Was Jesus a Solar Diety?

Here: This one isn't my own creation, yet part of the point is everyone IS a part of THE Creation;
and `in His image' is perhaps a little different than we are accustomed to considering (?) ...

SonGlobe_Pier.jpg

A somewhat more lighthearted and subjective approach, if just as Sirius [sic]. :)

Is it required that we be a Solar God to either understand or attempt to Teach this kind of Truth? No, perhaps not, but it sure helps. :p

Truly though, we improve our delivery, the artistic side of our approach, through practice, observation, revision and renewed dedication.

The suggestion(s) from this artist's work, at least to my heart, my mind, are as an Open Door! I should hope folks `get it.' ;)
 
Hi Taijasi —
Of course the Christos, ANNOINTED, has everything to do with Solar Initiations, the HIGHEST of them all as are open to Humanity upon our Planet.
No, there are higher ... Baptism is way above 'solar initiation', as the Holy Spirit is not a cosmological determination ... you've been staring at the sun too long, chum! ;)

God bless

Thomas
 
I baptize you with water...but there is one who is coming who will baptize with the holy spirit....

when he came....it ended the need for water...

simply allow the 'solar diety', aka 'light', aka 'understanding/wisdom', to 'wash' over you....and let 'it' the holy spirit of oneness in.
 
In the first formless sphere, where there is no `model body' [etheric template] upon & around which the coats of skin can "harden" ... and where there is no fluidic [astral] body of the emotions ... and where 5th-dimensional mental forms do not include the personality thoughtform as our means of expression in such strata (itself *possibly* of lemon hues, yet far more often a shade of orange, even sienna or muddier) ...

... the actual appearance of the Causal Egg, or ovoid [the AURA proper, as there is no form] may be quite a bit as depicted in this artwork. I recommend this as a study, for when most individuals ask (and are quite likely not answered at all) about our Heavenly appearance, they may fail to meet with an accurate answer precisely for the same reasons that we have a hard time recognizing Jesus, either today or THEN.

The problem, simply enough, is that we don't quite know what we're looking for ... and in this case, AT. You cannot SEE Light. I would call your attention to THAT. What exactly, then, is the SUN? And yes, the S*n ...

The flames of the ELEMENT Fire flicker, dance and behave quite strangely, relative at least to the other two which we can directly observe (water, earth), or even air, the apparent freest of them all. Yet this artwork depicts something quite fixed, if also dynamic in its own world, I assure you.

Remember, seeing isn't always believing, which simply adds to the difficulty ~ and, sadly, mulitiplies difficulties for men like Thomas (and others) almost exponentially.

Thus, although I might interpret the symbolism in my own way, I'm afraid it will remain meaningless to others ~ while the Causal, the future Deathless Solar `body' cannot be or is not properly understood in its relationship with the SUN.

It was precisely about these relationships, amongst ourselves, with men like Jesus, and even between ALL INDIVIDUALS and their Creators which the Christ was directly teaching His Apostles throughout those three years. This, of course, is reflected and expressed [as well as EXPLICITLY STATED AND UNDERSCORED] in the Christian New Testament, the Gospels, BY the Gospel writers ... and is witnessed elsewhere in many esoteric sources, for confirmation. Hence teh GREAT disservice done by Thomas. And frankly, I think he knows it.

You see, if we have burnt our verby own proverbial BRIDGE, so to speak, then in our own hearts and minds we have - temporaily - slammed the very DOOR which might otherwise afford us contact ... be that with Christ Jesus, or any other of the Great Ones, and therefore almost certainly with the Christ Himself.

So let the blind assail what they do not understand. I have no idea what the artist pictured in her conscious mind, contemplated in her heart or intended in terms of the experience for the participant(s) who might view this work. There is, in my current understanding, only what it evoked from within me.

And in this case, the awareness of our relationship to or with our own Soul came to mind, the deeper connection with the Heart (sic) of our system - missed almost entirely by the man blinded with his own empty forms, the shells of his vain repetitions and dusty theologies.

The Sun on the horizon is our distant future, a true Picture of our future SELF ... though the Vatican Library is not likely to let you hear about THAT. And equally will they jealously guard the additional teachings, by Mystics and Occultists alike ... plenty of these TRUE CHRISTIANS (the truest of all), often the same ones Mother Church burned at the stake precisely for what they knew, and for daring to disagree with the greedy, over-zealous pontiffs, smug in their limited learning, hellbent on scaring others into silence and the END of questioning & Good REASON.

Let us be clear: Some of the Teachings about the true NATURE of the SON, the SUN, the SOUL and the Path to Salvation can and will set you free. They are frank and serious instructions, provided for those who are ready. For those who are not, the exoteric forms are often quite effective and sufficient, but they are riddled with inaccuracies ~ and often enough gross distortion(s). If the former are of no interest, the man of Goodwill can often be served just as well by continuing to emulate as best he is able whatever particular Ideals, and incarnating Types he has experienced or been drawn to.

Where the distortions continue, even the earnest seeker can be distracted from the Path temporarily, although NO amount of persecution and putting-on-of-shameful-airs can derail us finally or for long as we make our gradual Way:
From the Unreal to the Real,
From Darkness unto Light,
and from Death to Immortality.
 
There are many here who realize full well that the Christ's appearance 2100 years ago was that of the Sun God ... and there are reasons why, signs by which, we recognize this fact. Some of these are summed up below in the following excerpts from Alice Bailey's book, From Bethlehem to Calvary.

In some cases, Alice offers her own thoughts. In the first source quoted below [lxviii], however, she is referencing Pagan and Christian Creeds, by Edward Carpenter. The three quotations which follow are from Esoteric Christianity, by Annie Besant. And the final quotation is from the Venerable Bede, De Temp. rat., xiii.

~-~+~-~

Mithras was born in a cave, and so were many others. Christ was born in a cave and entered, as did all the others, upon a life of service and of sacrifice, thus qualifying for the task of world Saviour. They brought light and revelation to mankind and were sacrificed, in the majority of cases, to the hatred of those who did not understand their message, or who objected to their methods. All of them "descended into hell and rose again on the third day." There are twenty or thirty of these stories scattered through the centuries of human history, and the stories and the missions are ever identical.

