Reincarnation Within Monotheism?

[wil]

Do we know what he wants us to 'get'?

To know Him is the purpose.

The eye cannot look on itself without a mirror.

We are that mirror for Him.

To prep, I don't believe in a "Him".

I speak more from feelings, experiences and my heart than my intellect and book knowledge.

I feel we are in a plane of existence, 3D on earth, for learning, for assisting others to learn, not as humans, but as soul/spirit, expressions extenstions of the one.

What we are here to get? It is like when your parents told you...you aren't going to get any more toys untill you learn to take care of the ones you got...

We've been given a big blue ball to live and play on, we've been given billions of fellow travelers, we've been given a vehicle/body to explore and experience it all....and until we learn to care for and respect all three, our earth, our 'neighbor' and ourcellves....we will return, as our next incarnation station requires that respect and care is expected.....

We are in preschool...

 

[Thomas]

If there exists a forgiving G!d, I can't BELIEVE that he would think we'd get it all in one life and only give us one chance to get it right.

Then don't torture yourself trying to be a Christian.

If anyone can explain to me how reincarnation actually works, that would be useful.

I don't think that reincarnation actually says that the 'us' you're talking about gets another chance. I think reincarnation, like karma, means 'life goes on' and what happens tomorrow stands on the foundation laid down today.

But I don't think reincarnation says 'us' or 'you' or 'me' gets another bite of the cherry.

And if it does, then I find the metaphysics of the matter profoundly pessimistic.

The idea of linear progression is foreign to almost every spiritual tradition, so the assumption that each life is fractionally better than the one before is flawed, as the doctrine or reincarnation states quite clearly — the game of Snakes and Ladders is founded on it.

The idea that one passes blindly from life to life, over thousands of years, and then blow it all in one moment, ending up worse off than at the very outset, I find utterly disheartening.

Especially when, in effect, one is 'walking in the dark', with no way of referencing the things we might have done right or wrong in a previous incarnation.

If you accept a Personal God, that is a God who wills to be known, and one whom invites the knower into the participation in Being, then the notion of 'disposable persons' becomes difficult to reconcile, when everything in Scripture argues against it: "Yea, the very hairs of your head are all numbered. Fear not therefore: you are of more value than many sparrows" (Luke 12:7) — but if reincarnation is true, then 'you' have no intrinsic value.

 

[AdvaitaZen]

No, it states that the Spirit who animates them both is the same, not that the essence of the individual is the same essence in both persons.

This is actually what I said in the next post.

D'you think so? I don't. I think the easy way out is to assume that it doesn't matter what happens in this one, I get another to put it right ... indeed, put like that, 'reincarnation' just points to the more unfortunate aspects of human nature, to put things off ...

I have said this too, but you have overlooked why I have said having one life provides an easy way out. You have a preference to defend one life, but if we do not believe in God and only have one life, suicide is certainly an easy way out if this life becomes too much for us. With reincarnation, not even death is a way out.

You reject this, it is fine, but in reality there is no life for the individual at all. Both reincarnation and one life theories are false, they are fundamentally in support of soul, identification with the temporary. When we encounter our nature as Spirit, this all falls away, it is so clearly false. The individual was always just a thought arising in Spirit, it never had its own distinct existence.

We say certain things in religious circles for the seeker, very little of it is actually truth, but that isn't the point. Its purpose is to bring them home, it isn't intended as something you learn and parrot to others - this is exactly what is wrong with religions today.

As opposed to being altogether dead ... the logic doesn't follow.

As I just hinted at, what we are is altogether beyond life or death. We cannot really die because we are not really alive, what we are as form is a particular vantage of consciousness. We are ultimately before consciousness though, as deep sleep shows we can be without it. Christianity never ventures to these depths though, so I am not sure whether it is worthwhile going here with you.

Nor do I accept the notion of karma as someone keeping a scorecard against your name.

Karma means action, if you believe you are the doer of something bad then there will be guilt, and this guilt will attract more negativity to you. If you do good deeds, there is a positive energy which emanates from you, and you will attract more good. It is not that there is someone somewhere keeping track - indeed, this is an Old Testament notion, Satan and God are keeping trial of Job for instance, reviewing his deeds to see whether it is good he go to heaven. There is nothing like this in any reincarnation based religion, karma is accumulated energetically, dropping the notion of doership is the point. As Jesus said "Do not think it is I who do these things, but the father through me", he has dropped doership. When there is total detachment from action, it is often called "Divine Animation".

