And the Whole Earth Was of One Language

[Bandit]

Language is about the movement of peoples. If a people grows, so does their language. Living languages grow, and morph, and absorb. Science uses dead languages, Latin and Greek, because these languages do not change any longer. But modern English, French, Spanish, German, Dutch are constantly changing as old words gain new meaning, and new words are developed or adopted. It was the same during the bronze and iron age, languages morphed, unless and until they were absorbed or wiped out. As people conquered or fell victim to conquerers, their language followed them and moved with them across continents.

So, if the world was at one time of one language, what language would that be? Sumerian? Akkadian? And/or did the oriental languages branch off from here as well, or were they already in existence? What ramifications does this have to the fabled Tower?

That seems like a good approach. Written language is going to require more rules than a spoken language. Sound and pronunciation is what we are seeing that was altered there in Genises, not necessarily the pictures or symbols they used. Just a thought.

Beside, we really only have to go back less than 4,000 years or 6,000 if we want to.
I also have the same consideration you do with the flood but more likely because it would have to only cover the areas that it was supposed to cover.

The only thing that gets me with most of the findings today is we all know there is a 'missing link', so that link may have nothing to do with what we want know anyway. Another thought.
The other thing that bothers me with the evidence (s) and carbon dating, is, it is all summed up to maybe, possibly, argumentively, perhaps, again perhaps, hopefully (but dont hold your breath) and supposedly.

So from that, if you allow me play the adversary a little bit and I can make it fun for us. If that is ok

IOW, you guys do all the work and I will just be there smiling.

 

[juantoo3]

Kindest Regards, Bandit!

Thank you for your post.

That seems like a good approach. Written language is going to require more rules than a spoken language. Sound and pronunciation is what we are seeing that was altered there in Genises, not necessarily the pictures or symbols they used. Just a thought.

Actually, it is from the development of the Hebrew language that I draw the conclusion that alphabetical languages began pictographically. I understand the Sumerian cuneiform to be constructed similarly, and there are enough tablets to demonstrate the development of that language as well. The Hebrew alphabetical symbols originally represented specific things. Off the top of my head I forget now, but it seems to me the first two letters, as example, aleph and bet, were represented by a house and an ox (I forget which is which at this moment). Also, hebrew letters were used to count numbers originally, there were no numerals. From this we can say that the symbols did not change drastically, but by the time the earliest manuscripts that became the Bible were composed, the symbology had developed into a written form of the spoken word. Traditionally, this would have been at the time of Moses during the wandering, but it is arguable as to exactly when in history this would have taken place. By my understanding, and there are people here far more versed than I, the Old Testament was consolidated during Solomon's time into more or less the form we know today, although the Jewish Bible keeps the books in a different organizational order than the Christian Bible does.

Beside, we really only have to go back less than 4,000 years or 6,000 if we want to.

Actually, the advent of agriculture, if I remember what I looked into a couple of months ago, was about 4000 BC, or about 6 thousand years ago. 2000BC would place us at the tail end of the bronze age going into the iron age. There was a concern I voiced a few months back about how the pyramids could be built with copper and bronze tools. We usually hear of the massive size of the stones, which is no small feat in itself. But those massive blocks were cut and polished by and with copper and bronze tools. Now, some of the blocks were limestone, relatively soft and easy to cut and shape. But a couple of sources say that granite was used extensively. Now, granite is difficult to work under the best conditions with modern tools. I still fail to see how granite blocks of such massive size could be cut and shaped with copper and bronze tools, the tools are too soft. About only going back 6000 years, that would be placing self defeating limits on the study. The 6th day creation was around and well, and the movements of such peoples are not to be lightly dismissed as for their interactions with the people of the book. If you please, salvation has been offered to all, including the 6th day creation.

I also have the same consideration you do with the flood but more likely because it would have to only cover the areas that it was supposed to cover.

Ah, whether or not the flood was fore-ordained. Well, I'm not trying to read God's mind. I'm only trying to understand what has passed, in order to better understand what is to come. As Solomon said, "there's nothing new under the sun." I have said I believe in God, but I also know I cannot prove God. The proof I have is personal, and insufficient to persuade another who has not had the same encounters or experiences. The academic argument about the existence of God is fun, but futile. The best I can hope for is circumstantial evidence.

The only thing that gets me with most of the findings today is we all know there is a 'missing link', so that link may have nothing to do with what we want know anyway.

Well, what do you, personally, want to know? I am not interested in validating or vindicating my personal biases. I want to know the factual truth, what really happened. Not what a collection of greedy, self-serving, self-righteous political types have polluted, confounded and twisted into a series of amusing but questionable myths over the course of several thousand years into a dogma that is force fed by social stigma into a brain wash attempt to pass fantasy for reality. I am looking for the kernal of truth behind the cloud of myth and politics. When and where that agrees with the Bible, well and good. When and where it disagrees, I wish to know that too. I do think there were a lot of well intended people who were involved in composing the scriptures, and there are very valuable lessons conveyed within. It is what has come about since then, historically, that concerns me.

The other thing that bothers me with the evidence (s) and carbon dating, is, it is all summed up to maybe, possibly, argumentively, perhaps, again perhaps, hopefully (but dont hold your breath) and supposedly.

Ummm, supposedly what?

So from that, if you allow me play the adversary a little bit and I can make it fun for us. If that is ok

By all means, join the fun!

