Normal, Crackpot or Prophet?

[wil]

Talking to G!d

And G!d talking to you.


The Lord told me he was the right man for me.


I pray for G!d's guidance....I received G!d's guidance...


What is the difference between this and a prophet? The bible is full of the prophets...and what G!d told them. Preachers are all the time telling their congregants what G!d told them to do or say....are they prophets?


Then there is the guy at the corner talking to G!d....and the congregant who talks to G!d and gets 'revelation'....


Where is the line? In the various Abrahamic religions....how do you see the line between:

Normal....

Prophet....

Crackpot?


(I'm guessing all those outside of Abrahamic Religions would consider it all crackpottery?)

 

[NiceCupOfTea]

in Charismania its quite common to hear from the Lord, in fact we are often told that we should be hearing from the Lord all the time, obviously this puts quite a lot of pressure on people to conform.


does this make all charismaniacs prophets I dont think it does, having some prophetic gifting is not the same as being a fully fledged prophet I think, although I am not really sure why this is.

Crackpot, well if someone claims to be hearing from God then they are likely a bit wacko, I mean how do they know its the being called God and not some other entitiy or aspect of themselves, it strikes as a lack of integrity in many cases.

 

[wil]

I need help with first paragraph and last....is the last saying all those in the first are crackpots?


I actually guess we need to add a fourth category...fraud...and maybe a fifth....a fraud not with intent to deceive others for gain, more deceiving themselves to go along....conform?

 

[NiceCupOfTea]

I need help with first paragraph and last....is the last saying all those in the first are crackpots?


I actually guess we need to add a fourth category...fraud...and maybe a fifth....a fraud not with intent to deceive others for gain, more deceiving themselves to go along....conform?

not really.

I'm just relaying some of my feelings on the issue having spent several years in the company of charismatics.

 

[Dream]

in Charismania its quite common to hear from the Lord, in fact we are often told that we should be hearing from the Lord all the time, obviously this puts quite a lot of pressure on people to conform.

True. There is also pressure to do miracles, and a lack of miracles is a source of angst. There are many, many hours of seminars and sermons about preparing oneself to receive a miracle from G. To G a small miracle is as hard as a big one. You're unlikely to get a big one if you don't 'Receive' small ones. For that reason, whenever any tiny positive thing happens, individuals consider it to be a miracle -- evidencing they are under pressure to believe miracles.

Where is the line? In the various Abrahamic religions....how do you see the line between:

Normal....

Prophet....

Crackpot?

There are few 'Crackpots' that think they are prophets. People who claim to be prophets are often sane, very believable, able to look you in the eye, gentle and focused. In my experience they are also two-faced cons. There is nothing crazy about manipulating people other than the fact that it is evil.

 

[Bhaktajan II]

Talking to G!d

And G!d talking to you.

Let me speak what I have since childhood and that which I will always remember during the course of all encounters.

I have assembled several opinions on this one topic.

The 4 defects “flaws of conditioned soul” =

• mistakes;
• illusioned;
• cheating;
• imperfect senses”.

This is the symptom of conditioned soul.
It is very prominent now in this age of Kali-yuga.

Conditioned soul means these four defects—to commit mistake, to become illusioned, to cheat others, and imperfectness of the senses.

The scientists say that we do not know, that means imperfectness of sense. I am trying to see but the cloud is checking me, and I am considering beyond this cloud there is nothing.
That is imperfectness of my seeing. Not... It is not a fact that beyond the cloud there is nothing.

So these things are going on—cheating, illusion, mistake, and imperfect.
the conditioned soul has four kinds of defects.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
The first defect is that he must commit mistakes. To err is human. This is one defect of the conditioned soul.

Another defect: to be illusioned. Illusion means to accept something which is not: māyā. Māyā means "what is not." Everyone is accepting the body as the self. If I ask you what you are, you will say, "I am Mr. John; I am a rich man; I am this; I am that."
All these are bodily identifications. But you are not this body. This is illusion.