 

[AdvaitaZen]

To prep, I don't believe in a "Him".

I thought I was talking to a Christian.

Of course it is not a Him, this is anthropomorphism. It is the totality of existence, intelligence itself. Of course, man believes himself the only thing of intelligence, he thinks perhaps his intelligence is accidental, that it makes him unique. Science will tell us it is the result of our brain size, chemistry.

We can at best say we are the highest manifestation of this intelligence, and through us it is seeking itself. This is our purpose though, existence is trying to comprehend itself through us.

I speak more from feelings, experiences and my heart than my intellect and book knowledge.

Do you not think the heart has its intelligence, that feelings have their intelligence, that what we are given to experience is not towards growing this intelligence? Book knowledge is not much, we are only learning to repeat what another discovered, it is good to question these, to discover their truth for ourselves.

This is the difference between knowledge and intelligence, when compared to wisdom. Wisdom does not repeat, it responds from love to the present moment - from the heart.

I feel we are in a plane of existence, 3D on earth, for learning, for assisting others to learn, not as humans, but as soul/spirit, expressions extenstions of the one.

You have asked for what purpose though...

What we are here to get? It is like when your parents told you...you aren't going to get any more toys untill you learn to take care of the ones you got...

Our purpose here has nothing to do with being here. These toys are our own distractions from our purpose. Many creatures provide services to the earth, cleaning, pollinating, there are many systems to sustain this place. It is not for us to do, but we want to control and so we destroy natural systems and replace them with our own. We have become very wise about this, for instance rotating fields so the soul can replenish itself. It truth though, this whole planet was once as a rainforest, there was abundance of all that is necessary. We go on ruining this natural balance by thinking this is our home.

We've been given a big blue ball to live and play on, we've been given billions of fellow travelers, we've been given a vehicle/body to explore and experience it all....and until we learn to care for and respect all three, our earth, our 'neighbor' and ourcellves....we will return, as our next incarnation station requires that respect and care is expected.....

This precludes the assumption there is somewhere to get. At higher or lower plains, we will not be so balanced, something is missing - either intelligence or the form to hear the wise. Humans are the perfect balance between spiritual and material, it is in this form that we can return home. It is not a particular peg on the ladder, this is something only of mind. We are here to know what is here, we are here to know that intelligence from a particular perspective, we are not here to get somewhere else, we are here to know what we are.

We are in preschool...

MIneral is preschool, part of that is in us.
Plant is elementary school, part of that is in us.
Animal is high school, part of that is in us.

Our form is the accumulation of all this, even the first atom that comprised us has formed out of similar ingredients in the mother and father. We are the culmination of life.

Yet we are not life, we are the observers of it.

Finding out the nature of this fulfils, nothing else ever will - at least not permanently.

Drop all your ideas, do not pay attention to the mind, find out what lies within you, as you. What is it which is aware of this grand show? We all know of this question from our very birth, it is our purpose. Humans are fundamentally compelled by the basic questions "who/what am I?" and "why am I here?".

All else is only as a distraction from inquiring about these.

 

[AdvaitaZen]

Then don't torture yourself trying to be a Christian.

If anyone can explain to me how reincarnation actually works, that would be useful.

I don't think that reincarnation actually says that the 'us' you're talking about gets another chance. I think reincarnation, like karma, means 'life goes on' and what happens tomorrow stands on the foundation laid down today.

But I don't think reincarnation says 'us' or 'you' or 'me' gets another bite of the cherry.

And if it does, then I find the metaphysics of the matter profoundly pessimistic.

The idea of linear progression is foreign to almost every spiritual tradition, so the assumption that each life is fractionally better than the one before is flawed, as the doctrine or reincarnation states quite clearly — the game of Snakes and Ladders is founded on it.

The idea that one passes blindly from life to life, over thousands of years, and then blow it all in one moment, ending up worse off than at the very outset, I find utterly disheartening.

Especially when, in effect, one is 'walking in the dark', with no way of referencing the things we might have done right or wrong in a previous incarnation.

If you accept a Personal God, that is a God who wills to be known, and one whom invites the knower into the participation in Being, then the notion of 'disposable persons' becomes difficult to reconcile, when everything in Scripture argues against it: "Yea, the very hairs of your head are all numbered. Fear not therefore: you are of more value than many sparrows" (Luke 12:7) — but if reincarnation is true, then 'you' have no intrinsic value.

I would suggest this pessimism is stemming from your mind.

