What is religion?

wil said:
Okee dokee, we know for some...of the same religion....evolution is poppycock...

and for others.....of the same religion....evolution and science and belief can coexist.

Not only the same religion, but the same denomination, folks in the same church sometimes can even argue about it.

We all know this....the arguments occur amongst Christians, amongst Muslims, to a lessor degree amongst Jews... (I doubt Buddhists have issues, but don't know about Hindus.....

But what does that say about religion? Does it help us with a definition?
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Acintita Sutta

"Conjecture about [the origin, etc., of] the world is an unconjecturable that is not to be conjectured about, that would bring madness & vexation to anyone who conjectured about it.​

Conjecture about the origin of the world really has little to do with the dhamma, but how we treat one another does. Of course, madness and vexation can affect how we treat one another. ;)
 
wil said:
But what does that say about religion? Does it help us with a definition?
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Well we can all look in dictionairies...but what about the defining characteristics of Ninian Smart? (1 insufficient, but all may not need to be present)

Smart’s sevenfold scheme of study:

Doctrinal
Mythological
Ethical
Ritual
Experiential
Institutional
Material
 
Just another reason I love this place. Thanx for the introduction to the Episcopalian Buddhist! quite interesting, and interesting he added the 7th dimension just a few years before his death...I guess it was in front of his face for so long he could no longer ignore it.

The Seven Dimensions of Religion (Ninian Smart)

Ritual: Forms and orders of ceremonies (private and/or public) (often regarded as revealed)

Narrative and Mythic: stories (often regarded as revealed) that work on several levels. Sometimes narratives fit together into a fairly complete and systematic interpretation of the universe and human's place in it.

Experiential and emotional: dread, guilt, awe, mystery, devotion, liberation, ecstasy, inner peace, bliss (private)

Social and Institutional: belief system is shared and attitudes practiced by a group. Often rules for identifying community membership and

Ethical and legal: Rules about human behavior (often regarded as revealed from supernatural realm)

Doctrinal and philosophical: systematic formulation of religious teachings in an intellectually coherent form

Material: ordinary objects or places that symbolize or manifest the sacred or supernatural
 
(To me it is the ethical and legal that formed and kept the 'lasting' religions.

Yes they carry the other dimensions described and they may have been initiated by mythological stories around the campfire attempting to answer the questions of the ages, why am I here, and how did we get here.... But in essence the lasting ones had some sort of invisible iron fist to rule with, a system of rewards or punishments met out by something larger than life and unseen so as to control the masses.

Religions played the role of gov't before gov'ts were formed or when gov'ts were influx. These temporal leaders and geographical boundaries could come and go, but religions...their ethical and legal implications transcended this....or at least the ones that lasted did.

thanx again snoop for the introduction. (reading up on him and some of his essays I find his name linked with Spong and wonder if the two had many discussions....)
 
Very interesting twist here, it would be snoopy and wil and SG that get us back on thread. Try The Future of Religion - An Interview with Ninian Smart. One thing interesting is his aside on the issue of perennialism, that religions share a mystical core, but it is not the only core. I have struggled with that one for some time.

If the core of a lasting religion is the ethical and legal, so they share a core there? Are the lasing religions ones based on "do unto others"?

Ritual-Mythic-Experiential form a kind of sub-thread for me. Watching a Greek Wedding or a Catholic Easter Service or a Theravada Cremation or a Peyote Chant (Native American Chuch) are magic. Not in the sense that I am imagining something, but in the sense that one can feel the participants' experience and oneness through the ritual.
 
I've always though of religion as devotion to a concept--

de·vote
   /dɪˈvoʊt/ http://dictionary.reference.com/help/luna/IPA_pron_key.htmlShow Spelled[dih-voht] http://dictionary.reference.com/help/luna/Spell_pron_key.htmlShow IPA
verb (used with object), de·vot·ed, de·vot·ing. 1. to give up or appropriate to or concentrate on a particular pursuit, occupation, purpose, cause, etc.: to devote one's time to reading.