 

[Bandit]

Hi juantoo3

My dad had theory on the pyramids and I am seeing him soon so I will ask him about that again.
The reason I suggested staying in the 6000 mark is because that is the time frame of the verse in Genises. There could have been and probably was, many languages before Babylon but I am seeing that particular TIME as supposed after the flood, as being one language.
But sure we can go back millions of years too. LOL

Quote:

The other thing that bothers me with the evidence (s) and carbon dating, is, it is all summed up to maybe, possibly, argumentively, perhaps, again perhaps, hopefully (but dont hold your breath) and supposedly.

Ummm, supposedly what?

And what I mean by this is not what I say about it, but what the scientists say. Every article and commentary I read or any News and documentaries THEY conclude maybe, possibly, perhaps...
So it does not really move me personally as it would the person who finds it. That does not mean I have a disinterest in it.

Well, what do you, personally, want to know? I am not interested in validating or vindicating my personal biases. I want to know the factual truth, what really happened. Not what a collection of greedy, self-serving, self-righteous political types have polluted, confounded and twisted into a series of amusing but questionable myths over the course of several thousand years into a dogma that is force fed by social stigma into a brain wash attempt to pass fantasy for reality. I am looking for the kernal of truth behind the cloud of myth and politics. When and where that agrees with the Bible, well and good. When and where it disagrees, I wish to know that too. I do think there were a lot of well intended people who were involved in composing the scriptures, and there are very valuable lessons conveyed within. It is what has come about since then, historically, that concerns me.

I dont want to know anything particular about it. I am enjoying seeing what you and the others want to find out about it. I see you are on target with (the mess of messes in politics, fantasy and dogma) and I am right there with you on it.
Sure, I would love to see the ark and chariots and all of that. If only my life span would allow. We can only pass down what we have and leave it up to the next generations. I do find it interesting that the last 20 years especially there has been enormous attention paid to the bible to try and figure things out. Where the centuries passed was about putting the bible together.
That is probably what you are seeing also.?.

The 6th day creation was around and well, and the movements of such peoples are not to be lightly dismissed as for their interactions with the people of the book. If you please, salvation has been offered to all, including the 6th day creation.

I am not sure what you mean by this.

See ya soon, gotta get back to the work desk.

 

[Basstian]

I was looking outside the Bible for evidence of one language
I found this tid bit not sure as to its accuracy but wanted to add it to the thread
In c. 670 BC Nebuchadnezzar wrote, A former king built [the Temple of the Seven Lights of the Earth ], but he did not complete its head. Since a remote time, people had abandoned it, without order expressing their words. Since that time earthquakes and lightning had dispersed its sun-dried clay; the bricks of the casing had split, and the earth of the interior had been scattered in heaps. Merodach, the great lord, excited my mind to repair this building. I did not change the site, nor did I take away the foundation stone ? as it had been in former times. so I founded it, I made it; as it had been in ancient days, I so exalted the summit.

I put that line in Bold if that is true it supports the bible strory of the tower of babel

Peace

 

[juantoo3]

Kindest Regards, Bandit!
Thank you for your post.

My dad had theory on the pyramids and I am seeing him soon so I will ask him about that again.

I'd love to hear it.

The reason I suggested staying in the 6000 mark is because that is the time frame of the verse in Genises. There could have been and probably was, many languages before Babylon but I am seeing that particular TIME as supposed after the flood, as being one language.

Well, the thing that strikes me is the exponential growth in knowledge and intellectual capacity about 6000 years ago, specifically the advent of agriculture. When is it said that God planted a garden? does Eden date only to about 6000 years ago, but there was a creation already here? Look at the days of creation in Genesis. (From memory, so subject to correction) The sixth day creation included human, male and female created He them, Adam (without the article). And it was very good, (emphasis mine quoting the text). The seventh day God rested. The eighth day, God created ha-Adam, the man Adam (with the article). I am no linguist, but I am relating teaching from a linguist. Considering that the word used to denote "day", (by my understanding and I am being lazy not looking it up), also means "time." How long is a day to God? And wasn't ha-Adam created to tend a garden?

There was only one language in the plain of Shinar (as I recall), that area became Sumeria. Akkad was also a brief power in the region in Biblical times. And sanskrit, as I recall, came out of there, the fertile crescent, Babylon. Sanskrit is the mother tongue to about half of the world's languages I would guess, not having considered well enough the native tongues of the new world and africa. These are the Indo-European languages, I would guess, and I would appreciate learned correction if not.

But sure we can go back millions of years too. LOL

eh, there's a few of those discussions around here someplace. But the near term pre-history is a scarce bird. Some interesting stuff there though, like the different cave paintings they've found since Lasceaux (sp?). In the last thirty or so years there have been quite a number of cave paintings turn up. The cave paintings seem to me to have been a form of written language. The bone flute is interesting, the statuette they call "Venus of Willendorf", named for where she was found, the stone ball formed with a geometric pattern deliberately inscribed dated from way back, they still can only guess about fire but humans were making fire with implements 25 thousand or so years ago. Already thinking, already had tools and weapons, already had religion, already had a social system. To keep things in perspective, wasn't the end of the ice age about 10thousand years ago, or was that BC?

The body they found in the Alps a couple of years back was interesting, dated from before agriculture he was presumed to be "hunter-gatherer." But he turned out to be pretty much vegetarian.