"The Jesus-story, it will now be seen, has a greater number of correspondences with the stories of former Sungods and with the actual career of the Sun through the heavens—so many indeed that they cannot well be attributed to mere coincidence or even to the blasphemous wiles of the Devil! Let us enumerate some of these. There are (1) birth from a Virgin mother; (2) the birth in a stable (cave or underground chamber); and (3) on the 25th December (just after the winter solstice). There is (4) the Star in the East (Sirius) and (5) the arrival of the Magi (the `Three Kings'); there is (6) the threatened Massacre of the Innocents, and the consequent flight into a distant country (told also of Krishna and other Sungods). There are the Church festivals of (7) Candlemas (2nd February), with processions of candles to symbolise the growing light; of (8) Lent, or the arrival of Spring; of (9) Easter Day (normally on 25th March) to celebrate the crossing of the Equator by the Sun; and (10) simultaneously the outburst of lights at the Holy Sepulchre at Jerusalem. There is (11) the Crucifixion and death of the Lamb-God, on Good Friday, three days before Easter; there are (12) the nailing to a tree, (13) the empty grave, (14) the glad Resurrection (as in the cases of Osiris, Attis and others); there are (15) the twelve disciples (the Zodiacal signs); and (16) the betrayal by one of the twelve. Then later there is (17) Mid-summer Day, the 24th June, dedicated to the birth of the beloved disciple John, and corresponding to Christmas Day; there are the festivals of (18) the Assumption of the Virgin (15th August) and of (19) the Nativity of the Virgin (8th September), corresponding to the movement of the god through Virgo; there is the conflict of Christ and his disciples with the autumnal asterisms, (20) the Serpent and the Scorpion; and finally there is the curious fact that the Church (21) dedicates the very day of the winter solstice (when any one may verynaturally doubt the re-birth of the Sun) to St. Thomas, who doubted the truth of the Resurrection!" [lxviii]

Any student of comparative religion can investigate the truth of these statements, and at the end will stand amazed at the persistence of God's love and the willingness to sacrifice Themselves which all these Sons of God manifest.

It is therefore wise and timely to remember that:

"These events are reproduced in the lives of the various Solar Gods, and antiquity teems with illustrations of them. Isis of Egypt, like Mary of Bethlehem, was our Immaculate Lady, Star of the Sea, Queen of Heaven, Mother of God. We see her, in pictures, standing on the crescent moon, star-crowned, she nurses her child Horus, and the cross appears on the back of the seat in which he sits on his mother's knee. The Virgo of the zodiac is represented in ancient drawings as a woman suckling a child—the type of all future Madonnas with their divine Babes, showing the origin of the symbol. Devaki is likewise figured with the divine Krishna in her arms, as is Mylitta, or Istar, of Babylon, also with the recurrent crown of stars, and with her child Tammuz on her knee. Mercury and Aesculapius, Bacchus and Hercules, Perseus and the Dioscuri, Mithras and Zarathustra were all of divine and human birth." [lxix]

It is apposite to recall that the cathedral of Notre Damein Paris is built upon the ancient site of a Temple of Isis, and that the early Church very frequently availed itself of a so-called heathen opportunity to determine a Christian rite or a day of sacred remembrance. Even the establishing of Christmas Day on December 25th was so determined. The same writer quoted above tells us that:

"On the fixing of the 25th December as the birthday of Jesus, Williamson has the following: `All Christians know that the 25th December is now the recognised festival of the birth of Jesus, but few are aware that this has not always been so. There have been, it is said, one hundred and thirty-six different dates fixed on by different Christian sects. Lightfoot gives it as September 15th, others as in February or August. Epiphanius mentions two sects, one celebrating in June, the other in July. The matter was finally settled by Pope Julius in 337 A.D., and St. Chrysostom, writing in 390, says: `On this day (i.e. 25th December) also the birth of Christ was lately fixed at Rome, in order that while the heathen were busy with their ceremonies (the Brumalia, in honour of Bacchus) the Christians might perform their rites undisturbed.'" [lxx]

The choice of this particular date is cosmic in its implications, and not unwittingly, we can be sure, did the wise men of earlier times make these momentous decisions. Annie Besant tells us that:

"He is always born at the winter solstice, after the shortest day in the year, at the midnight of the 24th December when the sign Virgo is rising above the horizon; born as this Sign is rising, he is born always of a virgin, and she remains a virgin after she has given birth to her Sun-child as the celestial Virgo remains unchanged and unsullied when the Sun comes forth from her in the Heavens. Weak, feeble as an infant is he, born when the days are shortest and the nights are longest...." [lxxi]

It is also interesting to remember that:

"The Venerable Bede, [lxxii] writing in the early part of the EighthCentury, says that `the ancient people of the Anglian nation', by which he means the pagan English before their settlement in Britain about A.D. 500, `began the year on December 25th, when we now celebrate the birthday of our Lord'; and he tells us that the night of December 24th-25th `which is the very night now so holy to us was called in their tongue Modranecht, that is to say "Mother's Night," by reason of the ceremonies which in that night-long vigil they performed.' He does not mention what those ceremonies were, but it is clear that they were connected with the birth of the Sun-god. At the time when the English were converted to Christianity in the Sixth and Seventh Centuries the festival of the Nativity on December 25th had been already long established in Rome as a solemn celebration; but in England its identification with the joyous old pagan Yule—a word apparently meaning a `jollification'—gave it a merry character which it did not possess in the south. This character has survived, and is in marked contrast to its nature amongst the Latin races, with whom the northern custom of feasting and giving Christmas presents was unknown until recent years." [lxxiii]

~-~+~-~

If there are any questions or discussion on the ideas presented ... I'll discuss as best I can.

Anyone wishing to read further can do so online for free at Lucis Trust, the original publisher of Alice Bailey's writings. In the paragraphs that follow the above selections, further astrological correspondences with the coming of Christ are provided, as evidenced in the Bible and in other Holy Scriptures.
 
Getting back to the topic: what is the basis for the claim that Jesus was a continuation of the Mithras cult?
None, really. other than anti-Christian polemic.

