Boston Bombers Muslim??

[Aupmanyav]

I don't believe the Quran allows such an attack, and this is not an act that anyone claiming Islam, following the Quran and the pillars could do....but of someone acting outside of the religion and being coerced by non Quranic hadiths and Imams...

It can be both ways. US has harmed muslims, therefore, acting against its interests is proper. Qur'an also says that leave the judgment to Allah. We cannot give life, so we have no right to take it. Ambiguous. Qur'an also says not to go against a government (whether muslim or non-muslim) and respect authority, since if Allah did not want it, he would not have given power to those people. Therefore, acting against a dictator (Assad for example) is wrong. Hope what I have written is correct.

 

[wil]

Muslims have harmed Muslims....Assad has harmed Muslims...

US now funding Al Queda to fight Assad....

US has not attacked Islam (aren't most of them in Indonesia?) but has attacked Iraq (taking out the leaderit supported for years) and Afganistan (to take out Al Queda, the remnants of the Mujadeen which it supported for years)...

But that is US govt.....not us.

 

[Etu Malku]

I've heard of murderers that claim satan told them to do it, what a murderous belief system you belong to, right! You should stop with that before you kill someone, it's right there in your religion. I don't feel like thinking any deeper then that, I'm just going to assume that all luciferians are evil and/or stupid because it's way simpler then actually judging people by their own individual actions.

You can claim anything you want, but Satan never told anyone to do anything simply because Satan doesn't exist and I can assure you any of those criminals in question would not be affiliated with any real Satanic organization, you're just spreading the old Satanic Panic again!

My belief system is not murderous, quite the opposite actually. Being lazy and not thinking is your prerogative, but unless you come up with something to back your accusations I will have to call you a liar and and an instigator.

 

[Etu Malku]

Etu Malku,

Like non religionists, or followers of polytheistic faiths, monotheists have screwed up many times. Sadly.

In regards to islamic scripture--Qur'an, it NEVER once speaks of "holy" wars. In fact, Qur'an says of war as unnecessary evil. The concept of "holy" war within Muslim communities has no islamic origin. "Jihad" means no war in a sense of how it is portrayed by some today. It means struggle, and one can struggle with himself or by non-violent mean.

The only time Muslims are justified to use violence is ONLY in self-defense. Even then, they are continually reminded in the Qur'an that being patient and using restraint is better. People are going to make mistakes, do evil things, and misinterpret what they are instructed. It is a terrible human condition. However, millions of monotheist DO NOT engage in wars or attack others first, and this fact in itself proves that majority of people who believe in One God (Jews, Christian and Muslims) live peacefully with the rest of the world.

I do not hear outrage against Buddhists in Burma/Mynamar who have been murdering Muslims for decades. It is a quiet genocide and no one is saying anything about it. We know that although Buddhism promotes mostly peace, the peaceful commands can be bypassed if they consider Buddhist rule and teaching as threatened.

Here are the verse from the Qur'an:

He does not forbid you to deal kindly and justly with anyone who has not fought you for your faith or driven you out of your homes: God loves the just. -Qur'an 60:8


. . . help one another to do what is right and good; do not help one another towards sin and hostility -Qur'an 5:2

Qur'an Chapter 22, verses 39-41: Those who have been attacked are permitted to take up arms because they have been wronged – God has the power to help them – those who have been driven unjustly from their homes only for saying, ‘Our Lord is God.’ If God did not repel some people by means of others, many monasteries, churches, synagogues, and mosques, where God’s name is much invoked, would have been destroyed. God is sure to help those who help His cause – God is strong and mighty – those who, when We establish them in the land, keep up the prayer, pay the prescribed alms, command what is right, and forbid what is wrong: God controls the outcome of all events.

"But if they incline towards peace, you [Prophet] must also incline towards it, and put your trust in God: He is the All Hearing, the All Knowing. If they intend to deceive you, God is enough for you: - Qur'an 8:61–2

Forgive and forbear until God brings about His order. - Qur'an: 2:109; see also 29:59; 16:42

Jihad in the form of war " becomes an obligation for defending religious freedom (22:39–41), for self-defence (2:190) and defending those who are oppressed: men, women and children who cry for help (4:75). It is the duty of the Muslims to help the oppressed, except against a people with whom the Muslims have a treaty (8:72)" (Islamic Awareness - IslamicAwareness.com - Learn more about Islam)

Fight in God’s cause against those who fight you, but do not overstep the limits: God does not love those who overstep the limits. - Qur'an 2:190


Prophet, tell those you have taken captive, ‘If God knows of any good in your hearts, He will give you something better than what has been taken from you, and He will forgive you: God is forgiving and merciful.’ But if they mean to betray you, they have betrayed God before, and He has given you mastery over them. -Qur'an 8:70–1

I believe my point is quite clear . . . that within the texts of both the Quran and the Judeo-Christian bible there exists quotes that Extremists identify with and obviously act on.

Is this saying that the messages found in these texts are genocidal and evil, no . . . it is saying that Extremists can condone their evil actions through these texts.

