Are Mormons Christians?

IowaGuy

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I was having a talk recently with my Christian father-in-law (Southern Baptist). He says Mormons aren't Christians, that Mormonism is a cult and that Mormons don't go to heaven like Christians do.

How universal is the belief amongst Christians that Mormons don't go to heaven?

Why or why not would Mormons go to heaven?
 
This belief began as soon as the first Mormons appeared in the mid 19th century. It was a time when the USA was still largely a series of farms, and people were used to 'Circuit preachers' and small home town churches. It was a time of diversification among the faithful as well as division, and numbers of believers splintered off into sequestered colonies, communes and closed associations. Baptist churches, for example, frequently split over disagreements; but the Mormons were part of an openly prophetic movement under the leader of Joseph Smith which denied all other Christians.

According to the PBS website his teaching "Held that other Christian churches had long ago been corrupted, and that no authentic Christian church any longer existed." In other words the Mormons distinguished themselves by denying the validity of all other churches. Even if there were no other doctrinal differences this would automatically disqualify them as Christians in the eyes of most.

A famous scripture passage about this (I Cor 11:18-27) can be briefly paraphrased like this: "I have heard something bad about you. When you get together you break up into factions, because you don't trust the sincerity of each person's conversion. For that reason when you eat together it isn't the Lord's supper at all! You are picky about who you break bread with, but Jesus even broke bread with his betrayer on the very night that he was being betrayed! If you eat and drink in this unworthy manner, then you are guilty of the body and blood of Jesus."

So from the moment Joseph Smith appeared claiming all the other churches to be invalid, it was as if he announced to them that if they joined him they would be cutting off all other Christians. Christians therefore stayed away, and ministers tried to keep their people away, too. Over time the belief grew up that Mormons were not Christians at all, and so it was thought that they were destined for hell. I suppose.
 
I was having a talk recently with my Christian father-in-law (Southern Baptist). He says Mormons aren't Christians, that Mormonism is a cult and that Mormons don't go to heaven like Christians do.

How universal is the belief amongst Christians that Mormons don't go to heaven?

pretty universal in all the churches I have attended.

Why or why not would Mormons go to heaven?
 
as i understand it....the believe in Jesus...

Question them further and you will discover that the Jesus they believe in was married and fathered children. Their view of Jesus is different from the one the Bible testifies of.
 
Question them further and you will discover that the Jesus they believe in was married and fathered children. Their view of Jesus is different from the one the Bible testifies of.

maybe but they also have additional scripture, The Book of Mormon I believe,

does the Bible say Jesus had no children then ?
 
Question them further and you will discover that the Jesus they believe in was married and fathered children. Their view of Jesus is different from the one the Bible testifies of.

So, if you believe that Jesus was married & had children, then you don't go to heaven?

I'm trying to get at the core of why "regular Christians" would think that Mormons don't go to heaven...

Martin Luther broke away from the Catholic Church/beliefs, somewhat analogous to Joseph Smith breaking away from "regular Christianity", yet most Catholics that I know don't say that Lutherans are going to hell?
 
IMHO, what defines a Christian is to believe that Jesus was Christ. Do Mormons believe Jesus was Christ? Yes, they do. Therefore, they are also Christians. Now, this of going to Heaven, it is also my opinion that no one will. Why? Because Heaven is not a place to go to but a spiritual state of mind which, according to Jesus himself, is to be found within each one of us. Read Luke 17:21.
 
Now, now. Let's all remember that the Reverend Billy Graham took Mormons OFF the list of strange, dangerous and offensive non-Christian cults ... all in an effort to keep a black man out of the office of U.S. President.

And after all, what more proof do you NEED that Mormons are true Christians than to receive such an honor?

Less tongue in cheek, if any individual posting on these forums, or ever having done so, considers him or herself a Christian, then Mormons, fathers, father-in-laws and all ought to be so regarded by the rest of us - purely in the same way that I am actually an American, yet deserve the RIGHT to be considered a SPANIARD if I so choose.

In other words, who are we to decide whether another person is or is not actually a Christian? Let every Buddhist and Muslim GROUP, every religion or denomination CALL ITSELF CHRISTIAN if they like! I should hope most of us have the good sense to understand that in the only respect that matters, your good standing as a Christian (or Buddhist, or Muslim, etc.) is in fact something that is and must remain between God and yourself. How, does any of us suppose, it could be any different, in any wise, even if any of us WANTED it to be?