Scholarship now traces two Mithras cults. The original Persian cult, of which next to nothing is known, and the Roman cult, of which very little is known.

What we do know is the Roman cult, which seems a reworking of the Persian cult. It would seem that the Roman cult copied Christian motifs, rather than the other way round.

The claims that Mithras was a virgin birth, last supper, death and resurrection, etc., are all spurious.

God bless

Thomas
 
If there are any questions or discussion on the ideas presented ...
Well some reasoning as to why a religion that claims Jesus Christ is the Son of the One True God would ever bother to make such a naive claim?

I mean, the Christians were claiming Jesus is the incarnate Son, the Logos of God, the Third Person of the Holy Trinity.

Compared to that, surely talk of a solar deity is somewhat naive and parochial?

God bless

Thomas
 
Well some reasoning as to why a religion that claims Jesus Christ is the Son of the One True God would ever bother to make such a naive claim?

I mean, the Christians were claiming Jesus is the incarnate Son, the Logos of God, the Third Person of the Holy Trinity.

Compared to that, surely talk of a solar deity is somewhat naive and parochial?

God bless

Thomas
Perhaps you should talk to St. Peter, Thomas. Oh wait, you don't believe in that business ... hmmm, nevermind.

Some people are quite content with their delusions, correct Thomas?
You can tell us ALLLLLLLL about them. And you do. Every time you make a post.

Do I feel like fighting you for them.

Nope.

Would-be friend ... they are YOURS. Enjoy!!! ;)

~~+~~

Put this old buffoon in his place, and he clams up pretty fast. He has nothing to say, because he CAN SAY NOTHING. The evidence is old. The case is made centuries ago. SOME of us knew quite well at the time. I cannot say this old chap was among them. I CAN say that he wages a war on Truth and upon the very GOD and the Firmament which upholds, supports the same.

Shall he succeed at this windmill-tilting obsession of his? I'm sure he thinks so.

Remember:
All that we are is the result of what we have thought.
With our thoughts we make the world.
Preach a bunch of F.S.M. baloney at others long enough, even with a wry smile on your face and mock enthusiasm [much less the real thing] ... and in time, you will believe your own delusions.

Thomas does not understand what GRAFT is. He has missed the significance of the VINE entirely, and has failed to observe Nature's lessons. He does not grasp that that which is ETERNAL recurs, coming in each Age, each Sign to REVEAL Itself.

He is ignorant of the Vedas, the Zohar and even his own TRADITION which he loves to tout ... and will, no doubt, whip up a lovely storm of LOGIC, pure LOGIC, to show us why of course, he and the Roman Catholics are right, Christendom is EXACTLY as he says it is ... and Solar Deities are just a Pagan thing of the past.

Your flock will chase you over that cliff, CHIEF HEADMASTER LEMMING ... yet as you plummet faster & faster toward the bottom, as these sheep grow fangs and claws and realize what you and your ilk have done to them, what you HAVE NOT done FOR them, they will tar & feather you, nail you to species of trees that have yet to even appear on our fair Planet.

And I will not extend a hand to stop them.

They are yours; and your destiny ... you are sowing.

Go quake or quack, for all I care. Feed the ducks, but don't ever, ever take a drink at the pool of clear, flowing Aquarian waters. No sir, that Pierian Spring is not for you for your sort. NOT AT ALL!

And whatever you do ~ STAY OUT OF THE SON ... I mean, SUN! :eek:
 
Perhaps you should ...
No, Andrew, stop throwing insults and waffling on ... answer the question:

Why, if Christians claim that Our Lord is the Incarnate Son, the Logos of God, the Third Person of the Holy Trinity, would they present Him as something so naive and parochial as a solar deity?

And whatever you do ~ STAY OUT OF THE SON ... I mean, SUN! :eek:
Don't worry, old son, we're well over that horizon:
"But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true adorers shall adore the Father in spirit and in truth. For the Father also seeketh such to adore him." John 4:23
"God is a spirit; and they that adore him, must adore him in spirit and in truth." John 4:24

The God Christians believe in transcends the forms that you are so fixated on.

God bless,

Thomas
 
No, Andrew, stop throwing insults and waffling on ... answer the question:

Why, if Christians claim that Our Lord is the Incarnate Son, the Logos of God, the Third Person of the Holy Trinity, would they present Him as something so naive and parochial as a solar deity?
Hmmm. Because they might be - excepting yourself - ENLIGHTENED.

Thomas, as usual, you miss the point entirely. You are - because it is [in, part of] your nature - making TWO issues where there is only one.

You are dividing what cannot, by ITs NATURE, be divided.

Until you rent in twain your OWN veils ... and SEE what is on the other side, I cannot help you. Don't ask ME to explain for you what all your learned poobahs fail to do. The writing's on the wall, Thomas. If you cannot read it, I will not waste my breath reading to the DEAF.

READ what I posted, excerpted from From Bethlehem to Cavalry. Can you not grasp what is being said?

Christ came not to deceive. Your `learned fathers' [self-styled, self-desigated] on the other hand, have done so on many occasions. While I'm sorry that you got dragged along ... and might otherwise have the wit and wile to slip through the cracks ~ this time you didn't.

I can't help you there, if you bite the hand that feeds. I will not force you to drink, good horse; it's not my right. No one can make you drink.

You have not yet ASKED me a question, Thomas. All you do is keep saying, "these are two things" (and the question is implicit in your statement ... yet here, once more, I keep trying to get you - since I would think YOU of all people have the brains - to see it) ... and there are not.

There are NOT two things, Thomas ... one being Solar Deities, the second being some magical new presentation which is Christ Jesus.

Christ obeys the SAME laws as does the Nazarene; both men arrived at their present standing, or Post, through hard effort ... and hard-won right, if you wish to consider World Teacher as an Honorary. And the latter is the Solar Deity, in one of many Aspects, whichever sign or world age you find him coming in.

Let's try to keep it simple, eh my British Brother? I don't think you are getting this at all.

