Heaven and Hell are anthropomorphic constructs...

[Thomas]

I don't think Jesus went into the desert seeking Bliss.

Why would anyone think that?
He went to be tested.

'Bliss' isn't in Scripture, nor is it the goal. The bliss most commonly spoken of is a sought-experience, and is a side effect, it's a form of intoxication. Anyone using bliss as a yardstick is missing the point.

Bliss in that context was more the aim of the eros-oriented mysteries of the GrecoRoman world.

'Rest' and 'peace' would seem to correspond to bliss, but really the terms are contextual. There's not much bliss on offer in this world in the Beatitudes.

He already had that.

Really? Whatever gave you that impression? Certainly not Him. He knew what He was facing, and that time was short ... The Passion shows no indication of bliss, and His whole human existence was heading towards that turning point.

If there is any moment of 'bliss' or 'rest' signified in the life of Our Lord, it is the surrender on the Cross (cf John 19:30).

Heaven is communion, hell is solitude ...

God bless,

Thomas

 

[Nick the Pilot]

Andrew,

Jesus went into the desert in order to undergo a great Initiation. Buddha went through the exact same thing, and Buddha's story (the temptation of Mara) is well documented in Buddhist sutras.

An Initiation is all about facing temptations -- drugs, sex, alcohol, you name it -- and showing they hold no interest for us at all.

Jesus went into the desert because he needed a safe, isolated place to undergo the Initiation. During an Initiation the physical body is left unattended for days or weeks. The physical body must be protected during this time. This is why Jesus went into the desert, there was no other place he could leave his physical body safely unattended for days or weeks.

This is the purpose of the Egyptian pyramids. They proved total security for a person's physical body while they spent days or weeks enduring their Initation. Today the pyramids are open to tourists, and we can go and lay in the same exact spot the Initiates left their bodies as they endured their Initiations while astrally traveling outside their bodies. My friend recently visited the pyramids, entered the Intiation chamber, laid on the stone 'bed' and said it was a fascinating experience.

 

[luecy7]

I don't think Jesus went into the desert seeking Bliss. He already had that. He went into the desert to better understand his task and role in helping lead ALL of HUMANITY to that same Bliss-Consciousness. I think if you'll check with him, this is what he will tell you ...

I think Jesus would say that as you are ready to follow him: prepare to be tormented, and pick up your cross.

...and be ready to open your Heart and mind. Otherwise, you're really just whistlin' Dixie. Some of us have pulled our pistols long ago ...

... but if you miss the reference, our aim is to shoot to disarm, not to kill. We may occasionally nick a man on the hand, yet this is not our intent. Well do we know, Practice makes PERFECT (sic)!

I think you are somewhat correct: both heart and mind. I do still get asked frequently to travel and raise a gun. My aim though is not to kill, nor to disarm, my aim is to arm and re-arm. On the side of engineering the weapons or the targets, I aim to engineer the targets. On the side of using the weapons or the targets, I aim to use the targets. I aim to do good, but I do aid, placing faith in both the good and the evil per their will.

Heaven and Hell most certainly exist, but if you want to understand all things relevant, ask those who have been through both, who either reside in such conditions or have done so for extended periods ... and/or, perhaps best of all, who have triumphed over the trammels of matter - and the thirst [trishna, tanha] for embodied existence, altogether ~ and *transcended* the same.

Having done so, and making it a habit to follow in their footsteps (as some acknowledge), we too may arrive at our Destination. Along the Way, we may even help others who are receptive and hungry for Truth. True, we cannot force the food into our brother's hand and make him take a bite, yet we can show him the food on the Table, prove its nourishing value by eating likewise and continuing to LIVE ... and in his moments of doubt or denial, we may encourage him to quench his thirst, satisfy his hunger.

False! A train car does not see the path ahead, nor drive itself off the track. The train car simply follows, and it is made mindless without locomotion. As a person ventures off the track they may be living, using their heart and mind. The heart and mind can be used to do good, and the heart and mind can be used to do evil.

"Water of Life am I, poured forth for thirsty men."

I will, however, tell you how tasty & Wonderful this stuff is ... and plenty more, if you ask.

Well spoken by a wholesale liar. It is made to rain here on both the good and the evil. Water is necessary for the body and mind. Too much will kill it.

 

[Ecumenist]

Nick,

Sounds like Jesus was preparing for something we all must face. How absurd to think that he did not have to undergo, at some point, precisely what we all must undergo. The theology utterly falls apart, falls flat on its face, if the man wasn't as `ordinary' and besieged with human frailties, including possibilities of [temporary] failure as WE are.

Thus, in the same way that the Divine triumphed over the iniquity within the heart of chrestos Jesus, may that same Divinity triumph over the Dweller within yours and mine!

May the Christ within awaken in every human being!

Let Love stream forth into the hearts of men.
May Christ return to Earth.

