The Forbidden Gospel

Servetus said:
Nice, almost subtle switch there, Ben, but how you interpret things is irrelevant. The point is, if Jews don't believe in demons, as you had your little ignoramus fictional character (not the member on this board) Thomas say, then Samael, the so called "Prince of demons," as the writer put it, sure got an inexplicably long article of his own in the Jewish Encyclopedia I cited.


Serv
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Metaphorically. If he meant literally, he would have got no chance to be published in the Jewish Encyclopedia. There is no such a thing as Greek Mythology in Judaism.
Ben
 
BrotherMichaelSky said:
It's all in the interpretation of the account, I believe...
I believe his daddy was a human man....
and His Father the Father of All
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Yes, Jesus' father was the Father of All, but in the sense that we are All children of the same Father.
Ben
 
This dialogue is quite entertaining!:D

To see the abyss between faiths so emphacized, ya just gotta love it. See, Judaism has it's own very abstract and hair-splitting logic, much more akin to Scholasticism than the contemporary Yankee-influenced neo-secularism.

On one hand Samael is akin to Satan or ha-Satan, in that the meaning in Hebrew and within Judaism does not translate into contemporary terms well. "The Advesary" and "The Prince of Demons" are themselves only metaphor... kinda like the metaphorical Christ in "Last Temptation".

None of the three is meant literally. Same with the Ebionite site. It is nice that someone has adopted the name, but that does not mean they are Ebionites any more than "The Aryan Nation" is Aryan.;)
 
Ben Masada said:
Yes, Jesus' father was the Father of All, but in the sense that we are All children of the same Father.
Ben
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I hope that sometime the conversation gets to where I can go into this more deeply... i believe this is one of those "Matryoshka doll" things... like an onion... with meaning within meaning
 
radarmark said:
This dialogue is quite entertaining!:D

To see the abyss between faiths so emphacized, ya just gotta love it. See, Judaism has it's own very abstract and hair-splitting logic, much more akin to Scholasticism than the contemporary Yankee-influenced neo-secularism.

On one hand Samael is akin to Satan or ha-Satan, in that the meaning in Hebrew and within Judaism does not translate into contemporary terms well. "The Advesary" and "The Prince of Demons" are themselves only metaphor... kinda like the metaphorical Christ in "Last Temptation".

None of the three is meant literally. Same with the Ebionite site. It is nice that someone has adopted the name, but that does not mean they are Ebionites any more than "The Aryan Nation" is Aryan.;)
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:D
one must find their entertainment where it presents itself....
and I just don't get the same material for thought from TV....

We seem to be coming from worlds apart, but i do not really feel we are, and every exchange we have adds to the material i have to make further jumps of thought....

Ben hasn't started cursing me yet, so the hope is, he's not offended...
:)

Ben: would it help if I said that if i WAS to wear a holy symbol - it would be the Star of David?
:)
( i wouldn't have to tell you that for me it would represent the Merkaba - and a connection to the Divine... and Ezekiel's chariot..... I could keep that part to myself... :) )
 
radarmark said:
This dialogue is quite entertaining!:D

To see the abyss between faiths so emphacized, ya just gotta love it. See, Judaism has it's own very abstract and hair-splitting logic, much more akin to Scholasticism than the contemporary Yankee-influenced neo-secularism.

On one hand Samael is akin to Satan or ha-Satan, in that the meaning in Hebrew and within Judaism does not translate into contemporary terms well. "The Advesary" and "The Prince of Demons" are themselves only metaphor... kinda like the metaphorical Christ in "Last Temptation".

None of the three is meant literally. Same with the Ebionite site. It is nice that someone has adopted the name, but that does not mean they are Ebionites any more than "The Aryan Nation" is Aryan.;)
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IMHO, the Ebionites were just another name for the Nazarenes, members of the Jewish Sect organized by the Apostles soon after Jesus was gone.
Ben
 
Ben Masada said:
I devalue half the Law!!!!!! A Jew devalues half the Law!!!!!!!! That's unheard of!!!!!!!!!! We rather live by the Law.
Ben
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::eek:

:confused:

:D

that's what i said......

but you said:

Nevertheless, I did it.
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after i read this:
Mere allegories, which by definition, are to be interpreted metaphorically.
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which is a sentiment i have never heard from a Jew before.....
I my experience they have always kept the Midrashim like a secret weapon - the reason I could NOT QUITE understand the Jewish viewpoint....
( which is why i spent so darn much money on the indomitable Mr. Ginzberg's slavish labor... which, BTW - I will never regret...)
 
BrotherMichaelSky said:
::eek:

:confused:

:D

that's what i said......

but you said:



after i read this:


which is a sentiment i have never heard from a Jew before.....
I my experience they have always kept the Midrashim like a secret weapon - the reason I could NOT QUITE understand the Jewish viewpoint....
( which is why i spent so darn much money on the indomitable Mr. Ginzberg's slavish labor... which, BTW - I will never regret...)
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umph... ben's take is, in my view, rather unusual in terms of what he considers valid and invalid. midrash is a multi-edged sword; look at nahmanides' barnstorming performance at the disputation "kangaroo court" in spain; it is abundantly clear that his accusers quite simply didn't understand the way jews think, what we believe, or what we do as a result. more to the point, they simply didn't care: for them, it was simply a matter of setting up a straw man that they could grandstand around as the owners of the fabbo new improved covenant 2.0! unfortunately, i think ben's take is rather the converse of this, which relies rather on over-simplifying judaism to fit his prejudices.

but then, you guys already knew i think that.

b'shalom

bananabrain
 
Ben Masada said:
Metaphorically. If he meant literally, he would have got no chance to be published in the Jewish Encyclopedia. There is no such a thing as Greek Mythology in Judaism.
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I do realize, by now, that you tend to read only those articles from the Jewish Encyclopedia which you, yourself, have authored, but here, please insist that your ignorant little cardboard character "Thomas," the one who insists that Jews don't believe in demons, read this (also from the Jewish Encyclopedia):

Source:

Exorcism in Rabbinical Literature.