Your Gita will tell you plainly of the Christ, CHRISHNA, in His Incarnation [yes, I know you lot make a big deal of this, but understand it *not*] former. Not the only former, just the most recent in a long line. The passage in question applies not simply to the one Soul in question, either. It applies, rather, to the very OFFICE of World Teacher, the Solar Deity insofar as the same has thus far presented Itself to us via representatives which Humanity can understand [if we BREAK FREE the superstitions and PRISON-HOUSE of outworn, unenlightened traditions ~ plenty of which have NEVER held the Truth or anything like it].

Let me quote, lest you accuse me of posting nothing but a frustrated heap of "Dear GOD man, you can't be so daft as not to SEE THIS!"
"Whenever righteousness wanes and unrighteousness increases I send myself forth.
For the protection of the good and for the destruction of evil,
and for the establishment of righteousness,
I come into being age after age." (Gita:4.7–8)
I know you don't understand how Avatars work, really even that they do. It will come, Grasshopper, it will come.

For some background on the subject, which will help you on forums like this, you might start with the Wiki article on Avatars ... then read the one on Incarnation [in context of religion, theology, etc.]. As much as you yap on about it, you really out to learn what the rest of us already know. :eek:

Thomas said:
The God Christians believe in transcends the forms that you are so fixated on.
The God that I believe in transcends the Thomas who has these ideas. This God transcends your precious theology and all of these ideas you like to spin out here at a site which is called Interfaith, yet which Thomas - our own resident theologian - is trying hard to turn into simply a Roman Catholic tent revival.

Sounds pretty unlikely to me. Exactly.

The God I believe in not only emanates the many Suns of Cosmos periodically, but also gives rise to the very `world egg' or World Tree which is planted firmly on the ... Firmament [which you have thoroughly misunderstood and, like your GOD, turned into a MAN].

All of your best ideas, your moments of Greatest Inspiration ... and in fact, EVERYTHING you've ever done, seen, thought or been ~ or are ~ or WILL BE ... has arisen because it has grown forth either as part of this Tree, or as a part of a symbolic, an allegorical ecosystem for which this `Tree' is directly Responsible [and I mean as THE Heart, rather than even an integral part].

In a word, this tree is GOD ~ or at least, it's the only `God' you have ever managed to conceive. Keep it up, Thomas. I know you'll find your ROOTS. They are buried DEEP beneath these GARDEN walls. They support ALL within this Garden. They burst forth, in TRUNK form, which confuses some ... though again, I had really thought a man with your brains might be able to realize.

I was wrong.

The trunk shoots forth well into the air, divides yet remains ONE TREE [again, a Mystery ... a MIRACLE! which our resident Roman Catholic self-styled theologian cannot solve or appreciate, thus bashes & thrashes the true Gnostics over the head with, hiding his ignorance, revealing only a puffed-up, empty EGO in place of Knowledge, stealing the show where Wisdom's meant to go]. The Tree has many branches ... and Thomas, sitting here in the corner of one of them, whispers his learnings to Nicodemus, and laughs at us fools for thinking we can be born again.

He has figured it all out, and knows quite well it's all contained in the Papal BULL ... cult of yesteryear, as Moses made plain 3000 years ago and more.

I will play with words on occasion, because while I can take a joke, I really can't get you down from that Tree where you - LIKE ALL OF US - sit ... waiting for an apple, not realizing all the while that the rest of us are awakening, Newton-like, EVERY DAY to some new fact, new angle on, new appreciation about THE UNI-Verse.

The SONG of ONE God, yes, but Nicodemus ... come down from your Tree. I hear [directly from Him, close enough] there's Someone curious here, interested in sharing a few things with you ~ you know, just to help you out a little, catch you up with the times ... HIS times. And they are NOW, not 2100 years ago.

Oh Thoooooooooomas, take off those dark glaaaaaaaasses. They do not becooooooooome you. And the result is just walking around in the DARK.

I will talk with you all day long about the GOD that comes to His People (and there are 6 or 7 billion of us that YOU CAN SEE as well as me) ... AGAIN and AGAIN and AGAIN. I don't insist that you get to know YOUR OWN GOD, as that's your business. Just, if you would, pray as Christ asked you ... and IN THAT PLACE, THAT FASHION.

As for sending forth Apostles, even modern-day throwbacks, who will - naturally - appear quite unlike the missionaries that have hitherto gone forth and poisoned the natives ... well, I respect the INDIGENOUS Traditions. That's Druidic/Celtic, Native American, Buddhistic and pre-Buddhistic, as well as the AGELESS & Ancient WISDOM of GOD which has always been present and practiced by these peoples, in every land and in every age in more forgotten variations than we shall ever understand.

YOU, on the other hand, Thomas, tell us that GOD HIMSELF came 2000 years ago, couldn't manage to do things right EVEN IN PERSON (sic) ... so perpetuated the same incompetence which we see among [God's] followers today, and that nevertheless we should believe YOUR extremely illogical, fairy-tale vain-imaginings, whereby if we keep throwing enough money at him and telling him what a swell chap he is, we might just be lucky enough to come sit at YOUR table, which naturally you are being so kind as to let us sit at [non-Catholic Christians, others lower on your Church's endless HIERARCHY of orders of UN-converted] ... oh and, as YOU say, God will be there too. That god-thing you keep babbling about.

Don't ask me another word about why you are so deluded, so confused, so mistaken ... and why the ignorant MASSES are content to just sit there every Sunday, fiddling with their jewellery and making plans for tea & crumpets, tossing into the collection plates their INDU£GENCE TOKEN$ that they may gain an easy spot in your imagined, self-styled `heaven' without ever having to lift a finger again [oh wait, you make the poor buggers come in and blab their catharses so the magic pontiff with the pointy hat can have some dirt later for when he must feed the ducks, which I know is better than running the Cathars through because they were onto your treacheries and willing to expose YOU; oh dear, a jab ~ yes, well, your lot has burned some of the Greatest Saints and Heroines to ever walk the Earth, all so you can keep worshiping the god-man you have invented, so I'll take this one].
 
I think the Catholic Church can be summed up by Matthew 7:16
16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
 
Who are some of the other Solar Deities? I count Horus, Krishna, Christ and the Lamb of Revelations. What others?
 