Being illusioned means accepting something which is not, phantasmagoria to be factual. Every one of us is under the impression that we are these bodies, but actually we are not. Accepting the body to be the self is called illusion, or maya.


The third defect is the cheating propensity. Everyone has the propensity to cheat others. Although a person is fool number one, he poses himself as very intelligent.

The third imperfection is that conditioned souls have a tendency to cheat. We have often heard a storekeeper say, "Because you are my friend, I won't make any profit off you." But in actuality we know that he is making at least 50% profit. There are so many instances of this cheating propensity. There are also many examples of teachers who actually know nothing but put forth theories in words like "perhaps" or "it may be," while in actuality they are simply cheating their students.


Although it is already pointed out that he is in illusion and makes mistakes, he will theorize: "I think this is this, this is this." But he does not even know his own position. He writes books of philosophy, although he is defective. That is his disease. That is cheating.

Lastly, our senses are imperfect. We are very proud of our eyes. Often, someone will challenge, "Can you show me God?" But do you have the eyes to see God? You will never see if you haven't the eyes. If immediately the room becomes dark, you cannot even see your hands.

So what power do you have to see? We cannot, therefore, expect knowledge (veda) with these imperfect senses. With all these deficiencies, in conditioned life we cannot give perfect knowledge to anyone. Nor are we ourselves perfect.

The four principal defects that are visible in the conditioned soul: imperfect senses, the propensity for cheating, certainty of committing mistakes, and certainty of being illusioned.

Our vision is so limited that we cannot see very far away nor very near. The eye can see only under certain conditions, and therefore it is understood that our vision is limited. Similarly, all our other senses are also limited. It is not possible to understand the unlimited by these imperfect, limited senses.

These four principal defects in conditioned life disqualify one from putting forth religious rules and regulations.

A living being who lives in the mundane world has four defects: (1) he is certain to commit mistakes; (2) he is subject to illusion; (3) he has a propensity to cheat others; and (4) his senses are imperfect. No one with these four imperfections can deliver perfect knowledge.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
A common man with all the four defects of human frailty is unable to teach that which is worth hearing. Let’s analyze them individually in greater detail.

1) One defect is that the conditioned soul is certain to commit mistakes. There is no man who does not commit mistakes. To commit mistakes is very natural in the conditioned state of life. Indeed, the popular saying has arisen: "To err is human."

2) Another imperfection of the conditioned soul is that he is sure to be illusioned. Being illusioned means accepting something which is not, phantasmagoria to be factual.
Ex: In the desert there is an illusion of water, and the thirsty animals become entrapped by such an illusion and run after water in the desert, although there is no water at all. It is just a mirage. The animals are bewildered. This is called illusion.

3) Every man has a cheating propensity, which is employed in business or money transactions. Although two friends may be living peacefully together, due to their propensity to cheat they become enemies when there is a transaction between them. A philosopher accuses an economist of being a cheater, and an economist may accuse a philosopher of being a cheater when he comes in contact with money.

4) The fourth imperfection is that the senses of the living entity are not perfect. Our vision is so limited that we cannot see very far away or very near. The eye can see only under certain conditions, and therefore it is understood that our vision is limited. Similarly, all our other senses are also limited. It is not possible to understand the unlimited by these imperfect, limited senses.

 

[arthra]

Talking to G!d

And G!d talking to you.


The Lord told me he was the right man for me.


I pray for G!d's guidance....I received G!d's guidance...


What is the difference between this and a prophet? The bible is full of the prophets...and what G!d told them. Preachers are all the time telling their congregants what G!d told them to do or say....are they prophets?


Then there is the guy at the corner talking to G!d....and the congregant who talks to G!d and gets 'revelation'....


Where is the line? In the various Abrahamic religions....how do you see the line between:

Normal....

Prophet....

Crackpot?


(I'm guessing all those outside of Abrahamic Religions would consider it all crackpottery?)

Well you know it kind of depends on the situation... People will label anyone they happen to disagree with a crackpot.. Jesus was called a blasphemer.. There were special names I'm sure for Muhammad.. so it depends.

