Hope for the Roman Catholic Church

for the Roman Catholic Church? Maybe.

With the prospect of female cardinals and allowing priests to marry, the Church may finally leave the Dark Ages ... and enter the 21st Century.

Don't count your chickens just yet. Still, thousands of choir boys throughout the world can at least pray.

I don't think there is any hope for the Roman church. It has no reputation left, and the ten horns of the beast, have already initiated the steps to begin to eat her flesh (Rev 17:16). Italy is ready to start taxing the properties of the church, and the Greece, Spain, etc. will not be far behind. As far as the Ireland clergy, the Inquisition Council, now bannered under a new name, has come down hard on that faction. My suggestion for the disenfrachised Irish clergy would be to simply follow Revelation 18:4, and simply "come out of her", meaning to leave the Roman church and escape her plagues which are to come.
 
If we are to consult Revelation as to whether or not there is hope for the Catholic Church, humanity or the Universe as we know it....there is no hope.

The book of Revelation should not be read literally by anyone....as it will only cause internal turmoil, not predict external reality.
 
If we are to consult Revelation as to whether or not there is hope for the Catholic Church, humanity or the Universe as we know it....there is no hope.

The book of Revelation should not be read literally by anyone....as it will only cause internal turmoil, not predict external reality.

I agree wil. Revelation is a strange book. It depicts a second Jesus. The Neo-Jesus is not the compassionate, loving, forgiving, healing, and feeding the poor, Jesus of Nazareth. Revelations depict a cruel, genocidal Jesus with an army of killer angels following a Cosmic Genghis Khan, Attila the Hun, Timor, and Hitler combined. The Revelations Jesus shows an evil military Jesus.

Revelations was a Horror Novel directed at the Roman Empire with metaphors for early Imperial Roman evil emperors.

A third possibility is that John of Patmos was a severely insane hermit living on an island and sampling too many mushrooms. His book has certain similarities to the Horror novels of H. P. Lovecraft. Indeed, Lovecraft, an atheist, may have used Revelations as a classic model of ancient horror writing. His Cthulhu Mythos and its "Old Ones" bear a striking similarity to the Old Testament God, JHWY or El. Lovecraft's "Elder Gods" may have been his way of saying that earlier non-Judaic Gods were not as cruel or as evil as JHWY (aka Cthulhu.)

Amergin
 
The Catholic Church of today will continue to crumble. Allowing priests to marry and ordaining women (and one day gay women) are progressive steps, but obviously much more must be done.

Eventually, I believe Christianity will redeem itself to the world, to humanity and before God. But not until the gold candlesticks are auctioned off to feed the poor, and not until the pomp & circumstance are traded for humble service of one's fellow man.

Watching the movie Brother Sun, Sister Moon is quite inspirational ... especially the scene where St. Francis finally gains his audience before the Pope, played by Sir Alec Guiness.

I have utmost faith in Roman Catholicism ... but not in some of the terrible corruption which long ago worked its way into the highest office of the Church, and penetrated the hearts & minds of many of the laity.

On that note, let me go find out whether that was a gunshot in my neighborhood ... or what. :eek:

edit: I guess a streetlight just exploded, or had some help. Kids will be kids. :p

Meanwhile, in America, Romney is pitching his soft toss to the Baptists, and conservative nutjobs left and right are appealing to the lowest common denominator of religious freaks & bass-ackwards, bigoted, homophobic racists ... all to try and take down the best President we've had since JFK. Obama might just be our last best Hope. If the hatemongers take over again, I worry we won't be able to turn things around in time ... to prevent something that really needs to be averted.
 
Perhaps there is a way for Catholics to figure out their own problems without other people dictating solutions to them? I used to think if I could change what other people believed, and then they would do the work of fixing the world for me. That thought came from what in the Bible calls the 'Pride of life' and is the lie and temptation of 'Satan' from the beginning, symbolized by the bad tree in the Garden. The good tree is humility, and it gives life. All the time we face the temptation to fix other people like we were gods instead of seeing them as equals; but we actually fix nothing. This site is an attempt to try not to eat the bad fruit anymore, and posters should cut the Catholics, Muslims and others some slack at least while they are posting here. It is a sacred space.
 
It's also, however, a place where we learn that what goes around, comes around. No exceptions.

Motes, planks ... and reminders, on occasion, that gods don't usually have difficulty recognizing the Divinity within each other.

Why? Because they've managed, somehow or another, to get past the `other' part of the occasion [equation, I must have meant].

Is it gone?

No, I don't think so.

But they've realized that if there's quite a bit of "empty space" between Friends ... then Goodness [or God, mileage may vary] knows ... it's Good to recognize each other, WHEN and as we meet. ;) :)

Humans, as it turns out, are still learning about this ... and that's part of why as yet we do not fully get along.