Namaskar

 

[Ecumenist]

Thomas,

Yes, Jesus went to be tested, even as you and I are ... even as you and I shall be, once we reach the stage of the Path which the Galilean Master was treading at that time. He knew Bliss already for himself, and he knew it was possible for you and me, else he would not have bothered with the Work.

Why do I think it? Because to do otherwise would be folly.

Perhaps if you experience it, and when you can say, "I, too, know Bliss-Ananda," then you will grasp the nature of the type of experience we are aiming for. The Peace and rest you mention are also necessary for the spiritual life, yet until you can understand them in say, the context of the simple `Jesus Prayer' as practiced in the monasteries of Orthodox Christianity in Russia, in the Ukraine, etc., you will continue to complicate matters ... and the mind will slay the Real at every juncture, every CRUX.

Again, perhaps if you would communicate with Christ, or Jesus, within the HEART ... and get out of your head for a moment, you would know the BLISS which the Initiate Jesus knew 2100 years ago. It is the same which the Christ knew and taught to others (in terms of methodology, a PATH of Spiritual Approach, via DISCIPLINE ~ as in Bhakti, Karma, Raja YOGA) as Sri Krishna ... and while certainly it is not the sole *object* of the practice of true Christianity, it is clearly a great deal closer to the goal (and brings us to that) than filling the coffers that we may purchase more ornate candlesticks for the empty sanctuaries ... candlesticks made of purer GOLD. Of course, torturing peasants with thumbscrews and bending the laity to our human will is what Christianity means to some. And while I do not pity them, I shudder when I think of their fate. And I weep.

No, Thomas, the agony of the cross was felt only as the Christos, and as chrestos Jesus looked into your heart, and mine, and recognized that it would require another cycle (and perhaps then some, as is apparent), at least 2100 years and many, many bloody, needless wars ... much poverty both of mind and spirit, not to mention physical circumstances, and much unnecessary suffering on every level, before the TRUE CHRIST would be known and felt, understood and recognized, shared with the world ~ and made able to REDEEM it.

But I speak of things which are beyond exoteric doctrine. And I know we are in a different camp when it comes to that. I would gladly lay my thoughts on the table, and my head on the proverbial chopping block, when it comes to that, but like another I seem to recall quite well, all you desire is the dance and a silver platter - displaying yet another prize for your collection. And in this case, ye shan't have it. For I've a heart within my head, as well as a head within the heart ... and frankly, I quite prefer it this way.

Heaven is Communion; I quite agree. Solitude, however, is not Hell, old chum. Rather, it is a necessary stage and condition of our embodied human existence ... and for all we know, of part of the Journey to come. It is important enough that we are incarnate here, upon this planet, to master such conditions ... and to bring the COMMUNION to all others, especially those who currently lack it, or have forgotten it (and its importance), or who will be a long time coming before such has been developed as a *permanent* condition of the heart and mind.

Thomas, I think you mean that being APART from God is Hell, and with that caveat, or qualification of the word `solitude,' I quite agree. As such, this can and does occur in the physical world, the astral world, and also in the world of lower mind ... where your experience of reality, like that of many, is defeated by the chimeras of the past. Perhaps the Bliss will come, before you're gone, but if you can confidently say that you have attained an inner Peace, if you can say that at present you feel a needed `REST,' and if you are certain that in these moments of strength and respite you are growing *closer* to the Lord (via your own SOUL) ... then more power to you.

On the other hand, since I know what I know, it is not power which I would Send, or Hope that you experience and encounter the same. Rather, it is the same Love-Agape, which is not different than the BLISS-Ananda whereof I speak. For to become enraptured by such Divine Love within oneself is to KNOW that boundaries do not exist upon the Buddhic plane as you and I are used to experiencing them here in the physical, or mental, and *expressing* them, via verbal sparring, or aimless discussion.

No, my aim in your case is either to uplift, and show the way, or to fold my hands in prayer, and wish you on YOUR way. For you know not mine, or in about 95% of the time, whereof I speak ... and I forgive you, just the same, for your nescience. I do, because unless you are a consciously sworn adherent to the path of Darkness, I know it is but human error, as is also mine, and to a certain extent unavoidable (if clearly to a good degree otherwise) ... though I do wish people like you and me would hurry and pass our TESTS in the Desert, that we might be of FURTHER and Greater Service and usefulness to the Christ, to the Master J., to your own Teacher (beginning with the SOUL, which you may term `Spirit' in your theology) and to ALL of the Great Ones at this time.

That, however, is up to YOU. And me. And to each of us.

Namaskar

 

[Ecumenist]

leucy7,

Yes, we are tormented, and carry our own cross ... and if we have occasional regrets (either in a moment of weakness, or even in due thoughtfulness, wondering wth we're doing and WHY), THESE TOO SHALL PASS.