It only exists in your projection, as a believer in reincarnation would find a single life doctrine quite pessimistic also, since now there is no value to growth in this life. Nothing matters at all here because in your dying breath you can ask for forgiveness and go on to the father. There is no justice in this, at least in reincarnation something like justice is there, if I am good there is reward - as heaven - and if I am bad there is punishment - as hell. It is not so simple to gain reward though, and hell is no more eternal - there remains a possibility. My deeds become something meaningful in this belief in reincarnation.

I would suggest heaven and hell are just like reincarnation, you are born into either a vastly higher or lower plane. I guess the single thing which attracts you to Christianity is the fact that whatever you've done, your God is forgiving, simply ask for forgiveness and all will be ok.

Of course both are false - there is no you to be rewarded or punished.

I think it would be more beneficial for you to see the ramifications of reincarnation exactly because it seems dreadful to the mind. Find out why it is so, yet you hint at it by the quote you have given from Luke.

Fundamentally, you want to think you matter.

There is no you to matter, it is only a thought, a series of memories and experiences you have decided are "me".

What is the truth pervading all these?

Freedom comes not from any solace, but in seeing there is nothing which can gain solace.

Accepting life as it is, there is bliss.

Our frustrations, our suffering, stems from our refusal to accept what is.

These ideals are only more thoughts, our whole experience of life is not actually based on life itself, it is always based on our interpretations of life.

Drop all interpretation, see what is actually here.

You cannot defeat the ocean, you can only merge with it, dissolve into it.

Water with water, the current flows on.

 

[AdvaitaZen]

Thomas: The post where I describe reincarnation starts out "Nanak".

It was in reply to Vessariò.

Hopefully it will assist your understanding.

 

[AdvaitaZen]

Also, again note, the point of reincarnation is not that we settle for coming back here. It is more as the result of karma that the wheel goes on turning - samsara.

The point in all traditions that teach reincarnation is that you are not part of the wheel, you are the hub which permits the wheel to turn. You are the open space in the center of existence which provides for the possibility of movement.

Seeing you are only this empty space, you no more feel yourself part of the wheel, but all suffering comes because we are too involved in it.

When you are no move involved in the wheel, there is no more time for you, you are eternally here and now, and only this is Reality. All else we tell ourselves about existence is part of the wheel, part of maya, and keeps us chained to samsara.

When we see only this moment is, we can look at what is actually here.

If only this moment is, truth must be here.

What is the constant, the ever-present?

The body goes on changing day after day, the mind is never static, circumstances around us never stay the same.

True inquiry is into the unchanging, unmanifest essence that all else moves around.

That is who you are, know thyself.

 

[radarmark]

Why not? Both Sikhism and monotheistid Hindus believe it.

 

[donnann]

Also, again note, the point of reincarnation is not that we settle for coming back here. It is more as the result of karma that the wheel goes on turning - samsara.

The point in all traditions that teach reincarnation is that you are not part of the wheel, you are the hub which permits the wheel to turn. You are the open space in the center of existence which provides for the possibility of movement.

Seeing you are only this empty space, you no more feel yourself part of the wheel, but all suffering comes because we are too involved in it.

When you are no move involved in the wheel, there is no more time for you, you are eternally here and now, and only this is Reality. All else we tell ourselves about existence is part of the wheel, part of maya, and keeps us chained to samsara.

When we see only this moment is, we can look at what is actually here.

If only this moment is, truth must be here.

What is the constant, the ever-present?

The body goes on changing day after day, the mind is never static, circumstances around us never stay the same.

True inquiry is into the unchanging, unmanifest essence that all else moves around.

That is who you are, know thyself.

You can reincarnate. I believe that is a choice for the individual. Your body however would look just like the previous incarnation. I like to use movie references. In the movie the 7th sign the woman was shown to have been present when jesus was being hit. When the gatekeeper said to her "Would you die for him?" She looked exactly like she did in the present that she did before the incarnation. Look at the movie about the reincarnation of emily rose. This was based on a true story. The guf is empty. The guf is the place of new souls so anyone born after the emptying of the guf is reincarnated.

 

[Nick the Pilot]

Radar et all,

I do not think the issue is reincarnation vs. monotheism. Rather, the issue is reincarnation vs. a religion which teaches the forgiveness of sins. Reincarnation is very much incompatible with a religion which teaches the forgiveness of sins. Christianity teaches the forgiveness of sins whereas Hinduism does not.

 

[donnann]

Radar et all,

I do not think the issue is reincarnation vs. monotheism. Rather, the issue is reincarnation vs. a religion which teaches the forgiveness of sins. Reincarnation is very much incompatible with a religion which teaches the forgiveness of sins. Christianity teaches the forgiveness of sins whereas Hinduism does not.