Neandertal is presumed to have died out, as I recall, 25-35 thousand years ago, but this hybrid child turns up, what did the link say...something like 20 thousand, meaning Neandertal might well have survived much later than is currently thought, they just haven't found anything they're talking about. How this child figures into our direct discussion, I haven't got a clue, it may mean nothing.

What did the knowlege of good and evil consist of? What eyes were opened to Adam and Eve? What mental corridors were opened, or perhaps awakened? What marks the distinct transition between neolithic and modern humans? At about 6000 years ago?

And what I mean by this is not what I say about it, but what the scientists say. Every article and commentary I read or any News and documentaries THEY conclude maybe, possibly, perhaps...
So it does not really move me personally as it would the person who finds it. That does not mean I have a disinterest in it.

OK. I think you might find I have a somewhat different view, I automatically question anybody who claims they "know," anything. Anyone can misinterpret, even when the facts happen right in front of them.

I do find it interesting that the last 20 years especially there has been enormous attention paid to the bible to try and figure things out. Where the centuries passed was about putting the bible together.
That is probably what you are seeing also.?.

Yeah, but I'm not quite sure what I see just yet.

 

[juantoo3]

Kindest Regards, Basstian, welcome to CR!

I was looking outside the Bible for evidence of one language
I found this tid bit

Thank you for your contribution. Would you be kind enough to let me know who wrote that?

Seems to me Saddam was also involved in reconstruction of some famous ancient sites in Iraq. I heard the Hanging Gardens were being reconstructed around 1990. I don't recall if the tower itself was being reconstructed under Saddam.

 

[Bandit]

Yeah, but I'm not quite sure what I see just yet.

It feels and looks kind of like a time warp to me sometimes. HA HA (laughing)
I am real bad with dates and time lines so I am no good with that end of it. Sorry.

I am just thinking the prehistoric stuff is just not directly related to the way we know humans today. At least it seems that way to me. But nothing wrong with trying.

Well, the thing that strikes me is the exponential growth in knowledge and intellectual capacity about 6000 years ago, specifically the advent of agriculture. When is it said that God planted a garden? does Eden date only to about 6000 years ago, but there was a creation already here? Look at the days of creation in Genesis. (From memory, so subject to correction) The sixth day creation included human, male and female created He them, Adam (without the article). And it was very good, (emphasis mine quoting the text). The seventh day God rested. The eighth day, God created ha-Adam, the man Adam (with the article). I am no linguist, but I am relating teaching from a linguist. Considering that the word used to denote "day", (by my understanding and I am being lazy not looking it up), also means "time." How long is a day to God? And wasn't ha-Adam created to tend a garden?

I am seeing the seventh day there as prophecy still and has not come to pass, I think we are still in the 6th day.
Everything else here looks good to me. I did a nice personal study a few years back on locating Eden and if I find that I will bring it up here.
What was the name of the place that you found about Eden? Starts with an 'A' ?
Maybe the 8th day is when God starts a new earth? Not sure

Scripture says 1000 years (man) is as one day with the Lord, but that may be a metaphor. Yet still a possiblity when you look at other figures like 6 days of creation. 6000 years of man as we know it for sure. Seven would be a complete week. So 7 times 6 days of creation = 42,000 years. ?
I am thinking the earth was done before this time of 42,000 years.
Then add the 6,000 years of man as we know it for sure and we are at 46,000 years. (just a hunch)
That is just my simple way in my simple mind. But the earth itself was much more likely to be here way before that. I do see evolution in this, but not the same way of the basic concept of evolution.

They claim more than one ice age, but you cant believe everything they say. I mean 228 million years ago? That is beyond comprehension.
http://www.mazzaroth.com/ChapterOne/GenesisIceAge.htm

What did the knowlege of good and evil consist of? What eyes were opened to Adam and Eve? What mental corridors were opened, or perhaps awakened? What marks the distinct transition between neolithic and modern humans? At about 6000 years ago?

This is where the real knowledge rests to me. These questions I can relate to and comprehend. It was about 6000 years ago that is correct. I am seeing that as more of a spiritual awakening in the creation.
I am not sure they have even proved that the humans we know today was anything like what they find in archeology. It is almost kind of spooky what may have went on here on earth before Adam and Eve.
I definately see the same thing you do in the exponential growth in knowledge and intellectual capacity. That is why I think things were different before Adam and not connected directly as in.

There was only one language in the plain of Shinar (as I recall), that area became Sumeria. Akkad was also a brief power in the region in Biblical times. And sanskrit, as I recall, came out of there, the fertile crescent, Babylon. Sanskrit is the mother tongue to about half of the world's languages I would guess, not having considered well enough the native tongues of the new world and africa. These are the Indo-European languages, I would guess, and I would appreciate learned correction if not.

I think you are on track with this too. Maybe someone who has it layed out perfectly in there head will join someday and be able to show the languages closer. It is a mystery!

I want to know how did the Inidans get to America? boats?

I got something else for you in a few days that will take you on another mystery tour.

 

[Bandit]

WHOOPS! we would be nearing the 48,000 year mark (not 46,000) in days of creation as we know it by using 1,000 years as one day.-which is conceivable.

The 8th day would actually be the first day of a new week which would be day number one of the week.
So, if you took the earth being destroyed 7 times and calculate that...well, who knows it is all just speculation.

It still does not account for the discovery of these other life forms that appear to be like man, or the cave pictures dating back to just 10,000 and 25,000 years.

 

[juantoo3]

Kindest Regards, Bandit!