Thomas, as usual, you miss the point entirely.
The point is, did the Tradition ever present Christ as a solar deity?
I say no. have I missed something?

Andrew — please note — interpretation is not evidence.

And please note we reject your 'one size fits all' dogma as without foundation and metaphysically unworkable.

Nor can Plato nor the Vedas nor the Sutras nor the Emerald Tablet nor any other Tradition offer an authoritative commentary on Christianity. How can it, when what lies at the heart of the Tradition is a Revelation:
"I will open my mouth in parables, I will utter things hidden from the foundation of the world" (Matthew 13:35, Peter 1:20)?

Hmmm. Because they might be - excepting yourself - ENLIGHTENED.
It is because they are enlightened that they don't and never did present the Son of God as a solar deity. They saw Him as way more than that, a point you don't seem to be able to grasp:

Giving thanks to God the Father,
who hath made us worthy to be partakers of the lot of the saints in light:
Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness,
and hath translated us into the kingdom of the Son of his love,
In whom we have redemption through his blood,
the remission of sins;

Who is the image of the invisible God,
the firstborn of every creature:
For in him were all things created in heaven and on earth,
visible and invisible,
whether thrones, or dominations, or principalities, or powers:
all things were created by him and in him.
And he is before all, and by him all things consist.


And he is the head of the body, the church,
who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead;
that in all things he may hold the primacy:
Because in him, it hath well pleased the Father, that all fullness should dwell;

And through him to reconcile all things unto himself,
making peace through the blood of his cross,
both as to the things that are on earth,
and the things that are in heaven.
The above is regarded by scholars as a hymn among the early Christian communities that Paul enfolded into his letter to the Colossians. It's also a succinct summation of Christian doctrine and metaphysics. I have highlighted the relevant text.

It's evident in the Liturgy, Tradition and Scripture of the Church.

It also makes it plain that Christ is the Pantokrator, the Creator of Worlds, and not a created element within a world, which is what the sun is.

That others, unaware of the content of the disciplina arcani, might construe Him as a solar deity is understandable, but incorrect.

+++

Andrew, that you are enlightened by the light of forms, that I do not dispute, it's your claim to make and it sits with you — all your arguments rest on presenting forms drawn from various sources — but Christianity in its core doctrines transcends the world of forms:
"Supernal Triad, Deity above all essence, knowledge and goodness; Guide of Christians to Divine Wisdom; direct our path to the ultimate summit of your mystical knowledge, most incomprehensible, most luminous and most exalted, where the pure, absolute and immutable mysteries of theology are veiled in the dazzling obscurity of the secret Silence, outshining all brilliance with the intensity of their Darkness, and surcharging our blinded intellects with the utterly impalpable and invisible fairness of glories surpassing all beauty." St Denys, Mystical Theology, 1, 1.

God bless,

Thomas
 
Who are some of the other Solar Deities? I count Horus, Krishna, Christ and the Lamb of Revelations. What others?
There is only 1 Solar Deity in the sense that we might consider, for the moment. This, to me, is the point.

So the question is: How does the Solar Logos Reveal [Himself] via the sub-Solar Panoply, or Panopticon of Deities? Or, if we prefer, Who and what are these Trifold, Sevenfold, Tenfold or Twelvefold `face(t)s' of the 1 Living God [Solar] as this God expresses [God] to us w/in the Planetary Schools?

Let's be particular, though, and accept that as Earthicans (thanks, Futurama) ... or inhabitants of the Fourth Scheme, we are in a unique position at the present Solar configuration [`time'] to appreciate the role of <any> Humanity in its Sub-Stellar, Intra-Planetary arrangement, alignment or set of relationships.

And as always, As Above, So Below. Keep the set of Right Relationships in Balance (On Earth as also in Heaven) ... and then acknowledge Heavenly Orders embrace and include the Animal, Vegetable and Mineral Kingdoms, brought together in the Living Synthesis or fusion that is MAN, the 4th Kingdom, or Living Square.

The relationships between Earth's Humanity and that of Mercury [Budha is her Sanskrit name], Venus [our spiritual Elder] ... even Jupiter [Brihaspati] ... involve harmonic relationships as between the even numbers 2, 4 and 6, plus the number 5, corresponding with Venus, which stimulates the Principle of Mind (the 5th or 3rd Principle) receiving stimulus at this stage of Planetary Evolution.

Similarly, it is the 5th Kingdom, the Kingdom of God, of Heaven or of Souls, which is in the process of increasing expression and Externalization via our 4th-Kingdom Humanity ... on this planet at present. The question of the Solar Deity is not one of whether Christ Jesus expressed part of a Revelation of the same to and for us, embodying some Unique Quality of said Deity for all of Humanity. Rather, any open-minded person and student of the Teachings of Christ should know this.

Here is the central Mystery of Christianity, and one which the Christ opened to us all, inviting us to rise and meet the challenges of the Spiritual Path, to take up OUR Cross and accept whatever karmic burdens are remaining in our collective `caseload' (or list of debts to Humanity and to the other Kingdoms). Christ focused for us the same Light of Truth and of Reconciliation as did the Buddha before him, doing so in a manner in which ALL of our sins could eventually be laid bare, or made plain before us that we may BALANCE them and step up to the plate, becoming of full SERVICE and usefulness to the Soul.

In the Gospel of John (Ch. 12, v. 32), we find clear instruction for those who are receptive to Christ's Message:
"And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me"​

Thus the practicing of the Golden Rule, the keeping of the Christian Ideal central to our hearts, is sure to bring the fruitful harvest which all persons either openly or secretly desire.

Christ taught us, in all of this, a means or Way of Spiritual Approach. Thus He demonstrated God's Wisdom as did the Buddha, and Teachers before Him, yet He also brought and embodied for us something new. The deeper Revelation of God's Love for us which the Christ presented is that of the Path of Initiation, from Birth to Baptism, through Transfiguration to Renunciation [`Crucifixion' of the personality form] ... eventually leading to the Triumph and lasting Victory of the Resurrection and Ascension.

