark]

ROTFLOL! Very good, AndrewX. If one believes (as someone appears to) that the scripture is inerrant, this kinda stands as the untimate counterfactual example!

 

[Thomas]

What about St. Paul and his discussion of spiritual bodies? How does this fit in with the Resurrection?

The resurrected body be a triune of spirit/soul/body (note I did not say flesh) as the body is now, the distinction being that in our current lapsarian state the spirit is subject to the soul is subject to the flesh, whereas in the resurrection the proper order will be reconstituted as flesh subject to soul subject to spirit.

Bear in mind that 'human being' is superior to 'spiritual being', as the human being possesses a body as well as spirit, and thus all created nature is consummated in the human, whereas this is not the case with spiritual beings.

... just a thought ...

And since I'm going to be cremated, what of the current, physical body - which shall be returned to its constituent elements [ashes, dust, etc.]?

Well your current physical body will be reduced to ash ...

... bearing in mind that we now know that the body is not 'constant', that its cells, its molecular, its atomic and its sub-atomic constitution is in a constant if variable state of flux, then I would hazard to say this flux will be exponentially dynamic in its resurrected state, and our 'being in the world' will be significantly different than it is now.

But these are all speculations ...

... but then, according to science as presented by Marcus Chown, anything is possible!

God bless,

Thomas

 

[Snoopy]

Thomas! Incoming pm!

 

[donnann]

The resurrected body be a triune of spirit/soul/body (note I did not say flesh) as the body is now, the distinction being that in our current lapsarian state the spirit is subject to the soul is subject to the flesh, whereas in the resurrection the proper order will be reconstituted as flesh subject to soul subject to spirit.

Bear in mind that 'human being' is superior to 'spiritual being', as the human being possesses a body as well as spirit, and thus all created nature is consummated in the human, whereas this is not the case with spiritual beings.

... just a thought ...


Well your current physical body will be reduced to ash ...

... bearing in mind that we now know that the body is not 'constant', that its cells, its molecular, its atomic and its sub-atomic constitution is in a constant if variable state of flux, then I would hazard to say this flux will be exponentially dynamic in its resurrected state, and our 'being in the world' will be significantly different than it is now.

But these are all speculations ...

... but then, according to science as presented by Marcus Chown, anything is possible!

God bless,

Thomas

The body is suppose to be transformed into a spirit body: It will happen in a moment, in the blink of an eye, when the last trumpet is blown. For when the trumpet sounds, those who have died will be raised to live forever. And we who are living will also be transformed.
I do not understand why so many concentrate on death when the bible talks so much about the attainment of this new body. Doesnt faith in god lead you to attainment and belief in death instead of life show a lack of faith in god.