There are in my view social criteria that could be applied..

Someone who has sacrificed their normal life for a truth that answers or responds to the needs of large segments of humanity...

People hear the Message and it has effect.. It draws and attracts us by it's cogency and power.

Having a perspective of history we can look back and appreciate the influence of a few Persons who with very little were able to affect large aggregates of people over time..

 

[Thomas]

Hi Wil —

I pray for G!d's guidance....I received G!d's guidance...
What is the difference between this and a prophet?

A prophet is a mouthpiece of God with regard to the community, over and above the individual relationship with God?

Preachers are all the time telling their congregants what G!d told them to do or say....are they prophets?

Depends whether the preacher is telling the congregation the Word of God (Scripture and Tradition) or his or her own opinion ...

Then there is the guy at the corner talking to G!d....and the congregant who talks to G!d and gets 'revelation'....

Hmmm

Where is the line?

Hard question. I'm not sure about other traditions, but in Catholicism, for example, the investigation is quite rigorous.

Drawing lines is difficult, I'm not sure there's a formula, it's more a case-by-case basis?

God bless

Thomas

 

[wil]

@ dream.... I tend to agree.

@ bhakatjan... I'm afraid I found it all interesting, but completely don't understand how it relates to the topic...

Hi Wil —

A prophet is a mouthpiece of God with regard to the community, over and above the individual relationship with God?


Depends whether the preacher is telling the congregation the Word of God (Scripture and Tradition) or his or her own opinion ...


Hmmm


Hard question. I'm not sure about other traditions, but in Catholicism, for example, the investigation is quite rigorous.

Drawing lines is difficult, I'm not sure there's a formula, it's more a case-by-case basis?

God bless

Thomas

If I read you right...you are saying that a priest/preacher that speaks of their communication with G!d.....unless it went beyond their congregants (to the community) it wouldn't be labeled as a prophet... But yes, I am inquiring speaking the word of G!d NOT as opinion, and NOT from scripture, but from alleged personal revelation. eg; G!d spoke to me and said ___________________________________ and we should do ___________________


Rigorous investigation? I'm aware there are 'requirements' 'standards' for saint hood...different thing right? Saints and Prophets. How are they related? All saints aren't prophets I don't think, but are all prophets saints? I don't think so either (but haven't a clue) is their relationship coincidental?

But if there is rigorous investigation...Has the Holy See deemed anyone a prophet lately? Who are listed as prophets?? (I'm also vaguely aware of an entire religion....the Ascended Masters....based on modern day Prophets (all reincarnations of past leaders )different topic? I don't know.)

 

[wil]

Well you know it kind of depends on the situation... People will label anyone they happen to disagree with a crackpot.. Jesus was called a blasphemer.. There were special names I'm sure for Muhammad.. so it depends.

There are in my view social criteria that could be applied..

Someone who has sacrificed their normal life for a truth that answers or responds to the needs of large segments of humanity...

People hear the Message and it has effect.. It draws and attracts us by it's cogency and power.

Having a perspective of history we can look back and appreciate the influence of a few Persons who with very little were able to affect large aggregates of people over time..

So with the perspective of History....modern day prophets.... Who can we ascend to that throne....vs...amazing thinkers/philosophers?

 

[wil]

Conditioned soul means these four defects—to commit mistake, to become illusioned, to cheat others, and imperfectness of the senses.

Let me correct that....it isn't that I'm saying it wasn't on topic....it is just that it is so much it befuddles my limited intellect.

If I read you correctly. There are no prophets, there are crackpots and con men only.

 

[Bhaktajan II]

Wil posted: @ bhakatjan... I'm afraid I found it all interesting, but completely don't understand how it relates to the topic...

Here is the opinion I learnt:

Depends whether the preacher is telling the congregation the Word of God (Scripture and Tradition) .......................... or his or her own opinion!!!!!!!!!