Thank you for your post.

I am real bad with dates and time lines so I am no good with that end of it. Sorry.

As an amateur historian, I get into the dates and times. More important to me is placing things into context, what is called anthropology.

I am just thinking the prehistoric stuff is just not directly related to the way we know humans today. At least it seems that way to me. But nothing wrong with trying.

We may never know, but it seems there is enough genetic information to tie modern humans to Cro-Magnon. This presumes that we did indeed grow out of that lineage. Nothing of consequence remains of Eden, so we don't really have any way to say with any certainty, there is nothing to compare to. Besides, didn't the composition change after Noah? The people of the book began to have shorter lives.

I am seeing the seventh day there as prophecy still and has not come to pass, I think we are still in the 6th day.

It is a different seventh day, the original that set the standard for the Sabbath, long before the Ten Commandments were written.

I did a nice personal study a few years back on locating Eden and if I find that I will bring it up here.
What was the name of the place that you found about Eden? Starts with an 'A' ?

I would like to see your study on Eden. Aden, in the country of Yemen, on the southern tip of the Arabian peninsula, has a long and storied tradition of being the site of the original Garden of Eden.

Maybe the 8th day is when God starts a new earth? Not sure

Prophetically, that is one interpretation, but it deals with the time of man since Eden, focused on the people of the book.

Scripture says 1000 years (man) is as one day with the Lord, but that may be a metaphor.

I see this the same way.

But the earth itself was much more likely to be here way before that. I do see evolution in this, but not the same way of the basic concept of evolution.

I have troubles with evolution as it is commonly taught, but I can't help but wonder if some form of adaptation over time did take place. If God is eternal, then what is a few billion years to "Him?"

They claim more than one ice age, but you cant believe everything they say. I mean 228 million years ago? That is beyond comprehension.

I haven't tried to figure all of the ice ages, etc, into my studies. Lately I've been focused on early humanity. Besides, if the Dinosaurs died off 65 million years ago, 228 million seems a bit far into the past to concern myself with.

It was about 6000 years ago that is correct. I am seeing that as more of a spiritual awakening in the creation.

Well, yes, but... You see, the cave paintings are usually described in religious terms. That is, prehistoric humanity, at least by the time of the cave paintings, had religion. In one cave was a depiction of a shaman, and in another was found the body of a shaman carefully wrapped in a wolf skin. The wolf skin was a garment. The paintings are sometimes described as sympathetic magic to improve the outcome of a hunt. Certainly a possibility, but I am just as inclined to think at least some of the paintings were teaching instruments to learn tactics for more successful hunts, as well as thank offerings to the creature and to The Giver of Life, the Creator. A side note, but connected, is that Neandertal were supposedly not related to Cro-Magnon. That is, if I was told correctly and I believe I was brought mostly up to date with current thinking on the matter, Neandertal and Cro-Magnon were branches from the same trunk many thousands of years back. Cro-Magnon is not decended from Neandertal. Modern humans are distinct from Cro-Magnon mainly in intellectual ability. Although I would think them somewhat smaller in stature on average, they would certainly have been more fit and nimble. These are the hunter-gatherers we hear of so often, living in caves hunting mammoth in the depths of an ice age.

The hybrid child then, is the child of two unrelated species (or at least only distantly related). It would be like a human mating with a chimpanzee or bonobo, sort of. See now the importance of that particular find?

I am not sure they have even proved that the humans we know today was anything like what they find in archeology.

Well, I haven't taken the time yet to look into what genetic samples have been found, other than the child. I would think that some genetic material might exist (if they can find genetic material for dinos, then 25 thousand years should be a cakewalk). Besides, they had to use genetic material to confirm the hybrid child, didn't they? I'm not a geneticist, but the body type descriptions differentiating the Cro-Magnon from the Neandertal, Neandertal was shorter, but much more stocky, and presumed to have stout musculature. A prominent brow, and actually a larger brain! I seem to also recall that their voice box was not capable of speaking, but I seriously question that assessment. Another difference is that the cave paintings were Cro-Magnon. What little art that has been found and attributed to Neandertal consists more of geometric shapes and patterns. Some of the caves were habited, at different times, by both N. and C.-M. There is even speculation, and at least one instance, were the two communally cohabited, they lived in the same neighborhood.

Then came a war, and C.-M. won. Neandertal disappeared. At least, that is the speculation, and I am inclined to agree.

It is almost kind of spooky what may have went on here on earth before Adam and Eve.

Why? All of creation is beautiful, so beautiful it is sometimes hard to look at.

I definately see the same thing you do in the exponential growth in knowledge and intellectual capacity. That is why I think things were different before Adam and not connected directly as in.

Well, if we did not "evolve" out of Cro-Magnon, then that leaves only one alternative; ha-Adam was planted here too, along with the garden. Which implies extra-terrestrial visitation. Do we want to go there? Maybe Von Daniken wasn't so far off?

And then, how do we account for Atlantis?

I think you are on track with this too. Maybe someone who has it layed out perfectly in there head will join someday and be able to show the languages closer. It is a mystery!

Something tells me it is buried between the lines in whatever higher scholarship texts concerning languages, especially historic languages.

I want to know how did the Inidans get to America? boats?