Excuse me for one moment while I step into the other room and squeeze into my Member's Only jacket ... from about 3 decades ago. When I return, I will insist that every one of you EXIT, unless you can produce exactly such a garment, and at least make the effort to squeeze into it.

By the way, it needs to be BLACK, like mine, and if it's any other color ~ it doesn't count.

But by all means, enjoy playing God wherever you decide to take your little party. I only know for certain one thing, and that's that those of us here in THIS room, wearing our black Member's Only jackets ... are the TRUE Christians, WE are the ones getting into Heaven, and WE are the only ones that God even recognizes when we pray at night. So as the Brits would say, for the rest of you: GET STUFFED!















And such nonsense is why I want nothing to do with Churchianity any more, be it the most exclusivist and narrow-minded Southern Baptist style, the high-and-mighty grand poobah focused Cathlick variety, or pretty much any of the remaining 99.9% in between. Here and there, in pockets which know full well who they are, what they are up to and WHY they are up to it, there are the brave, the humble, the unsuspecting (or rather, unsuspected by one's peers, in the most part) genuine Christian ... and these do as much as any other World Server to improve the world around - people, animals, environment, politics, medicine, communications, science, etc.

Would that we had more of such nature, far fewer who want only to play regular-holy-joe-by-day, super-christian-cop-by-night religious policeman.
 
Now, now. Let's all remember that the Reverend Billy Graham took Mormons OFF the list of strange, dangerous and offensive non-Christian cults ... all in an effort to keep a black man out of the office of U.S. President.

And after all, what more proof do you NEED that Mormons are true Christians than to receive such an honor?

Less tongue in cheek, if any individual posting on these forums, or ever having done so, considers him or herself a Christian, then Mormons, fathers, father-in-laws and all ought to be so regarded by the rest of us - purely in the same way that I am actually an American, yet deserve the RIGHT to be considered a SPANIARD if I so choose.

In other words, who are we to decide whether another person is or is not actually a Christian? Let every Buddhist and Muslim GROUP, every religion or denomination CALL ITSELF CHRISTIAN if they like! I should hope most of us have the good sense to understand that in the only respect that matters, your good standing as a Christian (or Buddhist, or Muslim, etc.) is in fact something that is and must remain between God and yourself. How, does any of us suppose, it could be any different, in any wise, even if any of us WANTED it to be?

Excuse me for one moment while I step into the other room and squeeze into my Member's Only jacket ... from about 3 decades ago. When I return, I will insist that every one of you EXIT, unless you can produce exactly such a garment, and at least make the effort to squeeze into it.

By the way, it needs to be BLACK, like mine, and if it's any other color ~ it doesn't count.

But by all means, enjoy playing God wherever you decide to take your little party. I only know for certain one thing, and that's that those of us here in THIS room, wearing our black Member's Only jackets ... are the TRUE Christians, WE are the ones getting into Heaven, and WE are the only ones that God even recognizes when we pray at night. So as the Brits would say, for the rest of you: GET STUFFED!















And such nonsense is why I want nothing to do with Churchianity any more, be it the most exclusivist and narrow-minded Southern Baptist style, the high-and-mighty grand poobah focused Cathlick variety, or pretty much any of the remaining 99.9% in between. Here and there, in pockets which know full well who they are, what they are up to and WHY they are up to it, there are the brave, the humble, the unsuspecting (or rather, unsuspected by one's peers, in the most part) genuine Christian ... and these do as much as any other World Server to improve the world around - people, animals, environment, politics, medicine, communications, science, etc.

Would that we had more of such nature, far fewer who want only to play regular-holy-joe-by-day, super-christian-cop-by-night religious policeman.


We shall know them by their fruits.
 
purely in the same way that I am actually an American, yet deserve the RIGHT to be considered a SPANIARD if I so choose.
That's just silly. I mean, all you achieve is rendering the term 'Spanish' meaningless, other than a subjective projection of your own determination.

By the same token, why not go for something with real social cachet? A Navy Seal? A brain surgeon? :cool: A holocaust survivor, or one of the few men to walk on the moon, or win a Nobel prize? :cool: x :cool:

Think big! :D

In other words, who are we to decide whether another person is or is not actually a Christian?
Well, by the above logic, anybody has the right to declare anything about everything, because how you define yourself inescapably defines everything else.