 

[A Cup Of Tea]

You can claim anything you want, but Satan never told anyone to do anything simply because Satan doesn't exist and I can assure you any of those criminals in question would not be affiliated with any real Satanic organization, you're just spreading the old Satanic Panic again!

My belief system is not murderous, quite the opposite actually. Being lazy and not thinking is your prerogative, but unless you come up with something to back your accusations I will have to call you a liar and and an instigator.

Wow, how can you so completely miss my point. I simply tied to illustrate the ridicules logic you use to condemn every Jew, Christian and Muslim that has ever lived and ever will live.

 

[Etu Malku]

Wow, how can you so completely miss my point. I simply tied to illustrate the ridicules logic you use to condemn every Jew, Christian and Muslim that has ever lived and ever will live.

I don't condemn every Abrahamic that ever lived, where do you get that crap from? I think I stated quite clearly my take on this Thread. You then attacked my belief system without warrant. My logic is not ridiculous (it's not even ridicules) . . . if you think I'm going to just sit here while person after person ignorantly blames Satan and Lucifer for everything, well that will never happen.

 

[Vessariò]

It seemed they were Muslim in name only. At least the younger one was known to have drank beer, enjoyed marijuana, and been influenced in general by American pop culture. The older brother, I'm not so sure about, but it didn't seem particularly religious either. He seemed more motivated by politics, in the vein of folks like Timothy McVeigh.

 

[A Cup Of Tea]

My logic is not ridiculous (it's not even ridicules)

Misspellings are relevant? Is that how you defend Satan?

I don't care about satan, I don't believe in a being like that, my accusations intended to mirror yours.

All three Abrahamic religions have scripture that enforces genocide of all other religions, this is nothing new. All three Abrahamic religions have also engaged in religious genocide at one time or another, again nothing new.

Basically: there where some people that killed other people in the name of a god.
So I say: I've heard of murderers that claim satan told them to do it.

All three Abrahamic religions have scripture that enforces genocide of all other religions, this is nothing new. All three Abrahamic religions have also engaged in religious genocide at one time or another, again nothing new.

When you say this you say nothing and way too much at the same time, and stating this as it stand in this thread is so incredibly insensitive I'm wondering if you have issues with empathy. And then you go around and rage at me because I say the same thing about your beliefs.

 

[Etu Malku]

Misspellings are relevant? Is that how you defend Satan?

I don't defend Satan . . . there is no Satan

I don't care about satan, I don't believe in a being like that, my accusations intended to mirror yours.

You did a poor job of it then

Basically: there where some people that killed other people in the name of a god.
So I say: I've heard of murderers that claim satan told them to do it.

Difference is, the Abrahamics usually belong to an organization which promotes this genocidal behavior through reward. There are no Satanic or Luciferian organizations that function in this respect other than the O9A

When you say this you say nothing and way too much at the same time, and stating this as it stand in this thread is so incredibly insensitive I'm wondering if you have issues with empathy. And then you go around and rage at me because I say the same thing about your beliefs.

My quote:
All three Abrahamic religions have scripture that enforces genocide of all other religions, this is nothing new. All three Abrahamic religions have also engaged in religious genocide at one time or another, again nothing new.

Merely stating the facts, it's not my fault how history has unfolded because of extremist religions.

And you have no basis to say the same of my Beliefs, I have murdered, raped, controlled no one in the name of Satan or Lucifer, I haven't destroyed cultures, forced anyone to convert, started a war in their name either. None of us have that I am aware of . . . if you can find opposing evidence please do.

 

[A Cup Of Tea]

Feel free to ignore my point, I no longer wish to discuss anything further with you.

 

[wil]

Etu....

Surely you are aware that none of us have raped or murdered in the name of our religion...

this is a place of discussion, not implied accusations!

 

[Etu Malku]

Etu....

Surely you are aware that none of us have raped or murdered in the name of our religion...

this is a place of discussion, not implied accusations!

I'm not implying that anyone here has done anything criminal in the name of their religion . . . is my point really that complex that no one seems to comprehend it?

How about you say that to A Cup of Tea when they immediately accused everyone in my Belief system of atrocities?

It is evident that throughout history the Jews, the Christians, and now the Muslims have had extremist sects that carried out atrocities towards the other religions in the hope to stamp them out and firmly root their own religion . . . that is religious genocide.

Nowhere in history are you going to find any established Satanic or Luciferian organization guilty of anything remotely like this.

That has been my point . . .

 

[bananabrain]

Oh come on . . . there were three major Judaic wars against the Roman Empire and Paganism directly

The Crusades lasted an unimaginable 196 years (1095 and 1291) where anything that moved which wasn't Christian was killed.

Now, we have the Muslim extremists and their scripture condoning violence

Like I said, nothing new . . . as for Judeo-Christian Scripture condoning the genocide of other religions and their people . . . no problem, glad you asked.


-God kills 70,000 innocent people because David ordered a census of the people (1 Chronicles 21).