Regarding target practice, I prefer to think in terms of a `Love Gun,' with apologies to the band K.I.S.S. ... though I do quite like some of their noise, including said tune (the album's not much, otherwise), and also the context & implication.

But the `Love Gun' which I imagine begins with the P.O.V. gun which we learn about through Douglas Adams' HHGttG. Start with that, and before you go trigger-happy, imagine that only when we practice true *Harmlessness* is it safe to shoot another individual; for even our unpleasant emotions, moodiness or confusion are potentially useful to our fellow humans, if we are practicing properly the type of Communion of which Thomas speaks.

The new movie version of HHGttG conveys this adequately, with Zooey Deschanel as Trillian at the trigger, giving Zaphod (Sam Rockwell) a `piece of her mind' (heart, emotions, P.O.V.). Perhaps if others were able to recognize what each of us has been through, via the proverbial `walk a mile in my shoes' experience ... there would be less fighting, less enmity, less bloodshed. Or perhaps not, yet I know where I'm placing my chips ~ for I can see the future, and I know it well enough to count myself a spiritual millionaire ... as already I have many times over, probably also in many, many prior incarnations.

But getting better at Harmlessness, Self-forgetfulness and Right Speech means that we earn the right, and the Responsibility, of arming our Love Gun with the Love-Agape of the Christians, the Bodhichitta of the Buddhists, and the Brotherhood-in-Action, or Livingness, of Theosophy and Agni Yoga. It means we earn the right, and learn the spiritual skill required in order to be of service to the human and sub-human kingdoms as never before, and to cooperate with those spiritual Kingdoms with Whom and which the other four Kingdoms share the planet.

It is a high calling, and a difficult one, to become a Lawman (Dharma holder) of such rank and Order. On the other hand, there are some paths which bring more than `their own reward,' and once we have learned that ALL reward may be at least in essence transferred to those who *need* it more than we do, we are well on our WAY ... the Bodhisattva Way, if we have chosen this path.

But of course, such is almost meaningless if our personal theology echoes only the sentiment of ... reward for self, Heaven for me, and a coin tossed to the `needy' every now & then, or a soup kitchen label turned, that I may ease my Conscience and smile at night when I say my `prayers.'

Perhaps you are on the wrong train. Perhaps you have not looked up recently to see who you are following (the car ahead) or to consider the long line of cars following YOU. Perhaps, as you discover that indeed, your calling includes the challenge to LEAD, perhaps YOU are beginning to balk, to shudder, and even to cringe as you recognize the path ahead.

leucy7, do you remember the story, or might I ask you to look it up on the web, of the `Little Engine That Could?'

Try not to create demons, or imagine monsters, where none exist ... or where they didn't before you gave birth to them. Children do not need to hear that ~ even though they are on the road to a better future, there will also be such dark times that many of them will fail (in the present lifetime), will go hungry, will suffer NEEDLESSLY because of how selfish and greedy much of the West has become ... [nor do they need to hear] that Death is an evil, an enemy, any less than a welcomed Friend who comes to greet us all, at the appropriate time, and lead us onward.

Children need encouragement, they need Optimism, they need to be shown THE WAY. Yet the beautiful thing about Children is that their Hearts are open, their minds are not closed; they WANT to learn, they WANT to apply what you teach them, and they DO NOT need difficult, complicated theologies, or bucket-patching, as I call it, because at heart, in their true nature (as mine, and as yours), they are already SOUND, if not yet also Whole ... but mostly what they want to know is HOW they may better be able to `hold water,' and to share it with ALL people they know, family, friends, AND STRANGERS.

This is the Water of Life [Aquarius, the Christ, the Soul-infused Mind ... Buddhi-Taijasa, Manas-Taijasa] ... and this is something children understand because they are BORN with it, and the tabula rasa has not yet been scarred (even though such can and does occur even from the time in the womb!). Unfortunately, our Sacred Planet is only gradually emerging into the recognition that such an Initiation has been taken by our Planetary Logos. Children are thus introduced to poverty, hunger, cruelty and shame from the earliest of ages, and the palimpsest of prior sufferings is readily revealed, such that the tabula rasa is defeated, old wounds are reopened, and even their spiritual calling in this particular life becomes short-circuited, added challenges being put in their way which are NOT a part of their individual karma.