Let every Buddhist and Muslim GROUP, every religion or denomination CALL ITSELF CHRISTIAN if they like!
Yay! And let language be stripped of all meaning! Let us render everything an inoffensive blancmange, so we can all get along together!

I should hope most of us have the good sense to understand that in the only respect that matters, your good standing as a Christian (or Buddhist, or Muslim, etc.) is in fact something that is and must remain between God and yourself.
Oh dear, oh dear ... you've fallen into the secular agenda of driving God out of public into the private, of reducing the idea of the Divine to the purely personal. God has no place in the world, and by extension no place in creation. God exists purely in your own mind.

(The next step, of course, is to dismiss God altogether as nothing more than superstition.)

You should study Eastern Orthodox 'esoterism' (I use the term in its contemporary and misunderstood context). The communal transcends the individual. It's a notion totally at odds with the modern West, locked into the cult of personality, but it's axiomatic to the revealed Traditions.

Excuse me for one moment while I step into the other room and squeeze into my Member's Only jacket ...
Does that mean you're going to take your 'I'm everything I imagine myself to be and you are obliged to agree with me' jacket off? ;)

from about 3 decades ago. When I return, I will insist that every one of you EXIT, unless you can produce exactly such a garment, and at least make the effort to squeeze into it.
Oh no, no no! I'm with you — I've declared myself way beyond your tailored analogies.

But by all means, enjoy playing God wherever you decide to take your little party.
You're the one playing 'big pants' here, it seems to me. We're all naughty children, being given a good telling off! :p

I only know for certain one thing, and that's that those of us here in THIS room, wearing our black Member's Only jackets ... are the TRUE Christians, WE are the ones getting into Heaven, and WE are the only ones that God even recognizes when we pray at night. So as the Brits would say, for the rest of you: GET STUFFED!
:eek: The logical flaw here being you've opened this post be defending the right of whoever it is you're trying to offend to make precisely this kind of statement ...

...Here and there, in pockets which know full well who they are, what they are up to and WHY they are up to it, there are the brave, the humble, the unsuspecting (or rather, unsuspected by one's peers, in the most part) genuine Christian ... and these do as much as any other World Server to improve the world around - people, animals, environment, politics, medicine, communications, science, etc.
Ah! Brilliant! Ooooh ... let me guess ... why ... :eek: It's you, isn't it!

Yeah! Look at me! "I'm the only Christian in the village" (if you're aware of Little Britain?)

So let me get this straight ...

You do realise you posit an idea,
then you ridicule it,
then you ridicule anyone who dares to entertain such an idea,
then you claim the right to speak authoritatively for the very idea you've been ridiculing!

So, by your own logic ...

You are ridiculous!

And what the heck has this got to do with Mormons?

Thomas
 
IMHO, what defines a Christian is to believe that Jesus was Christ. Do Mormons believe Jesus was Christ? Yes, they do. Therefore, they are also Christians..

Even the devil believes in Jesus and trembles. Does this make satan a christian? The mormons believe in a false Christ. When we look at their many false doctrines, some are even blasphemous, we cannot in all truthfulness consider them Christians.
 
Iowaguy said:
Martin Luther broke away from the Catholic Church/beliefs, somewhat analogous to Joseph Smith breaking away from "regular Christianity", yet most Catholics that I know don't say that Lutherans are going to hell?
That was not always the case. In fact it depended upon where you lived and also in what century, but many and perhaps most Catholics did believe at one time that Lutherans and some other groups were definitely going to hell. Usually the feeling was mutual. Once a 'Christian' has cut off all others it sends a signal that perhaps they aren't one. This is probably why people choose to call such groups 'Cults' as the term 'Cult' refers to a very small group -- the very opposite of an inclusive and accepting group.

Between Catholics and Protestants there's a lot going on what with shifting doctrines and bad blood, but the basic truth is if you recognize someone's sincerity then they start to appreciate it and return the favor. It cannot be helped. Similarly if you cut people off, then they tend to do the same.

Falcon60 said:
Even the devil believes in Jesus and trembles. Does this make satan a christian? The mormons believe in a false Christ. When we look at their many false doctrines, some are even blasphemous, we cannot in all truthfulness consider them Christians.
Hi, Falcon60. Meaning no disrespect to you or to truth, the interfaith forums allow people of different beliefs to talk, and not every conversation is about salvation or who is right and wrong. Iowaguy is still interested in understanding what particular nuts and bolts make a Mormon someone not 'In the fold'. You say the mormons believe in a false Christ and have many false doctrines, but what doctrines specifically would make you draw a line? Not everybody is pentacostal or baptist and so on but still consider each other to be sincere believers, so obviously there are differences in doctrine which Christians are willing to overlook.
 