Thus He disclosed to us the Universal Mystery and Way of Initiation, whereby ALL of the Sixty [60] Billion evolving Sons of God ~ the Divine Pilgrims (or Monads) wrapped in Earthly garb ~ shall eventually and gradually return to the Father's House. And we were instructed in the particulars, whereby it is the SOUL that incarnates repeatedly, remaining clearly focused on the proverbial *measuring stick* as described in Ephesians ch. 4, verses 12-13:

"For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ."​

But of course, the meaning of this is utterly missing from the mind of those without spiritual insight. :(

Nonetheless, St. John also records the Vision of Humanity's future in the following verses from The Book of Revelation:

"And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them." ~ Ch. 7, v.13-15​

Is there any indication in Christian literature of what the true, Spiritual Heaven is like for those who have `graduated' from Earth's Schoolroom - either now, in advance of the rest of the class, or for those of us who follow the longer, safer, and slower path of learning & Wisdom?

Yes, and it comes in further accounts by St. John, including the passages immediately following the above, in Revelations Ch. 7 (v.16-17):

"They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat. For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes."​

Yet this Perfection, our spiritual advance and eventual Initiation, does not come via any sort of vicarious atonement or via the blood sacrifice of one man as scapegoat for the sins of another ... for even the New Testament Gospels tell us that:

"For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled." ~Matthew 5:18​

And the wise shall not deny this, for they know well that if Christ was sent from God, He taught the Law of Rebirth and of Cause and Effect. Indeed, the New Testament is replete with such instances, including the following indication, also by John the Revelator [Ch.3, v.12]:

"Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out"​

So does our Worship eventually shift from a Recognition and Honoring, and a scientific form of Invocation and Evocation of the Divine Life within the Planetary Kingdoms (including the hearts and minds of every Follower and of every Son of Man, even acknowledging the animal, vegetable and mineral evolutions ... leading also to the more direct relationship with the Angelic and other Superhuman Kingdoms) ~ to that of the Interplanetary, Extra-planetary, Solar and beyond.

Our calling is no less than to the Recognition of the True Festival of Lights, and also to participation therein, as brings with it the type of Spiritual Communion which the Christ had attained, as have many others both before and since.

Eventually, our Solar Orb is appreciated as holding a position and serving a purpose most certainly unique and vital within a Greater Being, just as the Solar System itself is at present composed of the Seven Planetary Logoi Before the Throne of God ... with additional, aspiring Logoi (such as the Earth Logos) and the veritable Hosts of lesser lives, including our own and the 140 billion Deva-lives [Angels] currently evolving alongside us.

Our `graduation' from Planetary evolution, in this or some future cycle, brings us viz-a-viz with the One Initiator of our own Planetary School, as per the Priestly or Aaronic [Kohenic] Blessing, so central to the Christian liturgy in perpetuating the true spiritual lineage of Melchizedek [including that of Tzadok, to which the Galilean Adept belonged in several noteworthy incarnations mentioned in Christian and Hebrew Scripture].

Further, we are Initiated [introduced] to the true Blue Lodge of Sirius, the Cosmic Christ at the 5th Initiation (or Ascension) ... and can finally begin to directly participate with Love, Intelligence and PURPOSE in the Plans of the Solar Logos as these reach beyond our System, to other Suns, other Human evolutions, or to those advanced Spiritual Kingdoms (5th, 6th and 7th) which correspond to our own, upon the Earth.

I would encourage those who are interested in the topic to continue to pursue an understanding which neither offends your Intellect (your Inspired, Illuminated Reason) nor diminishes and eclipses the Spirit as it stirs the Heart. For the Principle of Knowing, of true spiritual Love-Wisdom, will Awaken the Heart rather than put it to sleep, will always encourage the proper wedding of Mind and Spiritual Insight, and will also stimulate the Will-to-Good, including a desire to serve your fellow man and to be of service wherever, however circumstances require.

Anything less is not the Teaching of the Buddhas, and is not worthy to be called the Instruction of the Christ. Anything other, is likely to be cunningly crafted by the warped, deranged, deluded minds of the spiritually bereft followers of dead-letter creedalism, seeking only vainglory with empty ritual, all the while claiming supposed `Mystery' as still at the heart of their practice ... though a mystery which they can no longer explain, nor even place within a sensible context.

No, when the Solar Deity is rejected, when Sol Invictus (in its esoteric and universal implication) has been replaced with `Jesus the God-man' of utter fancy and foolishness ... this is when it is perhaps time to leave the burning structure to crumble on its own, to call to the boy with his fingers in the dike and invite him to hear his own Reason and the still, small Voice of Wisdom, in his OWN breast ~ lest he ignore it ... at his OWN peril.

Perhaps nothing can be done for these types, yet for those who are so needy of the warmth of the Solar Rays, who are actively searching for Light, seeking to be Illumined by the Mysteries ... God welcomes the earnest effort and meets every such Aspiration with due reward, with Light and Love, and most certainly - where motive is pure - with that Spiritual Empowerment which God's own Law guarantees, and provides, for us ALL. :)

Thus, "until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ," I sign myself:

Your Brother on the Path, ANDREW.

Namaskar
 
Elsewhere I have written about the Path of Initiation, or of Approach to God, open to ALL ... and possible of treading (at least in its earliest stages) by ALL of the Sons of Men.

It is also possible to describe how, in fact, ALL LIVES [all jivas, or all 60 billion human Souls] are already upon this Path, which begins with our Individualization from the animal Kingdom ~ either in Lemurian times, as applies to our own current `Christ,' or later (Atlantis), or in many cases during a prior evolutionary cycle, as on the Moon.

Here is the answer to the person who has never bothered to study the actual teaching, yet would deny the Wisdom of God ... supplanting the feeble attempts of his own mind - for the still, small Voice.

Let the Disciple slay the Slayer.

Or let him proceed, instead, in folly. That's not up to me, or to any of the rest of us.
That's a person's OWN choice! ;)

Would that some would not deny God their company ... in apostasy, vanity, ignorance or a smug self-certainty that is based on the denial of other teachings, rather than in the practice of their OWN. For when one's `tradition' dictates that another must be spurned, and in fact, ALL OTHER PATHS OF APPROACH shunned and their travelers persecuted, then is that man at great risk of spiritual peril, should he not repent and resume SAFE TRAVEL.