Yeah, I've wondered that too. Common thinking is a frozen Bering Sea. Of course, due to continental drift the distance would have been further apart thousands of years ago. Not to mention trying to make headway in conditions conducive to maintaining ice thick enough to support an elephant. But to a great degree, the Eskimo and Inuit do so even today. But I do think that there have been a number of migrations to the new world, most by sea. Take a look sometime at the Los Lunas Decalogue Stone. There was also a keystone found in one of the mounds in Ohio with paleo-hebrew inscriptions. There are many instances of European, especially Irish, migration long before Columbus. Humanity, in my humble opinion, was much more mobile in early historic times than we commonly give credit. I often wonder about the Phoenicians.

I got something else for you in a few days that will take you on another mystery tour.

Great! I will look forward to it.

 

[Bandit]

Hey juantoo3!

Besides, didn't the composition change after Noah? The people of the book began to have shorter lives.

Yah. Like it went from 300 to 600 years down to just over 100 years old. I always felt like the earth functioned totally different than it does today with the water cycle more like a gentle terrarium (misty). Instead, today we have violent storms, floods and unpredictable weather since the flood. Something did change there.

It is a different seventh day, the original that set the standard for the Sabbath, long before the Ten Commandments were written.

If we assume the creation days were 7000 years,( each creation day is 7000 years) due to the timetable of Adam to now, then the 7th day could not have happened yet, because there would be a huge gap of 7000 years missing from Adam to now, AND we would be living in the 8th day.

UNLESS Adam lived for 7000 years before he was thrown out of the garden. LOL
Do you see what I mean?
----there would be a severe time warp there.

If God is eternal, then what is a few billion years to "Him?"

TRUE

The hybrid child then, is the child of two unrelated species (or at least only distantly related). It would be like a human mating with a chimpanzee or bonobo, sort of. See now the importance of that particular find?

YES

You know there is other scripture for possible Neanderthal (giants) living during Moses time...one guy was 12 feet tall, not Goliath, but another one. I will get that together unless you already looked at them. Have you?

Then came a war, and C.-M. won. Neandertal disappeared. At least, that is the speculation, and I am inclined to agree.

so now what? who will survive the next one. LOL

And then, how do we account for Atlantis?

I don't know. There are more cities under water than Atlantis, maybe not as old though.

Quote:
It is almost kind of spooky what may have went on here on earth before Adam and Eve.

Why? All of creation is beautiful, so beautiful it is sometimes hard to look at.

I love the creation as we know it today. But unless genetics match up from the findings, one day, I will always have a sense uf uneasiness about the early creations we know little about, dinasours and the cave people. My uncle has a theory that the things before Adam( 6 days of creation) were by by a different force other than God, like that of Lucifer because he was made before all these other things and cast down to earth and given dominion over it. Some would call that myth or alien life maybe, but there is a bad negative force out there and sometimes in (here) if you know what I mean.

write back soon

 

[juantoo3]

Kindest Regards, Bandit!

Thank you for your post.

I always felt like the earth functioned totally different than it does today with the water cycle more like a gentle terrarium (misty). Instead, today we have violent storms, floods and unpredictable weather since the flood. Something did change there.

I am inclined to agree. I do not understand enough about atmospheric mechanics to say with any certainty. I have long speculated that the impact of a comet set off the reaction that caused Noah's flood and changed the weather patterns. A comet might carry the gases and water sufficient to change things.

If we assume the creation days were 7000 years,( each creation day is 7000 years) due to the timetable of Adam to now, then the 7th day could not have happened yet, because there would be a huge gap of 7000 years missing from Adam to now, AND we would be living in the 8th day.
UNLESS Adam lived for 7000 years before he was thrown out of the garden. LOL
Do you see what I mean?
----there would be a severe time warp there.

Ah, but this is a great leap of speculation.

You know there is other scripture for possible Neanderthal (giants) living during Moses time...one guy was 12 feet tall, not Goliath, but another one. I will get that together unless you already looked at them. Have you?

Yes, I have asked here in the past about myths pertaining to giants. Neandertal, however, were much shorter than that. Goliath was not the only giant mentioned in the Bible, in fact he was of a race of giants. Seems to me that his brother was also mentioned in another battle, and his father mentioned in passing. I believe the giant you are referring to is Og, where the Bible mentions his bed being something like 12 cubits, which would be more like 16 to 18 feet. Outside of the Bible, I found reference to the original Lord Cornwall, who for sport would hunt giants in the south of England in about the time of King Arthur.

I want to add, concerning Neandertal, that they were very intelligent, used fire, tools and weapons, and likely (in better times) even exchanged and cooperated with Cro-Magnon. They had a social system, and very likely some rudimentary religion. They did not paint cave walls, but they were very creative in what artifacts they did produce, just like the C.-M.'s.

There is a fellow named Glenn Morton who has looked into a lot of this stuff. Alexa posted his web site address a few posts back in this thread. He has some very interesting information if you are of a mind to look.

so now what? who will survive the next one.

That remains to be seen. If I were a betting man, I would place my bet on the people of the book. Of course, I do have a bias in that direction.

I don't know. There are more cities under water than Atlantis, maybe not as old though.

Yes. Some are known, such as Alexandria in Egypt. Others right now are speculation at best, or ignored.

I love the creation as we know it today. But unless genetics match up from the findings, one day, I will always have a sense uf uneasiness about the early creations we know little about, dinasours and the cave people.

Well, that's the trouble. If I understand correctly, the genetics do match up. All humans living today are separated by only 1/2 of 1% of the total genomic sequence, something like 3 billion base pairs. That includes the people of the book and all others.