Humanity must come together as never before, from the level of the family, the Community and small groups everywhere ... to the National, the International and quite soon, also the Interplanetary - which certainly has always existed [Brotherhood at every level, yet hitherto often below or beyond our conscious frame of reference ~ and now, increasingly, in FULL, conscious recognition and affirmation]. I pity, no, I say I REGRET that there are those who cannot recognize a Truth so simple that it only takes a few words to express it:

BROTHERHOOD is needed, in Conscious, Heart-recognized, Mind-affirmed ACTIVE AFFIRMATION ... PRACTICED, in whichever Path of Approach we most feel we are called to tread, AS A SOUL​

There is nothing hard about that; there is nothing inherently difficult, except as we recognize our place upon the train-track at any given moment. And if, and WHEN you do, be Positive. Remember to look up with a SMILE and to take a moment to Breathe, to search within for precisely the Peace and inner Poise which Thomas emphasizes. This is not so far away; this is not so hard to achieve, even if its practice will carry us to & through the stages of Adeptship, and beyond.

Even the Christ continues to experience, then EXPRESS and Teach, evoke and Invoke, Greater Love-Agape, Greater Peace within ... and more Conscious, Affirmed Recognition of all of the same in our external, physically-anchored mundane brain awareness.

But the Little Engine That Could?

S/He CAN, S/He DOES ... and S/He WILL continue to pull a heavy load, not toward something you, and others, and at least occasionally ALL of us tend to fear, or have misgivings about. You see, we are practicing TOWARD Perfection, and certainly we shall attain it, but yes, there are times when the strain is great, the path ahead looks bleak and men like John A. Boehner in the U.S. House remind us of human evil incarnate, at its zenith. Quite obviously Darkness is attempting to have its day, and it will do all it can to frighten small children, to frighten grown and mature adults, and most of all, to darken the lives of all who are especially weak, who are already destitute in one way or another, or in many cases, who have the MOST to give and to offer a struggling Humanity at this critical juncture in our evolution.

Many Americans (such as myself) are thrilled just to see that we have so much GOOD Leadership, and that obviously, the Hierarchy and Shambhala have so much `Good material' with which to work, thanks to the November vote. But many of us know that it is NOT therefore time to simply fold up shop, rely on `the other guy,' or rest on our laurels and expect the Kingdom of Heaven to suddenly manifest, overnight ... or even mystically-magically during the next four years. This is the wrong attitude; this is SLOTH.

So I would hardly call my Knowledge, my Wisdom and my contribution a form of gluttony, while I cannot deny (Truth, minus Pride, equals TRUTH) that my own awareness of metaphysical principles ... and Teachings regarding the subtle worlds, is enough to fill many volumes, and safely escort countless masses across the Field of Reeds. Yes, we have the ability within us to work miracles of sorts, and also in quite a few cases, the precise Gifts required: Seven in Number, as *every* Theosophist can speak of the 7 Principles, taught tens of thousands of years ago in the East, and prior & since in EVERY Mystery School and Major World Religion ~ even that of Thomas, probably your own, et al.

But if you recognize evil, eschew it; if you discover that darkness is eclipsing your LIGHT, do what needs doing to REKINDLE that Spiritual Flame ... and while some practices do demand Solitude (else the monks and nuns who go into retreat are obviously just smokin' crack and probably should become pro wrestlers and prostitutes), surely the TRAIN we are on is not a lone car, hurtling through the darkness without direction or purpose.

True, life can seem that way at times, or we can step off of the beaten path, yet if we are a veteran traveler (as are all who stop by, or post on these forums), it is a safe bet there are co-travelers not very far off ... and they, as much as (or more than) any desire greatly that we find and keep our WAY, if only that we may all the better show THEM the Way ~ to Moksha, Salvation, Nirvana, Godhead/Godhood and Liberation. Nuances matter, but all such are 2ndary to my point.

Well spoken by a wholesale liar.

Bind thy tongue, lest thee loose a demon ... and hinder thy efforts, and find thy way to darkness before thy time!

In short, your gun is loaded with the wrong type of ammunition. You may empty that clip, you may even attach a never-ending box of ammo and have at me with your .50 caliber. My dear, it doesn't matter that you send all the nukes and particle beam weapons on our planet against Virtue and against Truth. These are as pinpricks to an Elephant, and Ganesha is not amused. Nor perturbed, as Jagganatha shall crush every impediment, every prick of resistance ... nor does that Elephant kick against such, any more than these colors run, or bleed, or fade.

If you don't feel like traveling to Switzerland, leucy7, Thomas, et al, that is perfectly fine. You may choose to visit someday, and likely you will be welcomed. Meanwhile, the residents don't appreciate it when YOU become the liar by telling us the country doesn't exist, or that countless millions have not visited Her over the years ... some returning many times, as they quite enjoy it, for various reasons. Perhaps you have never visited my *state* ~ but even if I am the poorer for it, I shall not deny that you continue to live, in YOURS.

Do stop by sometime. You might be surprised.

Namaskar

 

[Thomas]

Sounds like Jesus was preparing for something we all must face.

I rather think he was tasting what we taste ... what He faced in the desert was not a test of his divinity, but a trial of his humanity. It's not something we must face, it's the human condition.

Thus, in the same way that the Divine triumphed over the iniquity within the heart of chrestos Jesus, may that same Divinity triumph over the Dweller within yours and mine!