-God also orders the destruction of 60 cities so that the Israelites can live there. -He orders the killing of all the men, women, and children of each city, and the looting of all of value (Deuteronomy 3).

-He orders another attack and the killing of “all the living creatures of the city: men and women, young, and old, as well as oxen sheep, and asses” (Joshua 6).

-In (Judges 21) He orders the murder of all the people of Jabesh-gilead

-In (2 Kings 10:18-27) God orders the murder of all the worshipers of a different god in their very own church!

so do you, therefore, accept that everything in the TaNaKh is a record of a historical fact and therefore evidence of a real genocide? or just the bits that you disapprove of?

incidentally, i have very little sympathy with the "no true scotsman" argument that says that "the bombers were doing something that i as a muslim disagree with, therefore they weren't muslims, nor were they acting as muslims"; i'm afraid that is refusing to face up to more challenging aspects of jihadi ideology.

b'shalom

bananabrain

 

[User010]

incidentally, i have very little sympathy with the "no true scotsman" argument that says that "the bombers were doing something that i as a muslim disagree with, therefore they weren't muslims, nor were they acting as muslims"; i'm afraid that is refusing to face up to more challenging aspects of jihadi ideology.

b'shalom

bananabrain

Bananabrain, I absolutely agree with you that the "no true scotsman" types of arguments are problematic. However, I think it is notable that there is legitimate reasoning behind why the actions of the Boston bombers are NOT Islamic..there isn't anything in the Quran or Hadith that condones killing of innocent civilians; in fact, quite the opposite is the case.

When people simply say "This isn't Islamic because I am Muslim and I disagree," that is a total fail. However, when people can provide evidence with scripture and whatnot, then I think their claims are obviously legitimized.

 

[wil]

when Jews, Muslims, Christians...stand up and say 'This is not of our belief, these are outliers...this is not what we are promoting and this needs to be stopped" That I listen to...more than those that promote the violence using their radical views of religion to incite.

Etu...we've got no way of knowing of or if your satanists/luciferians committed whatever...how many of you are there??? When Muslims, or Hindus or Christians do something..we are aware...they are over half the worlds population....

 

[Etu Malku]

so do you, therefore, accept that everything in the TaNaKh is a record of a historical fact and therefore evidence of a real genocide? or just the bits that you disapprove of?

incidentally, i have very little sympathy with the "no true scotsman" argument that says that "the bombers were doing something that i as a muslim disagree with, therefore they weren't muslims, nor were they acting as muslims"; i'm afraid that is refusing to face up to more challenging aspects of jihadi ideology.

b'shalom

bananabrain

But what do these Muslim 'Traditionalists' do about the atrocities committed in the name of Islam? Seems as if they just distance themselves from it and claim no responsibility for terrorist actions.

What they should be doing is being active in the pursuit to clear the name of Islam. This cowardly stance only creates more animosity towards them and puts doubt in non-Muslims that secretly the Muslim Traditionalists are in on it all.

 

[Etu Malku]

Etu...we've got no way of knowing of or if your satanists/luciferians committed whatever...how many of you are there??? When Muslims, or Hindus or Christians do something..we are aware...they are over half the worlds population....

We are a very small group so far, being a one of the Magi of the Ordo Luciferi allows me to keep tabs on most goings-on in the other Luciferian Orders and most of the Satanic organizations.

So far we have a very clean record!

You'll find any criminal activities associated with (usually Satanism) to be committed by someone who has never, and is not a member of any organized LHP group. They are usually delusional psychopaths that have created this 'Evil Satan' monster telling them to commit these atrocities.
And even that is the Abrahamics fault because it is they who have created this false illusion of Satan and Lucifer, not us.

 

[Amica]

Etu Mulku,

Thousands of Muslims have condemned the attacks. What more do you want people to do? I do not see the outrage about 1 million murdered Iraqis for the past 10 years, and mind you, the war with Iraq IS NOT justified. What should Budhists do, then, about their genocidal attacks on Mynamar's Muslims? I do not see them do anything but condemn the violence. People are active in their communities in a way that they hold conferences and welcome others to the sites of worship to educate about what Islam/their faith is.

Plus, the media in the West (like everywhere else) is HIGHLY censored. You would not know if Muslims did anything to condemn the violence.

 

[Amica]

Bananabrain,

Why is it not right for Muslims to deny someone is a Muslim if they do something contradictory to the islamic teachings, but it is OK to do for other followers of the faiths? Yes, Muslims have lots to face up and lots of things to change within their communities, but so do others. Whenever a Christian commits terrorism, everyone is quick to denounce him/her and say he/she is not a Christian. And that is accepted worldwide. The same with Buddhists or others. Well, why shouldn't the Muslims have the same right? Terrorism is not unique to those who believe themselves to be Muslims. No true believer in Allah SWT would terrorize others.

 

[wil]

Amica....i'd give you cred if I could but there doesn't seem to be a link to click on....

And Etu...I'd give you cred to if you'd come to understand that those who commit these atrocities are ALL delusional psychopaths...that someone has deluded into believing they are doing the right thing...