Behold the man so blind, that he neither sees his Fellow Pilgrim and co-Traveler ahead, nor is willing to extend a hand and assist the Traveler behind. What is to become of the man who tarries on the lowest rung of Jacob's Ladder ... yet is unwilling to reach forth to his co-Pilgrims still struggling to gain a secure foothold on the selfsame Ladder? What is to become of him who would, as if from spite, loosen the very grip of his Brothers who but seek to gain the same secure hold on that Ladder which was afforded to him ... and which certain he should not now maintain, were it not for the assistance of others, who even now look upon him with dismay, as also with tenderness and Compassion.

I assure you, these latter will not let the strugglers or the stragglers slip away, simply for the follies of this one man (or of any other, would-be entrant into the Mysteries). Better to let the one lost sheep learn a difficult lesson ... and go to fetch him when he is finally ready to accept the proffered assistance, instead of biting the proverbial hand ~ that feeds him. :(
 
SonGlobe_Pier.jpg

Again, the image should assist in our understanding, yet I will say more, since the elucidation is helpful for some:

The Solar Deity, wrapped in His exoteric garb [Hiranyagarbha] shines forth His Light and Love from the horizon.

As such, His existence during a given cycle may be compared to the burning of a candle. The metaphor is ancient, only the provided artistic depiction [origin and original intent of the artist, unknown] is new.

Notice the candle, created by the reflection upon the waters. Here you have the Mystery of the Logos, with its relation and implication upon, through and for the Waters of the Deep.

Notice that the Light reaches verily up to and upon the edges, or periphery of the sandy shore, even while it is reflected upon the Water, and likewise as it pervades the Celestial Spaces of the Heavens `above.' Also notice that the Light IS the candle, quite literally, as it composes every aspect thereof, from wick, to base, to burning flame (the hot, circular orb of the Sun itself). What is the candle-holder, or its support?

The Earth itself (or the planet at hand, whichever it may be), what else! Likewise, we have been told, by Christ Himself, what is the First and Truest Temple of the Lord our God; and it is a LIVING Temple, though its brick-and-mortar substitutes often echo this not ...

Meanwhile, overhead, there is apparently a pier, or as near as we can tell a roadway which leads across the water, and appears to span *at least a measure of* the Ocean before us. One may assume it has been constructed by `human hands,' as this is the only obvious portion of the artwork which is not "naturally occurring," as we choose to term it.

No less is Humanity a Kingdom of Nature than all the rest, however, and this is the Key to 95% of the understanding ... so lacking in the fading theologies of yesteryear, the patristic depictions which cannot fathom how intimately and beautifully integrated, how already PERFECT, is all of Creation in its Wholism.

These outworn attempts to indoctrinate, dominate and ultimately to control the spiritual aspirations of mankind are doomed to failure, as they cannot behold, for all their pomp and circumstance, what is so evident, so simple and so obvious - yet so utterly Powerful - in the above piece of digital imagery.

The backwater theologies of vicarious atonement and blood salvation have forgotten, if ever they understood, that a veritable SUN also resides at and AS the Living Heart of every Person ... and this is the God that slumbers within, awaiting the time when {S/He} is called to Life, called to Action and DEMONSTRATED both inwardly and upon the stage of outer events.

Modern physics, Grand Unified Field Theory [or GUFT], astronomy and other sciences, with their recognition of Dark Matter and Dark Energy, fully acknowledge and provide for what will increasingly become a spiritual understanding and vital framework for appreciating our relationship with God ... already present, already active, already operational and much more IN-the-Becoming than either existent or non-existent, as depicted in the black-and-white, muddled and meddling theologies of exclusionary soteriology & eschatology.

The artwork here speaks to me of the SUN of Divine Potential, yet it shows beneath the pier as the completed, or relatively complete FORMLESS [Sanskrit `arupa'] Form of Platonic theology, the Augoeides of Porphyry and Plotinus, the `Causal Body' [Karana-Sarira] of Theosophical Teaching.

Composed of LIVING strands of the Light of the Sun Itself, behold the true Temple of Solomon, whose Glory cannot be captured in a piece of artwork, though whose Beauty has certainly been echoed in art, in poetry and in the living Word of the Logos ~ wherever, whenever and however this takes form [expression].

Think you that if a MAN (or Woman) may echo this Glorious Beauty and the Promise of Perfection in various artforms and in the spoken word, as also in altruistic SERVICE to one's fellow <Human and non-Human> Being(s) ... think ye not that there is a such a Living Temple of God's Glory within us? That person who would speak of finding our fulfillment "IN Christ" or withIN the Heart of God must also understand that there is a MECHANISM, or a modus operandi for such Divine Communion.

Else, despite his desire for simplicity, and notwithstanding his great efforts to communicate how NATURAL is this Revelation (of God, to Man, via Christ) ... he shall utterly fail to place before his peers a METHOD, a PATH or a WAY by which such approach may be undertaken. For while the Christ was able to demonstrate, through every thought and deed and word this same Relationship which He desires (as does God) that we might experience, and maintain ... certainly Christ also taught the Path to such attainment, as well as the ONLY sure way to safely guarantee this attainment, both for oneself and for ALL OTHERS.

Shame on him who would: A) fail to recognize the INCLUSIVITY of Christ's Message, yet especially him who would: B) in his folly, and owning to the lack of appreciation of the same Inclusivity, begin to preach a doctrine out of sync with that of His own professed Savior and Teacher. For while the motive already suffers at the first error, and his philosophy become plagued by shadows & demons as a result, certainly his karma will bear the marks of his offense at every disservice to his fellow men ... and this, as we should well know by now, is a thing which HE must correct (in this or some future incarnation).

Supporting the pier itself from its beginning [here, on the shore of incarnate, embodied existence] in a way which will not occur to some, there is a Sun-in-Miniature ... and it serves the same role in the Spiritual Anatomy, in the unseen Constitution of Man, as does the Sun at the Heart of His Solar System [study St. Paul, and the mysticism of St. John, if the Platonics are too heady for you].

Verily is the Sun, our Heart, the Christ ... even as the Heart of the System is the Logos of esoteric, hylozoistic philosophy and revelation.