Try and rise above the old dualist dichotomies and see Christianity — see a Revelation — in its true and proper light.

It's all about union in freedom and love, of two become one, not one overthrowing the other.

This is where the Self Power/Other Power issue appears as discussed elsewhere. Union with the Divine is a Gift of the Other, but the desire and assent to that union is the offering of the individual self. There is no force, no coercion, just love, desire, and will.

So both are about giving and the gift ... nothing to do with 'triumph' other than the overthrow of the old dualist outlook.

God bless

Thomas

 

[Ecumenist]

I rather think he was tasting what we taste ... what He faced in the desert was not a test of his divinity, but a trial of his humanity. It's not something we must face, it's the human condition.

If Jesus was not tested, then never was he truly a chrestos, as even you and I may become, and therefore he was never truly MAN. Perhaps He was an Avatar, yet the notion of his Humanity becomes a sham. Your dog and pony is a con job, and the theology falls completely apart.

If *we* do not have the Divine Potential, then neither did the Christ, or future CHRISTOS, as it [He] came to manifest in Jesus.

But of course, he told us of our true Potential as related by the Beloved Apostle (Chapter 14, verse 12), who was closest to the Master's Heart, and knew him so well.

Wist ye not what Jesus meant, dear Thomas?

Wiggle wiggle wiggle ....

* + Ephesians, Ch. 4, v.14 + *
Discover what is being intimated here, and you will have a measuring stick that may truly be used in any situation, in any effort to understand y/our purpose, y/our calling. Christ Jesus asked you apply this same measuring stick in your effort to understand the Nature of Man, as also God. It has everything to do with your Fullest Potential. Christ can see that. God can see that. Thomas, can YOU?

It's an open invitation, from Thy Maker to Thee. Care to take Him at his word, for a change?

It's all about union in freedom and love, of two become one, not one overthrowing the other.

This is where the Self Power/Other Power issue appears as discussed elsewhere. Union with the Divine is a Gift of the Other, but the desire and assent to that union is the offering of the individual self. There is no force, no coercion, just love, desire, and will.

Sounds like you're finally beginning to come 'round!

See, I knew you could do it!

 

[radarmark]

I rather think Thomas and I have entered the "House of the L-rd" from rather different doorways and different paths to that doorway. I am not saying our beliefs are the same... merely approaches and temporal results.

 

[luecy7]

leucy7, do you remember the story, or might I ask you to look it up on the web, of the `Little Engine That Could?'

I rather side with professor Keating of the movie, Dead Poet Society. Sure he could. In the movie he conducts an exercise demonstrating the mechanisation of train thought, and train movement.

Children need encouragement, they need Optimism, they need to be shown THE WAY.

You would do better to make the children your teacher.

Many Americans (such as myself) are thrilled just to see that we have so much GOOD Leadership, and that obviously, the Hierarchy and Shambhala have so much `Good material' with which to work, thanks to the November vote.

Instead you make leaders out of government, the ruling mafia, the head of a blind machine. You see leaders where I see wholesale criminals of the golden rule. If anyone here has voted or has been on the payroll of a government, you had best jump tracks and start learning another way of life. Before God or the world, who represents you? Before God or the world, who is responsible? Everyone with their faith in government to represent them before others in the world had best start learning the first word of the golden rule. I was on the train, I jumped the tracks, and I see the train from a different vantage point.

But if you recognize evil, eschew it

I rebuke it. I believe "not" is not the 2nd word of the golden rule.

In short, your gun is loaded with the wrong type of ammunition.

My gun is more like a pressure washer. What type of ammunition do you think I should use?

If you don't feel like traveling to Switzerland, leucy7, Thomas, et al, that is perfectly fine. You may choose to visit someday, and likely you will be welcomed.

So you are an expat? Dual citizen?

Meanwhile, the residents don't appreciate it when YOU become the liar by telling us the country doesn't exist, or that countless millions have not visited Her over the years ... some returning many times, as they quite enjoy it, for various reasons.

I am fairly certain I never said this, though such ill-defined forced boundaries are the product and teaching of dishonest self interested governments. Thomas?

 

[luecy7]

I rather side with professor Keating of the movie, Dead Poet Society. Sure he could. In the movie he conducts an exercise demonstrating the mechanisation of train thought, and train movement.

You would do better to make the children your teacher.

Here is another variation of a person conducting an experiment to demonstrate train thought, and train movement. Although her method was more dishonest with the kids at first, I believe many learned for the better.

Jane Elliott - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jane Elliott's Blue Eyes/Brown Eyes Exercise

In case the chain-of-command lovers are still around here, perhaps with plans to accuse me again of derailing a thread, or the other uncivil types that lurk here, I defend myself before I am banned again: This is posted to be directly on topic, squarely on the OP, whether or not anyone can see it.