Rabbi Johanan ben Zakkai, a contemporary of Josephus, alludes to the practise of exorcism by saying: "Has an evil spirit never entered into you? Have you never seen a person into whom an evil spirit had entered? What should be done with one so affected? Take roots of herbs, burn them under him, and surround him with water, whereupon the spirit will flee" (Pesik., ed. Buber, 40a). R. Akiba (d. 132), in speaking of diseases, uses the technical terms of exorcism ('Ab. Zarah 55b). Simon ben Yoḥai drove out the demon Ben Temalion from the daughter of a Roman emperor (Me'i. 17b).
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In order to cast out (as you insist) 'metaphorical' demons, those sure sound like strangely literal procedures to me! Now, I know he's stubborn (but, after all, disciples often need discipline), so please have your Greek-hating, uni-dimensional character "Thomas" pay special attention not only to R. Akiba's recommendation for healing the sick, but, after he's taken notes in R. Akiba's medical school, have "Thomas" also stop by Rabbi Johanan ben Zakkai's apothecary shop, or pharmacy, for an efficacious selection of roots of herbs and a bunsen burner. Have "Thomas" follow all instructions printed on the prescription bottle and see if, soon enough, little 'metaphors' aren't hopping, bouncing and rebounding all around the room.


Serv
 
bananabrain said:
umph... ben's take is, in my view, rather unusual in terms of what he considers valid and invalid. midrash is a multi-edged sword; look at nahmanides' barnstorming performance at the disputation "kangaroo court" in spain; it is abundantly clear that his accusers quite simply didn't understand the way jews think, what we believe, or what we do as a result. more to the point, they simply didn't care: for them, it was simply a matter of setting up a straw man that they could grandstand around as the owners of the fabbo new improved covenant 2.0! unfortunately, i think ben's take is rather the converse of this, which relies rather on over-simplifying judaism to fit his prejudices.

but then, you guys already knew i think that.

b'shalom

bananabrain
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thanks, i'm still getting to know folks here, and my desire to understand folks is huge.... time will give me a better perspective....
it has been a drive within me for years to speak to EVERYONE at least once... :)
I find it no great surprise, that never have i found ANYONE with the exact same view as another.... I personally find it heartening.... :)

while i use generic terms like "Jews", never fear that i am making the mistake of generalizing PEOPLE.... i DO know better....
 
Servetus said:
I do realize, by now, that you tend to read only those articles from the Jewish Encyclopedia which you, yourself, have authored, but here, please insist that your ignorant little cardboard character "Thomas," the one who insists that Jews don't believe in demons, read this (also from the Jewish Encyclopedia):



In order to cast out (as you insist) 'metaphorical' demons, those sure sound like strangely literal procedures to me! Now, I know he's stubborn (but, after all, disciples often need discipline), so please have your Greek-hating, uni-dimensional character "Thomas" pay special attention not only to R. Akiba's recommendation for healing the sick, but, after he's taken notes in R. Akiba's medical school, have "Thomas" also stop by Rabbi Johanan ben Zakkai's apothecary shop, or pharmacy, for an efficacious selection of roots of herbs and a bunsen burner. Have "Thomas" follow all instructions printed on the prescription bottle and see if, soon enough, little 'metaphors' aren't hopping, bouncing and rebounding all around the room.

Serv
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Servetus, when one gets too angry as to come to the point even to murder someone else, I myself would say that a demon got into him to murder another, meaning by this that a demon was symbolized by the emanation of a terrible anger.

The exorcism supposedly done by Rabbi Johanan ben Zakkai, as you mention above, could very well have been an attempt by the Rabbi to induce in the patient the concept of self-suggestion, which has been proved to work for those who believe or are struggling with guilt and anxiety. If the Rabbi really believed that he was exorcising demons, I am so disappointed that I would never use that title to address myself to him.
Ben
 
Ben Masada said:
... If the Rabbi really believed that he was exorcising demons, I am so disappointed that I would never use that title to address myself to him.
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Ben, excuse my ad hominem in this case, but, after this long, multi-threaded, ongoing match at Wimbledon, I still think you are fantastic (and amusing). By the way, did you notice that the demon Simon ben Yoḥai is said to have driven out of the daughter of the Roman emperor was named Ben Temalion? I wonder who named him or if he, in the process of exorcism, identified himself by name. Anyway, the point is, at the time of Jesus, it apparently wasn't just Greeks who believed in demons as the cause, especially, of physical illness, so please let your character "Thomas" take note and alter his dialog in your Forbidden Gospel before you publish.

Always looking out for you,


Serv
 
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