I do not understand where the view of forgiveness of sins is not comparable with reincarnation. Its another chance to do things right when in a previous life you have done things wrong. However I do believe in the forgiveness of sins. There is the guf which was a finite number of souls. Spirit which is consciousness is present along with soul and body. Spirit is first. The codes of the soul and body match the spirit. It is unchangeable. The guf is a finite number of souls because there was a finite number of spirits. That spirit place is empty. So is the guf. So anyone after the emptying of the guf and spirit place is a reincarnation. I am talking about the place of new spirit and new soul as the guf and spirit well. This is all in line with gods plan. Ever seen the movie What dreams may come with Robin Williams? They choose to go back to earth and find each other again. They are soulmates, spirit mates and body mates.

 

[donnann]

Radar et all,

I do not think the issue is reincarnation vs. monotheism. Rather, the issue is reincarnation vs. a religion which teaches the forgiveness of sins. Reincarnation is very much incompatible with a religion which teaches the forgiveness of sins. Christianity teaches the forgiveness of sins whereas Hinduism does not.

Hindus Ganges River Forgiveness of Sins
The 43-day festival takes its name of Kumbh Mela from Hindu mythology when the gods seized a pot of nectar that made them invincible in their war against the demons. One of the gods made off with the pot, spilling drops on 12 spots, four of them in India and the rest in the heavens.
One drop is said to have fallen where the Ganges joins the Yamuna River and the mythical Saraswati River. Hindus believe that bathing at the confluence of three sacred rivers on an auspicious day will absolve them of sin and speed them to nirvana after death. “Most of the people think that the sins we have created are washed away here,” said Mohan Sharma, as she stood in the cold water, fully clothed in a bright sari. ( Millions Wash Away Sins in India Festival - ABC News )

 

[donnann]

Radar et all,

I do not think the issue is reincarnation vs. monotheism. Rather, the issue is reincarnation vs. a religion which teaches the forgiveness of sins. Reincarnation is very much incompatible with a religion which teaches the forgiveness of sins. Christianity teaches the forgiveness of sins whereas Hinduism does not.

"How can you make denial of Allah, who made you live again when you died, will make you dead again, and then alive again, until you finally return to him?" (Sura 2, verse 28)

 

[Nick the Pilot]

Donnann,
　
Reincarnation is based on the idea of karma. Karma is the idea that what goes around, comes around, that if we do good things we will reap the benefit of them in the future, and if we do bad things we will suffer for them in the future. (These ideas are especially important in determining when the cycle of reincarnations will end, but such an idea takes this discussion off topic.)
　
I am not very familiar with Hinduism, but it is my understanding that reincarnation and karma are fundamental concepts within Hinduism. You have brought up the Hindu example of the three rivers. Every religion which teaches reincarnation and karma also has members which repudiate the ideas of reincarnation and karma and teach that bad karma can be removed by doing things like swimming in a ‘sacred’ river. Of course people like the lady in your story want to believe they will not be held responsible for the bad things they have done! There are examples of this in Buddhism as well. But I do not think that such examples in Hinduism and Buddhism prove that the foundations of Hinduism and Buddhism teach that ‘sins’ or bad karma can be removed by doing such things as swimming in ‘sacred’ rivers.
　
By the way, I do believe that swimming in ‘sacred’ rivers increases a person’s sense of spirituality and increases the amount of time they will spend in heaven. (I do not believe that heaven will be forever, which is the same as what the Bible originally taught.) But I do not think that doing such activities will decrease the amount of time they will have to spend in hell. (Yes, I believe people can spend time in both heaven and hell between incarnations, there is no reason to think otherwise.)
　
Reincarnation and karma go hand in hand with the idea that we will be held responsible for everything we do (just like the Bible says). The ides of the forgiveness of sins does not require people to be responsible for what they do, and so is incompatible with the ideas of reincarnation and karma.
　
I have no interest in any belief system which teaches that we will not be held responsible for the bad things we do. I do not understand why people think they can escape being held responsible for the bad things they do.

 

[Thomas]

The ides of the forgiveness of sins does not require people to be responsible for what they do

Oh Nick, you're stuck in this error like a broken record.
Forgiveness requires contrition. No contrition, no forgiveness.

If you insist on believing the above, perhaps you'd furnish us with the evidence?

Reincarnation and karma go hand in hand with the idea that we will be held responsible for everything we do.