-cyberpi

 

[luecy7]

I rather side with professor Keating of the movie, Dead Poet Society. Sure he could. In the movie he conducts an exercise demonstrating the mechanisation of train thought, and train movement.

I found the scene I was thinking of on youtube. Here it is.

"I shall be telling this with a sigh
Somewhere ages and ages hence:
Two roads diverged in a wood, and I,
I took the one less traveled by,
And that has made all the difference. " - Robert Frost.

I'd say: not for the sake of not conforming, but for the individual responsibility and sake of deciding what or whom to conform with.

 

[Thomas]

If Jesus was not tested ...

Never said that. Just not the test you imagine.

... then never was he truly a chrestos, as even you and I may become

Because He is Christ, we may participate in God. Please try and grasp the fundamentals of Christian doctrine, although to see it in its simplicity, you'll have to dump all that fabricated stuff that gets in the way.

... and therefore he was never truly MAN.

So you can rest assured you've got that wrong too, then, because He was.
Listen to Athanasius: "God became man that man might become God".

As you know I'm Catholic, please do not try and put spurious and illogical doctrines into my mouth, thank you.

Perhaps He was an Avatar...

You seem not to know who or what He is.

yet the notion of his Humanity becomes a sham. Your dog and pony is a con job, and the theology falls completely apart.

Your sham, not mine. You cock-eyed theology, not mine.

Seems to me you present a load of crap as if I wrote it, and then knock it down! Is that the Theosophical Method'?

Please don't try clever sophistry with me, it's patently transparent. You might impress yourself, but I think the list ends there.

You'd do yourself better if you actually tried to work through the fundamental illogicality of the distortions of Christian doctrine you're bought into, as I have pointed out on numerous occasions ... instead you just fill up space with 'white noise' and bluster to cover the tracks of your many errors.

If *we* do not have the Divine Potential, then neither did the Christ, or future CHRISTOS, as it [He] came to manifest in Jesus.

Oh Good Grief. You really don't get `Christianity at all, do you? If you did, you wouldn't be making asinine statements like this one.

When will you clock on that your Theosophy is an 'anthropomorphic construct' with no substance to it whatsoever, other than what it can steal from authentic traditions?

Sounds like you're finally beginning to come 'round!

To your way of thinking, heaven forfend!

God bless

Thomas

 

[radarmark]

Thomas, excellent reply. Ecumenist seems even beyond my "fringe" stance.

 

[Ecumenist]

Thomas is quite hopeless. I had some mistaken notions and was holding out ... to the very end, as it were.

It seems I was *just plain wrong*, there will be no more holding out ... and I believe it's time to just let him reap.

No, Thomas was a Jesuit long, long ago; and it was foolish of me to ever believe or hope for anything otherwise. I am not suggesting that one should be without Hope, or certainly Optimism and a Positive outlook. But sometimes, when the foolish teenager insists on learning the hard way ...

... you just have to step back and LET 'EM LEARN.

He will come 'round, but it won't be tomorrow, or next month, or next year. Likely this man will go to his grave as ignorant and blind as he is this day, though perhaps a little bit more closed-minded ... a little bit more hard-headed and hard-hearted, thus that much more shut off from his Christ, his God, his fellowman.

I do not pity you, Thomas. I simply hope you get that thumb outta there before the brown ooze coming out your ears stinks up the whole of the United Kingdom. Wash yourself off a bit, yes, and de-fumigate ... and perhaps you'll be able to accomplish something, if you ever get around to an earnest *change of heart*.

Otherwise, that stink will just keep at arm's length (or miles away) all the souls you're here to serve, and those of us who are tired of the CRAP will truly lose patience with you.

Certainly, if I want a boring, dried-up, backwards as hell, distorted, bone-dry and utterly, tragically mind-numbing account of what did NOT happen in the mind of God, or in God's Creation, in the relationship between God and Man thus far ... I'll come running to you.

Yes, if I need to be reminded at how utterly foolish a man can be, even when God is sitting right next to him ... if I need to see again the POSTER CHILD for the terrible slaying of the Real by the ignorant mind of ONE man, I shall search out Tom the Theologian here at `You Really Want To Be a Catholic But Don't Know It Yet.org' ~ and listen to his endless wisdom and wit.

Yes, friends, will wonders never cease. Shall we EVER find a day that we cannot bow down to our Lord God Holy Tom-`I-Know-Christ-and-He-sure-isn't-like-whatever-you're-telling-me' T. TruthTalker ... and fail to be thankful for all that his mighty, wondrous knowledge - oh! and FLAWLESS, fawless (sic) logic - doth provide!

Yes, Tom, I quite wonder how I shall EVER manage to tie my own shoes and floss my own teeth without you.