I posted repeated earlier that, in regards India's literatures, the Vedas proclaim:
Humans intelligence is "Illusioned", short-sighted, mistakened and out and out cheating.
We human species are mistaken, cheating, illusioned souls with imperfect senses [taste, touch, hear, feel, smell].

IMO, a prophet was typically protrayed as a jack of all trades ... but master of none" sort of person in society.

That is why there are seperate professionals for every field of endeavor.

:::::::::::::::::::::::::::
Now that we're on the subject of the OP . . .

I recollect that the idea in the Bible was:
One cannot proclaim themselves a "Messiah", but one can prophecise.

That to "prophecise" ergo, be a prophet, was an mystics' proragative. No?

It is the prophet who claims to be the "Messiah incarnate", that causes problems.

IMO the prophet was the "herald" of a coming 'change' ---and then, dis-regarded after the pronouncement was made.

I guess there could be a scenario where the "Herald" continued to issueforth daily announcements.

I am reminded of the old teacher's adage:
"Those who can, 'Do' . . . those who can't, 'Teach'."
aka,
"Those who can (be experts) 'Do' . . . those who can't (be experts), 'prophecise'."

 

[Thomas]

I posted repeated earlier that, in regards India's literatures, the Vedas proclaim:
Humans intelligence is "Illusioned", short-sighted, mistakened and out and out cheating.

Well that's a pretty damning statement! Man never acts for altruistic reasons? I can think of occasions when he/she does ...

With regard to a Divine communication, then the fallible human intelligence is 'infused' or 'inspired' by the Divine Presence.

I recollect that the idea in the Bible was:
One cannot proclaim themselves a "Messiah", but one can prophecise.

Yes. Prophecy is a gift among the many gifts of the Holy Spirit.

That to "prophecise" ergo, be a prophet, was an mystics' proragative. No?

Not necessarily. Prophets are not necessarily mystics, and mystics are not necessarily prophets.

I think the more important point is, from the Christian perspective, there will be no more 'Universal Revelation', as everything that is to be revealed, that is everything necessary for man's salvation, is revealed in Christ — He is the Eternal Word (John 1:1). The only 'secrets' that remain are the ones that man pursues for his own (questionable) edification — like the date of the end of the world, etc.

Whether or not the words of this or that person are a revelation, an inspiration, a fruition, an opinion, a lie, a delusion, etc., etc., has to be taken on an individual basis.

God bless,

Thomas

 

[Bhaktajan II]

Let me correct that....it isn't that I'm saying it wasn't on topic....it is just that it is so much it befuddles my limited intellect.

If I read you correctly. There are no prophets, there are crackpots and con men only.

The world is aplace of Sufferring [it's the 1st Noble Truth --Buddha].

We must be grace from above --just as mother nature is accommodating us. We must be stewards.

Causeless mercy, Causeless grace.

There is the distinction is yoga metaphysics:
1] Ascending process
and
2] descending process

1] is where the aspirant "ascends" to higher attainments/realisations etal by dint of the aspirant's personal endeavor.

2] is where the aspirant receives 'Grace'.

My understanding is that us grace is garnered via "Service to the servant".

Satsanga fixes one's determination, but the favor of grace is due to "service" to the mentors ideals.

This "personal association" circuit seems defacto considering how the same principle applies in all other mundane fields of endeavor too.

 

[Amica]

Wil,

In today's world when we hear people "talk to" God, we think they are nuts. And for good reason. Majority of those who claim to talk to God are doing things that are out of norm. They also say other things that are not what a sane person would do, for example:

I have a client who believes he talks to Jesus. Nuts thing is that he is originally Jewish (born into Jewish faith and of Jewish parents), but absolutely believes in anti-semitism (praises Hitler and loves swastikas) and other racial stuff. Also, this person believes the devil is his brother and that he got married in a church in Hell.

Now, that is different than someone who just has a message to tell me and that message is: believe in God, do good, give charity, respect parents, do not kill, respect neighbors, do not lie, help the orphans and the poor, etc.