Research every link I have provided, study what is now available to every earnest seeker, make thyself humble in your approach ... and lay down that which does not suffice, taking up instead precisely those tools as every carpenter knows are required for the Building Work ahead.

Insist on banging away at everything with a hammer, and don't be surprised when the foreman calls you aside, reminds you that you have better skills than these, and that in fact, THIS job is not quite the same as repairing your grandmother's outhouse. LISTEN to Him as He instructs you in the use of the Square, the Rule, the Compass and the pencil. For the pen has *always* been mightier than the sword, and until one can lay down one's vainglory dreams and visions of a conqueror-God, come to bash in the skulls of one's oppressors, and rectumfy (sic) the errors of others' ways with mace and ball and chain, one will continue to experience disappointment that the `old ways' are not being honored, that God's Name is not yet written within every human heart, and that in fact, there continues to be a `falling-away' which brings such sorrow. Think you not that I am aware of this, too, or even of your own dismay, your own disappointment, and your own concern?

Walk the Path, as you would have others walk it ~ and Trust ME to do likewise, where `Me' is your Fellow Man ~ and TRY, do TRY, to remember the importance of Inclusivity. No less, is the Teaching and the Way of the Buddhas and the Christ ~ the Bodhisattva Way, the Way of Loving-Compassion.

Bash others over the head, tell them that their Theosophical ideas are unfounded, that their philosophy is lacking because it does not TOWER over others ~ the same way your own mistaken notions LOOM large on the horizon of your own spiritual future ~ and watch how the masses scatter and run. For they will have no more, most of them, to do with such vanity, such foolishness and such nonsense. They know better, and they do not wish to hear of a Lord who will simply come and bash their foes into tiny bits ... as they have seen all this before, they have heard all of that crap now for thousands and thousands of years, and they WANT SOMETHING BETTER.

If you cannot give them the Christ that is TRULY desired by, and within, EVERY Human Heart ... at least get out of the WAY of Those who are TRYING to do the same ... and perhaps you'll get past the bread and circuses one day, when you've had a Revelation or two of your own.

Don't get burned up; don't get jealous and vituperative and all hot'n'bothered.

If you want, GET EVEN, but do so wisely and by outdoing your Brother on the Path. Show that for all his learning and loving language, nevertheless he has a LACK ... but either MAKE UP FOR that lack, with the appropriate, lacking LOVE of your OWN ~ or else stay out of his way as HE FINDS, then DEMONSTRATES, said Love?
(I will leave this as a question, for certain reasons.)

Anything less, and certainly when it is diametrically opposed (thereby against the Christ, against the true Nature of the Soul) ... is to serve the Adversary. And one thing about his camp that I have noticed: They aren't there to smile upon you and bring you good fortune ~ but yes, they will tell you EXACTLY what you want to hear. :(

Thus listen, and try not to be blinded, Brother, even if I too tend to be, or experience the same ... when I stare too closely, too directly, at Father Sun.

If you're going to start that crap again about failing to recognize Sol Invictus, then you know, you gotta go to the back of the bus ... learn about sex from those kids like everybody else ... and when you've been reminded about the BASICS, then yeah, you too may slowly move forward again, hopefully doing somebody else a little good along the way, as you move toward the front of the bus, verily, even behind the Bus-Driver, Him or Herself.

Did I ever tell you about some of the bus-drivers I've known in the village not far from my own? Ah, well ... ask me sometime, and maybe I'll tell.

Meanwhile, I have Thanks to give, Gifts to offer ~ and an offering or two to make.

If you want to play tag, that's okay too, but do me one favor:

Stay OFF of these blue suede shoes, okay friend? ;)

Yes, or just be yourself; I've quite gotten used to it by now. :rolleyes:

Choice is yours. If ONLY ... you could even glimpse that, for the faintest fraction of a sliver of a nanosecond ... :eek:
 
Posting something like that does little to foster interfaith communications, I fear. I prefer for the test to be parsed and discussed a little at a time (like I am truing to do with the Dzyan.

One thing we can learn form "Post-modernists" is that meta-narratives are inevitably questionable: they are incapable of displaying veracity, verifiability, or validity. The bigger the narrative of an idea, the greater the probability the idea is flawed.

All meta-narratives are flawed. If it required that all of it be true, it must then be false. A (classically) metaphysical system must be open and incomplete because the Kosmos and our knowledge of it is open and incomplete.

So, give me some fundamental idea or principle.
 
Dec 25th was the shortest day of the year at the time and virtually all religions all across the planet have always considered it special, usually their biggest celebration.

That one "sun of righteousness" just sounds like allegory.

But light is a very big deal to the Mandaean followers of John the Baptist, and worth noting the mention of John in GJohn, is all about light. A lot of the sayings of Jesus, particularly the historical Jesus also refer to light. The Mandaean religion is focused on The Place of Light. Sorta like Heaven, you go there when you die, and then return to another earthly existance later. Jesus obliquely refers to it. It's an abstract idea, and light also means "enlightenment" knowing the true nature of things, but one could argue The Place of Light could sure be the Sun.

Lots of examples if anyone is interested.

Was Jesus worshiped as the sun? I found this quote in Joseph Shipley's The Origins of English Words which seems to imply that he was worshiped as a solar deity:

"In A.D. 386 Pope Siricius decreed that Jesus' birthday be celebrated on Dec. 25. Speculation sets it, historically, "between May and August"; but St. John Chrysostum (Gk. khrusostos "golden-mouthed") explained "The worshippers of Mithra [Persian deity of light] call December 25 the birthday of the sun; but is not our Lord the sun of righteousness?""
 
Who are some of the other Solar Deities? I count Horus, Krishna, Christ and the Lamb of Revelations. What others?

Apollo.

If you want a pagan interpretation of the Christian story, it's Moloch Worship.

Solomon built two Temples, one to God on the Temple Mt and one to Moloch on the nearby Mt of Olives. Fathers would sacrifice their sons. The lamb of their fathers. They'd be fried alive in a frying pan and then dropped into the fire. As Jesus was supposed to have been in fire for 3 days.
 
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