Oh wait, probably as easily as you have managed to press forward and live your life utterly empty and devoid of any connection with God, Christ or even the occasional THOUGHT or idea which might put you on the right track, and lead, even by ACCIDENT, in their general direction.

Yes, Tom, if you pissed into that fan long enough and hard enough, eventually (though not for a very long goddamn time) I am quite confident you would finally perk up and say, "You know, I do believe it might be raining out!"

And after you move your mouth there for a little while ... and can figure out that what the rest of us have been tasting isn't a nice refreshing Spring Rain, *either* ... ah yes, THEN you may discover, that neither is it what you've been dousing us (and yourself) with, all these years.

But of course, most of us with any sense have learned to stand QUITE a ways away when you begin to tell us what a lovely shower we're about to receive ... straight from, of course! ~ The very heart, and mind, and Holy Decree ... of YOUR GOD, smiling benevolently, upon US.

You'll find me standing ...











over here the next time you need me.

SO LONG!

 

[Ecumenist]

He's as blind as he can be
Just sees what he wants to see
Nowhere Man can you see me at all?

Doesn't have a point of view
Knows not where he's going to

I had forgotten more by my 18th birthday than you knew when you woke up today.
Yes, if the donkey's library here is any indication, I'd say you've been quite the collector;
But I'm afraid this isn't really the sort of Tizona we were after, Cardinal Sir.

Oh? Do tell.
Yes, well you see there's this notion the Buddhists came up rather a long time ago,
clever chaps. And they call it `Bodhichitta.'

Now see here, I'll have you know I've studied all about that, and {naturally I have an answer prepared for you with precisely the balance of fluff and finagle as required} -
I'm afraid that isn't going to cut it `up here,' as you're fond of calling it.
What do you mean?
It isn't about this here donkey, I keep telling you. Agreed, the Library's quite a marvel, but I think you have managed to forget all about the little road we're on. You have forgotten the other Pilgrims, you have forgotten the Man who *Leads* this donkey, and in such haste to spit in your Brother's eye you have been, that even despite apology and as many olive branches as he could gather ...
Yes I will have no more of it until the appropriate quantity and quality of palm fronds have been prepared, as we all know the Way must -
Must what? Be ready for His entrance? Yes I quite think we understand the visual, but only one of us here has any real notion of the meaning. I don't mind if you sift through the satchels, either, for I am still waiting on the man who leads the donkey.
I'm pretty sure I must be deceived. You are neither my Lord, nor my Shepherd, and I am quite confident now that in fact you must be a trick of the devil. Be GONE with you!
As you wish, M'Lord.

Needless to say, when the Theosophists found him, old Tom was in more trouble than your average Earthbound. I poked my companion in the astral ribs and had to laugh. I still didn't know who the hell he was, or really care, but a job's a job ... and I sure hadn't watched the old fool get himself into this mess just to leave him hanging at the last minute.
Nor did you, I might add. For though you wouldn't see him again in that world for many a long year (on your watch), Tom was able to look in on you, and after the exchange that followed, I think you never knew just how grateful he was ~ nor how fortunate you were that another instance of [let's see, it's a Romans verse, as I recall] managed to work itself out yet again.
Indeed, I cannot for the life of me figure out how all of you, even with Group Mind ~ and the Infinite IS ~ manage to do it ... yet I would say much more, on the slowing down of `Tim[e]' ... if this old fool were aware of what to do with a perfect John Cleese segue when he sees it. But for every missed queue from me, I'm as certain I've missed 5 from You! And from Who knows Who else. So the Observers Observe, the Healers Heal, the Telepaths Think These Things Through ... and I remain forever indebted, as Dedicated, to Service with, and Loving You.
Blessings.

So I will resume my novel, another time, likely in largely unrecognized lines ...

 

[luecy7]

I had forgotten more by my 18th birthday than you knew when you woke up today.
Yes, if the donkey's library here is any indication, I'd say you've been quite the collector;
But I'm afraid this isn't really the sort of Tizona we were after, Cardinal Sir.

Andrew is it? Who comprises your 'WE' that is seeking some sort of Tizona? Who are you addressing here? Who are you calling a donkey, and who are you calling Tom?

 

[Ecumenist]

Andrew is it? Who comprises your 'WE' that is seeking some sort of Tizona? Who are you addressing here? Who are you calling a donkey, and who are you calling Tom?

leucy7,

It's purely an imaginative encounter, and one I don't anticipate or look forward to for some time ... between Thomas, here at IF.org and myself, yet with the latter as more observer than participant.

When a person dies, the Recording Angel is present, in cooperation with the [person's own] Soul. There are often other witnesses, and in the days to come there will be those who do their best (often successfully, I might add) to orient the person to the next stage of their unfolding LIFE. Some of us will know this experience quite well, not just from `old hat' but also from careful preparation and a recognition of all the `players.'