Prophets pbut lived normal human lives: they lived, married, had homes, went through struggles, established states, were leaders, cried and laughed, and died. Besides the Revelations and historical struggles they faced, they lived normal, ordinary lives. And had they not received the Revelations, they would not have struggled so much in their own communities. They were revolutionaries for the freedom of hearts and minds.

 

[Menassa]

Talking to G!d

And G!d talking to you.


The Lord told me he was the right man for me.


I pray for G!d's guidance....I received G!d's guidance...


What is the difference between this and a prophet? The bible is full of the prophets...and what G!d told them. Preachers are all the time telling their congregants what G!d told them to do or say....are they prophets?


Then there is the guy at the corner talking to G!d....and the congregant who talks to G!d and gets 'revelation'....


Where is the line? In the various Abrahamic religions....how do you see the line between:

Normal....

Prophet....

Crackpot?


(I'm guessing all those outside of Abrahamic Religions would consider it all crackpottery?)

To distinguish a prophet from a crackpot the gauge or meter is in Deuteronomy 13 and Deuteronomy 18.

 

[NiceCupOfTea]

To distinguish a prophet from a crackpot the gauge or meter is in Deuteronomy 13 and Deuteronomy 18.

oh yeah right, Deuter 13

Deuteronomy 13:6-10

6 “If your brother, the son of your mother,[a] or your son or daughter, or the wife you embrace, or your closest friend secretly entices you, saying, ‘Let us go and worship other gods’—which neither you nor your fathers have known, 7 any of the gods of the peoples around you, near you or far from you, from one end of the earth to the other— 8 you must not yield to him or listen to him. Show him no pity, and do not spare him or shield him. 9 Instead, you must kill him. Your hand is to be the first against him to put him to death, and then the hands of all the people. 10 Stone him to death for trying to turn you away from the Lord your God who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the place of slavery.

 

[Menassa]

oh yeah right, Deuter 13

Also:

Deuteronomy 13
If a prophet, or one who foretells by dreams, appears among you and announces to you a sign or wonder, 2 and if the sign or wonder spoken of takes place, and the prophet says, “Let us follow other gods” (gods you have not known) “and let us worship them,” 3 you must not listen to the words of that prophet or dreamer. The Lord your God is testing you to find out whether you love him with all your heart and with all your soul. 4 It is the Lord your God you must follow, and him you must revere. Keep his commands and obey him; serve him and hold fast to him. 5 That prophet or dreamer must be put to death for inciting rebellion against the Lord your God, who brought you out of Egypt and redeemed you from the land of slavery. That prophet or dreamer tried to turn you from the way the Lord your God commanded you to follow. You must purge the evil from among you.

 

[radarmark]

Menassa, verily this is the "lynchpin" passage. No matter how many wonders and miracle a prophet may be responsible for, if that prophet says follow another G-d, RUN!

The problem is in the interpretation. Does the OT inevitably invalidate the Gathas, the "higher teachings" of the Tetragrammatron invalidate the simple ayings of E, the NT the OT, the Qur'an the Bible, the Guru the Qur'an, the Bahá’u’lláh the Sri Guru Granth Sahib?

Is there anyway to reconcile these without renouncing any one or the other?

 

[Menassa]

Menassa, verily this is the "lynchpin" passage. No matter how many wonders and miracle a prophet may be responsible for, if that prophet says follow another G-d, RUN!

The problem is in the interpretation. Does the OT inevitably invalidate the Gathas, the "higher teachings" of the Tetragrammatron invalidate the simple ayings of E, the NT the OT, the Qur'an the Bible, the Guru the Qur'an, the Bahá’u’lláh the Sri Guru Granth Sahib?

Is there anyway to reconcile these without renouncing any one or the other?

The secondary status we would have to look at if such an idea is brought up is the prophet's attitude towards the Law... God's word... because essentially if we take away the Law then there is nothing left.

Prophet says to believe in another god=false.
Prophets says to believe in Yaweh but not keep the Law=false.

Take Jesus for instance... from the little we know about him he is clear that he is not the greatest fan of the Law.