My uncle has a theory that the things before Adam( 6 days of creation) were by by a different force other than God, like that of Lucifer because he was made before all these other things and cast down to earth and given dominion over it. Some would call that myth or alien life maybe, but there is a bad negative force out there and sometimes in (here) if you know what I mean.

Well, what concerns me with this is that it takes away credit for the creation from the Creator. If Lucifer is capable of creation, why does he bother with what is going on here? No, I am inclined to think Lucifer is more intent on stealing what is not his, what he did not create.

 

[Bandit]

Hey juantoo3

I want to add, concerning Neandertal, that they were very intelligent, used fire, tools and weapons, and likely (in better times) even exchanged and cooperated with Cro-Magnon. They had a social system, and very likely some rudimentary religion. They did not paint cave walls, but they were very creative in what artifacts they did produce, just like the C.-M.'s.

I wonder if some of this could be what happened with Cain...he kind of wandered off and found a wife (and this wife is from some prehistoric thing) or maybe the curse that was put on Cain could attribute. ?dont know?
The whole thing kind of goes against us all being of ONE BLOOD, like the same blood. Except for we are all of the same blood.

I know the earth was here before God made the creation as we know it today. Even the first 5 days are different from the very first 4 verses of Gen. For example LIGHT(S) are used in the 4th day, where as in the BEGINNING it says light.

Anyway they are wanting to get more Christians and such into these studies and allow them to also view and test the evidences. I think that would be fair.

I just went for two hours trying to find some things, but it is the same stuff and everything is proposed.

Quote:
If we assume the creation days were 7000 years,( each creation day is 7000 years) due to the timetable of Adam to now, then the 7th day could not have happened yet, because there would be a huge gap of 7000 years missing from Adam to now, AND we would be living in the 8th day.
UNLESS Adam lived for 7000 years before he was thrown out of the garden. LOL
Do you see what I mean?
----there would be a severe time warp there.

Ah, but this is a great leap of speculation.

What I am trying to say here is I still believe we are in the 6th day reguardless of any equation of the 1000 years X.
Not the seventh or the eighth and God could not have rested because man is still here on earth since He made Adam. You would end up with unaccounted for time if we are in the 7th or 8th and it would throw the whole BC record off.

Well, that's the trouble. If I understand correctly, the genetics do match up. All humans living today are separated by only 1/2 of 1% of the total genomic sequence, something like 3 billion base pairs. That includes the people of the book and all others.

Can you explain this when you have time or set me to a good link?

I know we are not from monkeys that part is for sure. they first said the DNA was like 95% (or more), but like usual they have come back now years later and it is supposed to be down to like 85% the same as humans.

Keep searching It has been fun.

 

[Bandit]

here is something you might like. i dont think it is that old. could not find any dates and nothing on languages.

http://www.culture.gouv.fr/culture/arcnat/lascaux/en/index.html

 

[juantoo3]

Kindest Regards, Bandit!

Thank you for your post.

I wonder if some of this could be what happened with Cain...he kind of wandered off and found a wife (and this wife is from some prehistoric thing) or maybe the curse that was put on Cain could attribute. ?dont know?

A lot depends on what happened when. If ha-Adam was not created until about 6000 years ago, and Neandertal died off 25 thousand years ago, then there is a gross discrepency in applying the idea of Cain's wife being of that race. I do believe she may have been C.-M., which would have still existed (and very likely still does). Cain's lineage went on to found a nation supposedly, but I have yet to figure out what nation or heritage that composes.

The whole thing kind of goes against us all being of ONE BLOOD, like the same blood. Except for we are all of the same blood.

Exactly.

I know the earth was here before God made the creation as we know it today. Even the first 5 days are different from the very first 4 verses of Gen. For example LIGHT(S) are used in the 4th day, where as in the BEGINNING it says light.

True. Even the formation of the sun, moon and stars after the creation of the earth poses problems in my mind, I am not sure what to make of it.

Anyway they are wanting to get more Christians and such into these studies and allow them to also view and test the evidences. I think that would be fair.

Yes, provided the Christians are not adamantly dogmatic with a hidden agenda, and can remain objective and follow where the evidence leads rather than bending the evidence to suit their presuppositions. Glenn Morton seems to me to be such a person. He might not have things 100% correct, but he tries diligently.

I just went for two hours trying to find some things, but it is the same stuff and everything is proposed.

It is tough to find objective research, from the horse's mouth so to speak. I am pretty selective with the research I look to. The popular media has a bad habit of blowing things out of proportion. As for things being "proposed," I would much rather that than somebody saying, as all too often "they" do, that they know with certainty. The simple truth is that we have no way of knowing with certainty. Even looking at known history, the writers of that history typically have a bias and an agenda. It might be political propaganda or something like that. History seems to me to be the story of the victorious in war, the feeding of patriotism. In those rare instances when a loser is able to contribute to history, they still put a spin on it that portrays them in a better light. Nobody likes a loser.

So, until we find a way to time travel back and objectively observe the events we are studying (which I doubt will ever occur), we can only propose/guess/suppose what actually happened by drawing conclusions from the available evidence. We have case histories of social studies and anthropologies of primitive societies that still exist (or did within the last couple of hundred years or so) that give us a generic blueprint to use as a guide, and by using that "they" propose what they think occurred.