It's not inherently wrong to point out differences, but most of us prefer constructive criticism to mean-spirited attacks ... and we also tend to thrive better in an environment where Creativity and +Positivity+ are stressed more than negativity and tearing down.

So it's not that we do not know these things, is it? :eek:

Rather, it's that some of us just don't mind slapping others in the face with a wet FISH [name Him as you like] every now & then, forgetting that Christ/Love/Agape [stop anthroporphizing & concretizing the SPIRIT, we sometimes wish we - the hypocrits - could say] ... is every bit the soft cuddly Lamb/Ram of kids' imaginations and cloud-worlds ...

... plus the Leo/Lion of occasional ferocity [fiercely defending the downtrodden and *genuinely* oppressed - "Help Help, I'm being oppressed!":D] ...

... the Dragon of Wisdom ...

... the MAN in the street ...

... the Angels IN those clouds of Aries ...

... and so on, around the WHEEL.

But don't forget to take the BULL by the horns, lest He run you through with that Eye of Wisdom [braggarts can seldom see that Wisdom illuminates the mind otherwise empty of meaning, yet even the keen seem to forget that clashing cymbals and sounding gongs don't go over so well with young children {"the least of these"} or those still dependent on MILK].

God knows (don't they) ~ as every Mother shows ~ Breasts are just as important as THIGHS.

You see, Dream, et al, it isn't that I don't respect, or have a dear place in my heart for Christians, Catholics included. [Aha! A hint, above. Women may be another story, though I'm by no means a misogynist; rather, polarizations and dualities - *still* condition us, and here, I definitely mean ME.] So ...

It's just that SOME of them, at times (and I do mean sometimes more than others) ... make me a bit ashamed to call myself HUMAN.

Humility is fine, when and where it's needed, as is a stern approach, where injustice, hypocrisy or mean-spirited attacks take center stage.

So when a person steps boldly forward, perhaps momentarily losing his place in what some will understand as part jest, part cynical jab, part genuine observation ... it may be that the balancing act moves into the fore (comes to Light). One hopes, anyway.

By the same token, as some of us already have trodden on the Farther Shore, even if we may more often - TRY - to keep our feet firmly planted on this side, in assistance with the most important act of Bridge-Building, it should nonetheless be remembered that for every glimpse we are given of what WORK yet remains in this endeavor, so comes a natural repercussion from our Adversary - and ANY who might foolishly array themselves ... through ignorance, greed, superstition & fear ... on the wrong side of that fight.

What fight?

To get ALL of Humanity safely across the Bridge that was never built; and in this Great Labour, of *completing that Bridge*, some of have LONG known we are definitely and determinedly engaged.

So yes, we try to carry on, both humbly, quietly (when we are Wise) and in the Spirit of the Christ, which is TRUE LOVE ...

... yet you will see, if you do not already, what hypocrisy, what opposition, what petty squabbling occurs - perhaps as you are pointing out - often from within our own Camp, and this sometimes means just as readily from our own BROTHERS (and sisters), equally as from our as-yet too-human hearts.

I do not have the task, alone, or even in largest measure, of steering Catholicism - and thus CATHOLICS - away from the Abyss, and safely across the BRIDGE, that we are Bulding, much less safe-guarding their every step.

Thank Goodness for that.

Yet those to whom is it given to LEAD, often cannot, or do not, or seem to have forgotten HOW.

If I have forgotten, it is because PRACTICE makes PERFECT, and currently, I am very much somewhere in between.

It is NOT because I am wanting of the knowlege, or the basic Wisdom regarding the WAY.

Each step we take, our Responsibility increases, as does our Strength and Wisdom. The choice remains ours, whether with Love we shall apply ourselves in SERVICE ... or struggle, kicking against the pricks, remaining inward turned and selfish.

When the ego swells, and when all we like to do is tell others how right we are, and how wrong THEY are ... then we are due some `mirror time,' and as the Man always Taught: The answers are within. ;)

Oh my, what ever could He have meant? ;) :)

As always, Dream, thanks for the reminder.
I am you, and what I see is me.
As one progress, ALL of us gain.
 
I dunno, I just do not believe that disparaging others for what they define themselves to be does any good.

Inclusiveness and progress, I believe, imply acceptance of differences and the mutually beneficial discussion of those differences.

There is always a line between critcizing someone's opinion (which is open for public discussion) and someone's identity. I do not care to engage in the second.
 
If we are to consult Revelation as to whether or not there is hope for the Catholic Church, humanity or the Universe as we know it....there is no hope.

The book of Revelation should not be read literally by anyone....as it will only cause internal turmoil, not predict external reality.

The only turmoil would be to the denominational churches which do not heed its warnings. Of course, that is pretty inclusive.