Christian = believer of Christ, the god incarnate
...well, at least this is the accepted norm. Some of course call themselves Gnostic Christians but that with the Gnostic emphasized...
You can call yourself anything but be prepared that others might challenge you....
Mormons may or may not call themselves Christians, but the term Church of LDS (latter day saints) is more common..
 
That was not always the case. In fact it depended upon where you lived and also in what century, but many and perhaps most Catholics did believe at one time that Lutherans and some other groups were definitely going to hell. Usually the feeling was mutual. Once a 'Christian' has cut off all others it sends a signal that perhaps they aren't one. This is probably why people choose to call such groups 'Cults' as the term 'Cult' refers to a very small group -- the very opposite of an inclusive and accepting group.

Between Catholics and Protestants there's a lot going on what with shifting doctrines and bad blood, but the basic truth is if you recognize someone's sincerity then they start to appreciate it and return the favor. It cannot be helped. Similarly if you cut people off, then they tend to do the same.

Hi, Falcon60. Meaning no disrespect to you or to truth, the interfaith forums allow people of different beliefs to talk, and not every conversation is about salvation or who is right and wrong. Iowaguy is still interested in understanding what particular nuts and bolts make a Mormon someone not 'In the fold'. You say the mormons believe in a false Christ and have many false doctrines, but what doctrines specifically would make you draw a line? Not everybody is pentacostal or baptist and so on but still consider each other to be sincere believers, so obviously there are differences in doctrine which Christians are willing to overlook.


Any religious group that believes in doctrines which clearly contradicts what God has said in the Holy Scriptures, are not true Christians. Any church that uses books besides the Bible are not Christians. Many of what Mormonism teaches come from the Book of Mormon, Pearl of Great Price, and their other writings which they deem are scriptures.

We have a responsibility to contend for the faith. The early church did this by having councils for the purpose of stamping out heretical groups and false teachings. The Christian church today adopts a more tolerant of other faiths views and this has allowed false religions to peddle their own gospel unchecked throughout the world.
 
Martin Luther broke away from the Catholic Church/beliefs, somewhat analogous to Joseph Smith breaking away from "regular Christianity", yet most Catholics that I know don't say that Lutherans are going to hell?

I remember seeing a documentary a long time ago about Christians in US politics, according to this documentary the concept of a 'Christians' as a single group (in a political context) is relatively new. It makes me think that there could have been less sympathy between the different groups at that time. Thoughts?
 
Christian = believer of Christ, the god incarnate
...well, at least this is the accepted norm. Some of course call themselves Gnostic Christians but that with the Gnostic emphasized...
You can call yourself anything but be prepared that others might challenge you....
Mormons may or may not call themselves Christians, but the term Church of LDS (latter day saints) is more common..


A lot of Mormons will tell you they are Christians. What they don't say is that they believe theirs is the One True church. That other faiths have some truths, but only the lds church contains all the truths.
 
Falcon60 said:
Any religious group that believes in doctrines which clearly contradicts what God has said in the Holy Scriptures, are not true Christians.
What if scripture disagrees? There is a sense throughout all of scripture that people are liars, and only God is true. I'm convinced that confessing your sins involves recognizing that on a continual basis. Since you are only a human being you can't ultimately know if you are right in the head. There is always going to be a difference between your own ability to have certainty and God's. When you have certainty its an amount of certainty, and anything beyond that should be considered a boast.

You can see here the author of Romans referring to this idea:
Romans 3:10-13 as it is written: "None is righteous, no, not one; no one understands, no one seeks for God. All have turned aside, together they have gone wrong; no one does good, not even one." "Their throat is an open grave, they use their tongues to deceive." "The venom of asps is under their lips."

I Timothy 4:1 refers to 'Latter times' and predicts "some will depart from the faith by giving heed to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons..."

I've heard varying explanations of what these 'Doctrines of demons' can be, but the underlying meaning of the root word for demon is 'Accuser'. I think that this is repeating the same idea of antichrist mentioned by John in his first letter. John 2:18 talked about the 'Last hour' and said many antichrists had appeared. These antichrists opposed Christ, that is they opposed the Mass. I'm sure you have read that the Church is the body of Christ, so an antichrist is someone who breaks up the church.