What I am trying to say here is I still believe we are in the 6th day reguardless of any equation of the 1000 years X.
Not the seventh or the eighth and God could not have rested because man is still here on earth since He made Adam. You would end up with unaccounted for time if we are in the 7th or 8th and it would throw the whole BC record off.

I understand what you are saying, but it still doesn't apply to the 6 (8) days of creation. If you will, the beginning of the eighth day of creation is also the first day of Biblical prophesy concerning the people of the book, beginning with ha-Adam. In other words, Biblically speaking, the eighth day is also the first day of the new week.

Can you explain this when you have time or set me to a good link?

I don't have my paper handy, I've mislaid it, and my computer crashed a couple of weeks ago so I lost my files. I pulled it from an interview with a co-worker of Francis Collins, head of the US government's portion of the genome mapping project, about as close to the horse's mouth as you can get.

I know we are not from monkeys that part is for sure. they first said the DNA was like 95% (or more), but like usual they have come back now years later and it is supposed to be down to like 85% the same as humans.

The only thing I know is that I don't know anything. The same fellow I mentioned just previously, mentioned that we are separated from "our closest relatives" (chimpanzees and bonobos) by about 5% of the total genome sequence. The same interview stated that chimps are separated by about 2.5% of the sequence, even though their population numbers are drastically less than the total population of humans. Between this interview, and one with Francis Collins himself, I also learned that humans share as much as 90% or more of the sequence with many other mammals, including mice and bears. We even share as much as half of the sequence with bananas and yeast. What I take away from this is that all life as we know it here on earth is connected and related. I don't know if that means "evolution," but it sure begins to sound like it.

Keep searching It has been fun.

I will, and it is.

BTW, thanks for the great picture from Lasceaux!

 

[alexa]

Hello juantoo3,

Sorry to drop in so late. I don't know how the time can pass so quick lately and leisure time seems more difficult to be found.

I'm happy Bandit and Basstian have joined us. I hope other members to find this thread interesting enough to give their opinion.

You know something interesting ? In 1886, the Linguistic Society of Paris banned discussion on the origin of language, considering it as an unanswerable issue. Happily we are not members of this society.

So the "dead" languages are mostly a, ummmm, dead end. Unless they are old enough and pertinent to the initial expansion out of Sumaria.

As you said, we have to find that "old enough" from the long list of dead languages. Don't forget those "dead" languages were thousands ago very much alive. As we try to find the source, I would like to keep an open eye on them.

What we need for this would be a linguist versed in the primitive languages, at least enough to walk us through the earliest known beginnings.

Agree. I tried to get Phillys into our conversation, but she didn't want to. She is not a specialist in primitive languages, but she has chosen two difficult to study. I know she has found interesting some of the documents presented earlier. Maybe she'll change her mind.

The more I read for this thread, the more I think language may have developed independently in different groups of humans from archaic means of communication. You said something about the evolution of languages in function of the movement of people. I cannot find right now the excerpt to quote it, but I liked the idea. The evolution and decline of a language correlated with the evolution and decline of a nation.

I have to let you with this, as my free time is over. Until the next time.

 

[Bandit]

You know something interesting ? In 1886, the Linguistic Society of Paris banned discussion on the origin of language, considering it as an unanswerable issue. Happily we are not members of this society.

That is really odd. It seems like studying language origin is the most innocent study anyone could ever do. At least from the spoken language perspective. I wonder if they saw some kind of crime potential in it? or maybe they were trying to hide something. I think it is unaswerable too but I just cannot understand banning discussion of it.

Below is what I think alexa was looking for. It made a lot of sense to me also.

Originally Posted by juantoo3
Language is about the movement of peoples. If a people grows, so does their language. Living languages grow, and morph, and absorb. Science uses dead languages, Latin and Greek, because these languages do not change any longer. But modern English, French, Spanish, German, Dutch are constantly changing as old words gain new meaning, and new words are developed or adopted. It was the same during the bronze and iron age, languages morphed, unless and until they were absorbed or wiped out. As people conquered or fell victim to conquerers, their language followed them and moved with them across continents.

So, if the world was at one time of one language, what language would that be? Sumerian? Akkadian? And/or did the oriental languages branch off from here as well, or were they already in existence? What ramifications does this have to the fabled Tower?

 

[juantoo3]

Kindest Regards, alexa!

It is a great pleasure to have you back!

Sorry to drop in so late. I don't know how the time can pass so quick lately and leisure time seems more difficult to be found.

I know only too well what you mean. I haven't found time to study, I have been going on previous learning. I am very pleased someone is actually looking into this deeper. Thanks!

I'm happy Bandit and Basstian have joined us. I hope other members to find this thread interesting enough to give their opinion.

I agree wholeheartedly.

You know something interesting ? In 1886, the Linguistic Society of Paris banned discussion on the origin of language, considering it as an unanswerable issue. Happily we are not members of this society.

I cannot help but wonder if this is related to the Higher Critical movement that began in Germany. My understanding is vague, but it seems to me certain institutions of higher learning, beginning around the end of the 1700's, made a deliberate attempt to distance themselves from religious teachings. In effect, higher education became atheistic, and this influenced education to this day. I find it interesting that a lot of the old arguments presented by this group are still presented against Biblical teaching, even when distinct evidences have been found. At one time, they taught there was no evidence to support the Bible, yet archeology since then has repeatedly shown certain evidences that have come to light. In effect, the Higher Critics founded their own dogmatic religion, in my view.