2. to appropriate by or as if by a vow; set apart or dedicate by a solemn or formal act; consecrate: She devoted her life to God.

3. to commit to evil or destruction; doom.



Origin:
1580–90; < Latin dēvōtus vowed (past participle of dēvovēre ), equivalent to dē- de- + vōtus; see vote, vow

Synonyms
1. assign, apply, consign. 2. Devote, dedicate, consecrate share the sense of assigning or applying someone or something to an activity, function, or end. Devote, though it has some overtones of religious dedication, is the most general of the three terms: He devoted his free time to mastering the computer. Dedicate is more solemn and carries an ethical or moral tone: We are dedicated to the achievement of equality for all. Consecrate, even in nonreligious contexts, clearly implies a powerful and sacred dedication: consecrated to the service of humanity.​

A specific hallmark is separating the sacred from the profane, imo--the beginning of forming the concept to which one can dedicate oneself.
 
seattlegal said:
I've always though of religion as devotion to a concept--
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That idea has merit.

Snoopy said:
Any contribution to science is established through peer review of the contribution offered; no religious faith or lack thereof, involved.
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Religious faith enables or disables people to pursue scientific research, since science requires pursuing knowledge in a particular way. The Romans disabled this pursuit in Europe by their fear of technological horrors and distrust of technical people, but the Christians enabled it again though believing that creation is good.
 
Wil said:
To me it is the ethical and legal that formed and kept the 'lasting' religions.
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Seems like it to me, to some degree. They are the practically relevant part of those lasting religions. I doubt these things could of themselves form a religion though its not out of the question.
 
Amergin said:
We are not special non-animals created by a bipolar space alien. We are animals. We are Primate Animals, We are Hominid animals. We are human apes (the only surviving human ape out of 9 species.)

It is time that we grow up and shed the kooky narcissism that we are spiritual beings resembling our chosen (and invented) god.

Among palaeological scientists, primatologists, evolutionary scientists, evolutionary geneticists, and educated modern people, there is not serious doubt about evolution and human evolution. Superstition and magical creation are strong mainly in the undeveloped world and the USA.
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Evolution is as close to a fact as many other things, and I also don't like the narcissism you speak of. It is a problem here in the USA, but its a symptom of some larger problem. If you ask me its because the Christians have been distracted from important matters to unimportant ones, and it has to do with our huge cultural losses and fantasy of extreme independence. It won't be solved by breaking down gates but through trade and compassion over the long term.
 
Dream --

I would add to what you said. The "huge cultural losses" include any notion of "ultimate truth" as something you can just hear or read. Instead even getting approximately close (like in quantum theory) is a matter of possibilities or probabilities. The "fantasy of extreme independence" then includes the sub-fantasy of denial of science.

Work for you?
 
Radarmark said:
I would add to what you said. The "huge cultural losses" include any notion of "ultimate truth" as something you can just hear or read. Instead even getting approximately close (like in quantum theory) is a matter of possibilities or probabilities. The "fantasy of extreme independence" then includes the sub-fantasy of denial of science.
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Good addition, thanks. Often it the older people who have lived long enough realize that things aren't always what they seem, that perspectives change and that being wrong is normal, not shameful. Its part of the reason that older people should be respected and heard though they are physically weak (or even mentally weakened). A younger person can't always grasp this and thinks 'Changing perspectives' means that good = evil. It doesn't. Religion is a part of the process of growing older and noticing that your own perspective has changed, and a religion should play a part in supporting this realization.
 
wil said:
Okee dokee, we know for some... and for others.....
But what does that say about religion?
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Nothing, as Radarmark keeps trying to point out ...

Einstein was not sold on Quantum Theory, so what does that say about the Jews?

My dear departed old aunt used to worry that there would be a reside of electricity in the wire between the switch and the lightbulb ... so if you believe in electricity, what does that say about you?

Sorry ... I was at a tradeshow all day yesterday with 3 million other people held in a sauna. I then optimistically spent all evening til gone 1.00am in a cellar bar smaller than our lounge listening to the best ad-hoc collection of musicians anywhere, then home by gone two and up and at 'em before six ...

So a tad jaded I find the constant anti-religious propaganda tiresome, utterly defeating the point of IO, deeply offensive, and guaranteed to kill of any meaningful discussion before it ever gets off the ground.

And not for the first time ask myself, 'why the fuck am I wasting my time here?'

What is religion? You make your mind up. Whatever. At the Constitution, two songs into the second set (close to midnight now), and I'm in heaven. As the old Jamaican lady used to say, "Lord, take me now ..."

God bless all,

Thomas
 
Thomas, looks like excellent line-up. Like you, the anti-religious (whether Christian or theistic) bent sometimes get to me. It reminds me of the difference between Wilber's "Quantum Questions" versus the standard new-age fare. Wilber citically and objectively gives some opinions of scientists, in their own words, not drawing conclusions but inferences. Most of the new-age fare jumps on some ideological bandwagon.

You and I (who have radically different Religions) seem to have a pretty good discourse, presenting things (unknown to one another) like WIlber. The dogmatic scientism that comes across sometimes is just so much different.

By the way, I hope you meant that topics like evolution and quantum mechanics just really should not be at the fore on this thread.
 
Thomas said:
So a tad jaded I find the constant anti-religious propaganda tiresome, utterly defeating the point of IO, deeply offensive, and guaranteed to kill of any meaningful discussion before it ever gets off the ground.

And not for the first time ask myself, 'why the fuck am I wasting my time here?'
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Whee....I'd say so.

utterly defeating the point of IO? Interfaith discussion? I think not.

We've been discussing the difference between spirituality and religion, maybe we should be discussing the difference between Faith and Religion.

Now we'll give you time to catch up on your sleep, but you of all people know that discussion is not fomented by simply tossing plates around the kitchen and storming out the door.

mayhaps you can comment about the 7 dimensions being discussed, or my opinion that religions that stand today were a replacement for Gov't...providing laws and morality and punishments....used as standard bearers?

But to continue discussion....

My current religion issue is the spread of denominations and arguments amongst them is and indication of the problem. I believe most religions started out with some divine inspiration, but then went beyond that point. They tried to explain more than they knew. This is the beginning of the problem. It becomes even more complicated as man, power, greed adn influence became involved.

So the grouping and splintering began and continue... and this is what to me separates religion, faith and spirituality...
 
Thomas said:
So was philosophy, in the beginning. Read Plato in Phaedo: the way of the philosopher is to die to the world.
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I can try. Plato can be difficult for me to understand without subtitles. {And yes, I'd still love to see Chuang Tzu slap Plato silly, especially after reading Plato's Republic!!}
 
Just so, SG. The problem is something I mentioned somewhere before... http://www.interfaith.org/forum/the-issue-about-time-and-15500.html#post269848. Parmenides pretty much put the ka-bosh on Heraclitus' interconnectedness model (very close to Laozi). Poor Plato did not have a chance, like most Westerners today, he just get up with the "rational notion" that everything was eternally real and change is in-definable.
 
radarmark said:
Just so, SG. The problem is something I mentioned somewhere before... http://www.interfaith.org/forum/the-issue-about-time-and-15500.html#post269848. Parmenides pretty much put the ka-bosh on Heraclitus' interconnectedness model (very close to Laozi). Poor Plato did not have a chance, like most Westerners today, he just get up with the "rational notion" that everything was eternally real and change is in-definable.
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Yeah, it's like when I read the dumbed-down synopses of Plato's arguments, I'm thinking, "Gee, what drugs are you on, and am I going to have to take these drugs to follow the trip you are on?" :eek:

When I read actual English translations of Plato, I can see where he touches on some of the flow/change concepts briefly, but then he goes off into his strange trip again. :eek:
 
And this Thomas is the reason I appreciate reading your posts and that of SG, Snoopy, Radarmark, and more... it makes me click and read and download and learn....
 
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