I don't see how — 'you' don't suffer the consequence do you, someone else does.

 

[wil]

Forgiveness does not require contrition....forgiveness requires nothing and does nothing for the individual who has been perceived to have done wrong.

Say you murdered my sister. You have been tried and imprisoned. Or maybe you haven't and are out on the lamb. I choose to forgive you. I have released that hate, that animosity, that feeling I had towards you... What do you feel? What has happenned to you as you sit in your cell...or as you sit wondering when you are going to be found out? nothing.

Is your guilty conscience cleansed? no. Are you now innocent? No.

Forgiving is never for the perpetrator...but for the forgiver. Holding a grudge, leaving this blame and hate in my being has a negative impact on me, not the perp. Everytime I think of the incident, the event, or the person, my body creates negative thoughts, harmful chemicals in my system, my heart races, my blood pressure rises, it is a negative on ME to hold this...and forgiving is to my benefit.

If you think the 'other' person doesn't deserve to be forgiven you are wrong.... You deserve to forgive them, for it is for you, not them.

And yes...in reincarnation, karma, rebirth, forgiveness, we are all stuck in our beliefs, our understandings....and they are for us...when they are for you...you will understand.

there is Nick is right and Thomas is wrong or Donann is this or wil is that....these beliefs we believe are for us...they may change with more information, more experiences but we should be sharing our beliefs...

this place should be a place of conversation.....not conversion.

 

[radarmark]

Very good. wil. My wife forgives me my trespasses... but I am not fully conscious of them, so contrition does not enter it. Karma (which drives reincarnation) is really just a mental or spiritual example of cause and effect. Makes sense. Though like multi-verses, totally unknowable, un-falsibiale, un-provable.

 

[donnann]

Forgiveness does not require contrition....forgiveness requires nothing and does nothing for the individual who has been perceived to have done wrong.

Say you murdered my sister. You have been tried and imprisoned. Or maybe you haven't and are out on the lamb. I choose to forgive you. I have released that hate, that animosity, that feeling I had towards you... What do you feel? What has happenned to you as you sit in your cell...or as you sit wondering when you are going to be found out? nothing.

Is your guilty conscience cleansed? no. Are you now innocent? No.

Forgiving is never for the perpetrator...but for the forgiver. Holding a grudge, leaving this blame and hate in my being has a negative impact on me, not the perp. Everytime I think of the incident, the event, or the person, my body creates negative thoughts, harmful chemicals in my system, my heart races, my blood pressure rises, it is a negative on ME to hold this...and forgiving is to my benefit.

If you think the 'other' person doesn't deserve to be forgiven you are wrong.... You deserve to forgive them, for it is for you, not them.

And yes...in reincarnation, karma, rebirth, forgiveness, we are all stuck in our beliefs, our understandings....and they are for us...when they are for you...you will understand.

there is Nick is right and Thomas is wrong or Donann is this or wil is that....these beliefs we believe are for us...they may change with more information, more experiences but we should be sharing our beliefs...

this place should be a place of conversation.....not conversion.

There is forgiveness of sins and repentance through Jesus Christ. I went through literal hell for about 7 years after I was forgiven of my sins. I paid 10 times over for anything I had done. To me reincarnation means you start with a clean slate. We are products of our environment and I believe god looks at why we sinned...what the circumstances are. In order to violate a ten commandment all three conditions have to be met. One is there cannot be any influence by another to sin. Demonic possession is when consciousness that is foreign comes into a persons consciousness. Jesus was said to drive out demons. This is why we should not judge others. You do not know why they sinned.

 

[A Cup Of Tea]

Nick, do I understand you right when I think that you mean that a person who has 'sinned' (lets just call it that for now) deserves to suffer or be punished so that they understand what they did wrong?

 

[donnann]

Nick, do I understand you right when I think that you mean that a person who has 'sinned' (lets just call it that for now) deserves to suffer or be punished so that they understand what they did wrong?

Repentance is because a person understands what they did wrong. When I went through my 7 to 10 years of living hell I went to a catholic priest for confession. I told him what I had did wrong. He said I cracked the door to sin but someone else kicked it open. I paid my Karmic debt with suffering 24 7 for all those years but I overpaid. The sinless person doesn't ask someone to pay with suffering. When I went through that stuff I had changed my life. I became a vegan , no caffine, no cigarettes, no alcohol. I still continued to suffer. No matter what I did right , it didn't matter. Jesus is sinless and he doesn't require punishment for the forgiveness of sins.