So my post contains part speculation, part certainty (even if I invent specific details or dialogue) ... and I suppose the `WE' is the same We as will be present at any such encounter (between the *dead person* - Ha!) and the relevant participants ... though hardly at the `Pearly Gates' as some expect.

I wasn't seeking to be comprehensive, or particularly prophetic. I just realized, as 99% of the truth may be told in any fashion and still safely be unrecognized as such amidst the masses of glory-seekers, so it doesn't much matter whether we present the future as philosophical principle, as soteriological speculation, or even as a literal dialogue. Equally, anything uncomfortable or undesirable for us will be tossed aside ... in favor of whatever constructs we prefer or have been taught to expect. And thus, none the wiser but all the more confused at what seems to be taking place, many live on in utter oblivion to the fact that they have even died (physically), as their denial cannot allow for the sort of change that must occur. Indeed, I must at least on occasion ask myself in a sober, rational frame of mind: "Am I sure I'm `still here,' so to speak?" And if I am smart, just because I can answer, "Well I THINK so," I won't immediately assume that I've figured out the answer ... beyond a shadow, or the Veil.

Anyway, just ignore my musings. I would be wicked, if I pursued it all, but I suppose I can't pretend I wouldn't be delighted to see the old bugger squirm. In that, while I wish no particular harm, I just can't wait till his poor little ego returns - like the Grinch's Heart, yet in reverse direction - to a measure of its proper size. Who knows? Perhaps Scrooge's heart will expand, at that, either at the very same time ... or in the days and years to come? Only time will tell. But as I say, I do want to be there. The old fool won't know till a good ways down the road just how many of us have been earning tickets. I mean, how could he, right?

Oh well, All's well that ends well!

Namaskar

 

[luecy7]

So my post contains part speculation, part certainty (even if I invent specific details or dialogue)

Do you think that would be good behavior, or evil, if Thomas were doing it?

Oh well, All's well that ends well!

So you believe that the ends justify the means. Is that the morality of a Theosophist?

 

[Ecumenist]

Here is a link that will provide a more useful perspective than I may be able to ... with a precise account of what occurs at the moment most church-goers dread (hence their behavior).

Do you think that would be good behavior, or evil, if Thomas were doing it?

That depends entirely on his motive, combined with the manner in which he went about it ... since often enough our intentions are good, yet we fall short of our ideals.

Good dialectic.

So you believe that the ends justify the means.

Is placing words within another's mouth, or distorting what they say and drawing conclusions for them, the method of a lady, or a gentlemen? Or to put it another way, are you quite confident that you're accomplishing what you're hoping to here? At this point, the dialectic fails.

There is much difficulty, and much mischief, when people presume that their versions, their visions, of morality and `God' (pay no attention to that old fool behind the curtain there, Dorothy, even though your own dog can smell a rat better than *you* can!) ... are much more than just that.

Again, what I mean here is that we presume to know much, and even so find it wise to judge a little ... while to be certain there are many who presume to know only a little, yet also have no difficulty judging much. What shall we say of him who both presumes to know much, and judges likewise?

I have always heard it said that when a person knows a thing, it is no longer necessary to seek justification in the world, or vicariously, in and through the lives of others. Alas, what can the person who knows *not* do, except seek, and where errors are discovered, seek to correct those errors as best as she does know how?

A tale can be told from any perspective. It's what we have to lose or gain that may determine the degree and type of distortion. My, what ever should we do if we somehow learned a way to remove that almost-unavoidable distortion? What ever should we make of the world? And what do you suppose others would make of it, if they also managed to free themselves of even the distortion which attends much of what we witness, on a daily basis, from any point of view or frame of reference?

Is that the morality of a Theosophist?

I don't know, perhaps you should ask one. By no means does the foolishness you suggested I was implying (`The ends justifies the means') go with the outlook of any Theosophist I've ever known. But I know plenty of people who avoid this kind of logic who aren't Theosophists ... and also a few who appreciate Shakespeare.

My meaning, and reason for the reference, is simply that if you have an appreciation for the existence of the Divine Plan, you will not be worried about the small stuff ... the details which we typically `sweat,' as especially those things which we know we might like to change, yet also recognize we cannot. Distortion enters in, when a person becomes an absolutist about this position.

Tell me one thing you cannot change ... or even one, single thing which you can ~ and I will show you in few words how relative this all becomes, or is. It depends upon how you express it. Thus if I say that I cannot easily (or likely) make the Empire State Building disappear, then notwithstanding a quick phone call to David Copperfield, I have pretty much stated a thing you cannot argue.

But if you tell me, in 15 simple words, "You cannot make me think of a white elephant in the garage against my will," then do I really need to even try to answer you, in order to prove you wrong?

See? Koans really are fun. They just don't do as much good if we only spin 'em around on favorite occasions, or for kicks, yet never apply them.