My suggestion based upon my life and observations in churches is that the churches continue to function if they don't get hung up on discussions about doctrines. The main doctrine is the doctrine that God reveals himself. Jesus identity is revealed to Peter directly, not by a compelling witness. What Jesus taught, if I may summarize, was that you cannot observe where the spirit comes from or where it goes; so you can't have a rigid set of 'Doctrines' but must instead have a Doctrine. That's a great challenge to people in church, but it keeps proving to be the case.

The basic rule of fellowship is Love, which is following the commandments; but when the children ask you what are the commandments they are Love. This follows from II John 1:6-10, that any disciple of Jesus must uphold this as the prime rule; not other rules. To refuse it is to be excluded from Christ. That among other things is why I recommend giving a lot of leeway to people to disagree about any particular thing as long as they are humble about it. Believing the Trinity for example does not seem like it would be a deal breaker.

This is not, obviously, the way most evangelicals see the Bible, but it is how an increasing number of people do. I think Mormons would not see it that way and are indeed exclusive based upon specific teachings which are therefore held to be more important than whether the person is loving.
 
"...Churchianity..."

laughing.gif


 
What if scripture disagrees? There is a sense throughout all of scripture that people are liars, and only God is true. I'm convinced that confessing your sins involves recognizing that on a continual basis. Since you are only a human being you can't ultimately know if you are right in the head. There is always going to be a difference between your own ability to have certainty and God's. When you have certainty its an amount of certainty, and anything beyond that should be considered a boast.

You can see here the author of Romans referring to this idea:
Romans 3:10-13 as it is written: "None is righteous, no, not one; no one understands, no one seeks for God. All have turned aside, together they have gone wrong; no one does good, not even one." "Their throat is an open grave, they use their tongues to deceive." "The venom of asps is under their lips."

I Timothy 4:1 refers to 'Latter times' and predicts "some will depart from the faith by giving heed to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons..."

I've heard varying explanations of what these 'Doctrines of demons' can be, but the underlying meaning of the root word for demon is 'Accuser'. I think that this is repeating the same idea of antichrist mentioned by John in his first letter. John 2:18 talked about the 'Last hour' and said many antichrists had appeared. These antichrists opposed Christ, that is they opposed the Mass. I'm sure you have read that the Church is the body of Christ, so an antichrist is someone who breaks up the church.

My suggestion based upon my life and observations in churches is that the churches continue to function if they don't get hung up on discussions about doctrines. The main doctrine is the doctrine that God reveals himself. Jesus identity is revealed to Peter directly, not by a compelling witness. What Jesus taught, if I may summarize, was that you cannot observe where the spirit comes from or where it goes; so you can't have a rigid set of 'Doctrines' but must instead have a Doctrine. That's a great challenge to people in church, but it keeps proving to be the case.

The basic rule of fellowship is Love, which is following the commandments; but when the children ask you what are the commandments they are Love. This follows from II John 1:6-10, that any disciple of Jesus must uphold this as the prime rule; not other rules. To refuse it is to be excluded from Christ. That among other things is why I recommend giving a lot of leeway to people to disagree about any particular thing as long as they are humble about it. Believing the Trinity for example does not seem like it would be a deal breaker.

This is not, obviously, the way most evangelicals see the Bible, but it is how an increasing number of people do. I think Mormons would not see it that way and are indeed exclusive based upon specific teachings which are therefore held to be more important than whether the person is loving.

A true Christian is one who has been spiritually born again. Jesus said we must be or we cannot see the kingdom of God. Does it matter if one believes in the Trinity, or in many gods? It certainly does. Let's say a man believes in the existence of zillions of gods on other planets and he is humble and sincere about it. He sees no reason to be born again because his church doesn't teach it. Do you believe we should say nothing to him simply because he is humble? Christ commanded that we carry out the Great Commission. He didn't ask, he commanded.

Giving a lot of leeway to believe whatever one feels is right can affect the difference between eternal life with God and eternal separation from God. Many Christians and pastors have become so liberal in their views that what God has revealed in His word has gotten watered down. Books like "The Shack" are embraced by many because it depicts a god who is all love and never punishes.

Yes, faith is activated and energized by love. But we can love someone straight to hell by never telling them that hell is real.
 
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