The best one can do for those who reject Revelation is to just turn them to Daniel, which has a parallel revelation, using different parables. But then, to reject Revelation outright, if indeed it is the testimony of Yeshua, as stated within, then one may be simply wasting their time. In that case I, one who accepts Revelation as containing revelation, would point to Rev 22:11-12, "let the one who does wrong, still do wrong;....my reward is with me, to render to every man according to what he has done."
 
Well, the older churches (of which I am not part) of the East consider Revelation pretty much as wil does. There is also a strong tendency to see the Revelation as veiled and fulfilled prophecy, being a kind of camoflaged version of early church history.
 
If the Spirit of Love and Forgiveness (for those who have become somewhat melded to anthropomorhizations) can be increasingly demonstrated between ALL MEN ... there is some hope for the future of Christianity, Roman Catholicism included.

Otherwise, the crumbling remains shall simply be used in the construction of the New Church ... as that Church knows no divisions between race and religion, creed, caste or color.

Christ's Church is the Spirit of Inclusivity itself. Anything less - is *not* Christ, or Christianity.

It's truly that simple. ;) :)
 
Amergin said:
Lovecraft, an atheist, may have used Revelations as a classic model of ancient horror writing. His Cthulhu Mythos and its "Old Ones" bear a striking similarity to the Old Testament God, JHWY or El. Lovecraft's "Elder Gods" may have been his way of saying that earlier non-Judaic Gods were not as cruel or as evil as JHWY (aka Cthulhu.)
brilliant! now i'm a squid-worshipper as well! and there was me going we-ahabta eth-HaShem Elokekha bekhol lebabbekha wu-bekhol nafshekha wu-bekhol me'odhekha and all this time i should have been going ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn!

all i can say is that i think that the middle east is a rather silly place for an underwater squid-monster to choose.

b'shalom

bananabrain
 
The only turmoil would be to the denominational churches which do not heed its warnings. Of course, that is pretty inclusive.

The best one can do for those who reject Revelation is to just turn them to Daniel, which has a parallel revelation, using different parables. But then, to reject Revelation outright, if indeed it is the testimony of Yeshua, as stated within, then one may be simply wasting their time. In that case I, one who accepts Revelation as containing revelation, would point to Rev 22:11-12, "let the one who does wrong, still do wrong;....my reward is with me, to render to every man according to what he has done."

Now we have denominational v. non denominational issues? with thousands of denominational opinions as to what is dogma and what is not I wonder how many tens of thousands of non denominational churches there are. When are we non denominational...how many churches can be under one banner before they are called a denomination?

Now the topic here is the Roman Catholic church and I've discussed with many that both Genesis and Revelation are both solid metaphor... what is interesting amongst the american evangelicals is they believe both as fact one has historically accurate and the other as prophetic.

Now me...I believe what you believe to be true will affect your perceptions and reality....hence the reason that every generation since Jesus has believed that they were living in the end of times and the second coming and Armageddon were not only imminent, but would occur in their lifetime....to date, out of the millions and millions that have believed this.....none of them have been right....and there are millions more today that believe they are right as well.
 
The only turmoil would be to the denominational churches which do not heed its warnings. Of course, that is pretty inclusive.

The best one can do for those who reject Revelation is to just turn them to Daniel, which has a parallel revelation, using different parables. But then, to reject Revelation outright, if indeed it is the testimony of Yeshua, as stated within, then one may be simply wasting their time. In that case I, one who accepts Revelation as containing revelation, would point to Rev 22:11-12, "let the one who does wrong, still do wrong;....my reward is with me, to render to every man according to what he has done."

with thousands of denominations and their disagreements over dogma, I wonder how many thousands more nondenominational outfits there are out there.

and does anyone know how many churches that are under the same umbrella before you are considered a denomination?

As this is about the RC I've met and talked to folks from congregation to priests who indicate that both Genesis and Revelation are solid metaphor and shouldn't be read literally. Whereas many american evangelicals take both literally, Genesis as historical fact and Revelation as prophetic. I was surprised to find that this interpretation is uniquely american and modern.....that the world is not in sync with what we've grown up with here in the states.

But reality is that every generation since Jesus has had folks who have sworn, proved that the end of times are at hand, and that the signs are here, and that Armageddon is not only imminent but will occur in their lives, for 2000 years millions have been wrong in this regard, and today millions believe it to be right....that they will see the second coming....odds are that that will be going on for the next 2,000 or 20,000 years....and beyond.

Now I believe it is fairly obvious that what we believe colors and shapes our perceptions and hence our lives....so we should all watch what we get rapped up in...
 
I dunno, I just do not believe that disparaging others for what they define themselves to be does any good.

Inclusiveness and progress, I believe, imply acceptance of differences and the mutually beneficial discussion of those differences.

There is always a line between critcizing someone's opinion (which is open for public discussion) and someone's identity. I do not care to engage in the second.

finely put... salutations!
 
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