As you said, we have to find that "old enough" from the long list of dead languages. Don't forget those "dead" languages were thousands ago very much alive. As we try to find the source, I would like to keep an open eye on them.

Agreed. Which is why I put the disclaimer. But in going over the list, I found a great many dead languages that came into being long after the period of time we are relating to, and it would have been additional work that would not have added to our search.

Agree. I tried to get Phillys into our conversation, but she didn't want to. She is not a specialist in primitive languages, but she has chosen two difficult to study. I know she has found interesting some of the documents presented earlier. Maybe she'll change her mind.

Phillys is more than welcome to join in if she can find a little time. Her views would be appreciated greatly.

The more I read for this thread, the more I think language may have developed independently in different groups of humans from archaic means of communication. You said something about the evolution of languages in function of the movement of people. I cannot find right now the excerpt to quote it, but I liked the idea. The evolution and decline of a language correlated with the evolution and decline of a nation.

Thanks for the support!

Hope to see you back soon!

 

[juantoo3]

Kindest Regards, Bandit!

Thank you for your post.

That is really odd. It seems like studying language origin is the most innocent study anyone could ever do. At least from the spoken language perspective. I wonder if they saw some kind of crime potential in it? or maybe they were trying to hide something. I think it is unaswerable too but I just cannot understand banning discussion of it.

Well, spoken language is really difficult to study, most especially if there are no native speakers alive to relate to. I don't think we are going to find anybody 4000 years old to interview. What we can study are the remains of written languages. Even considering American English, look how much different it is from Australian English or British English. And then throw in the regional dialects of the Northeast, the deep South, the Midwest and the West coast. Add to this the slang and sub-cultural vernacular, then add the "shop talk" among certain groups, like computer people or cross-country truck drivers, and you can see just how difficult it can be. It is all English, but it can make different groups within the whole very difficult to communicate with. Now compare any of these with say, the Elizabethan English of Shakespeare, and it is no wonder the KJV can be difficult for so many English readers to understand, not even taking into account the difficulties the translators had to begin with going to the Hebrew and Greek.

This is but one example, but the concept can be applied across all of the major language families, or at least this is how I understand the problem. Compound the equation by going back 4 to 6 thousand years, tracing a trail across related but long extinct languages, and this is what we are up against. Quite daunting for a group of amateurs!

Add in the political problems created by groups like the Higher Critics, and the whole study gets a whitewash. So what Alexa found is really no surprise to me.

In going through the list Alexa provided, it seems to me sanskrit, or whatever proto-indo-european language existed then, is the most likely candidate. The problem arises with the non-indo-european languages, which seem to include the oriental languages, as well as a proto-celtic that was mentioned and one or two others that escape me at this moment. Not to mention the complete absence of languages from sub-Saharan Africa and only references to relatively modern American aboriginal languages, most probably because they had no writings we are aware of. Oh, and the Australian aboriginal and Polynesian languages. Now, I suppose it could be argued that humans had not moved into these areas yet, but I am inclined to think the archeological evidences in Africa and America, and what I believe to be the tradition among Australian/Polynesian peoples of an ancient heritage, bring this position into question. I could be shown incorrect on any of these, it remains to be seen.

So, that is where I am at for the moment. And I'm wide open to any further suggestions.

Which brings me back to the conclusion that there likely was a remnant of the 6th day creation that excaped the flood of Noah. And these likely were directly descended from the Cro-Magnon.

 

[Phyllis Sidhe_Uaine]

Originally posted by alexaAgree. I tried to get Phillys into our conversation, but she didn't want to. She is not a specialist in primitive languages, but she has chosen two difficult to study. I know she has found interesting some of the documents presented earlier. Maybe she'll change her mind.

I'm sorry that I haven't participated in your dialogue here, but I'm trying to wrap my poor abused brain around so many different things that I'm a bit overwhelmed.

Anyway, this discussion reminds me of the time I spent one day in a particular philosophy class when they were discussing whether or not non-homo sapien sapiens ("modern" humans) have language. I proposed that all organisms have some form of language, not necessarily what we (humans) refer to as language. I proposed that there is even linguistic shifts and dialects present in the different species, especially the "higher organisms". While they might not have "passed" Decartes' proposed "test of 'intelligence'", that doesn't mean that say, a humpback whale or a bottlenosed dolphin, doesn't have something similar to I think, therefore I am.

Phyllis Sidhe_Uaine

 

[juantoo3]

Kindest Regards, Phyllis Sidhe_Uaine!

What a rare treat for you to join us! If you can find a moment from time to time, please join in.

I'm sorry that I haven't participated in your dialogue here, but I'm trying to wrap my poor abused brain around so many different things that I'm a bit overwhelmed.

Anyway, this discussion reminds me of the time I spent one day in a particular philosophy class when they were discussing whether or not non-homo sapien sapiens ("modern" humans) have language. I proposed that all organisms have some form of language, not necessarily what we (humans) refer to as language. I proposed that there is even linguistic shifts and dialects present in the different species, especially the "higher organisms". While they might not have "passed" Decartes' proposed "test of 'intelligence'", that doesn't mean that say, a humpback whale or a bottlenosed dolphin, doesn't have something similar to I think, therefore I am.

With some of the things I have come across through the years, I am inclined to agree with you. I am of the mind that even trees communicate, just not in ways humans are conditioned to understand communication.

IIrc, are you not a student of language? Perhaps you might have some directions to point us in to better our understanding of the development of primitive human language? Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance.