Common Figure of Speech/Colloquial Language?

I wonder if anyone knows of any writing from the first century or before that shows a phrase stating a specific number of days and/or a specific number of nights when it absolutely couldn't have included at least a part of each one of the specific number of days and at least a part of each one of the specific number of nights?
I doubt it, for the simple reason that the authors of Scripture were not as fixated on the empirical detail as we are today. Remember this is a spiritual testimony, not a scientific one.

Because we do not possess empirically undeniable proof, one can argue the point a number of ways —
1: That Friday-Sunday is patently not three days and three nights, not even 48 hours, therefore Scripture is 'wrong'.

2: The Passover was determined by the lunar calendar, not by the day of the week. So, if Nisan 14 falls on a Tuesday/Wednesday (as it did in AD30), then the body is in the tomb Thursday, Friday and Saturday ...

3: The 'three days and three nights' signifies an esoteric teaching regarding the stages of the ascending soul — Purgative, Illuminative, Unitive — this was not codified until the 6th century by Dionysius the pseudoAreopagite, but it is somewhat generic to the world's spiritual traditions and would not be alien to the Jews of Jesus' time.
 
It probably goes back to Jonah being in the whale for three days and three nights is my guess...

Jonah 1:17 Now the LORD had prepared a great fish to swallow up Jonah. And Jonah was in the belly of the fish three days and three nights.


and in the Gospel of

Matthew 12:39

But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas: 12:40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.



Look at the Gospel of Luke 11:29

And when the people were gathered thick together, he began to say, This is an evil generation: they seek a sign; and there shall no sign be given it, but the sign of Jonas the prophet.

11:30 For as Jonas was a sign unto the Ninevites, so shall also the Son of man be to this generation.



Now compare the above Gospel verses with the Gospel of Mark 8:11

And the Pharisees came forth, and began to question with him, seeking of him a sign from heaven, tempting him.

8:12

And he sighed deeply in his spirit, and saith, Why doth this generation seek after a sign? verily I say unto you, There shall no sign be given unto this generation.

It may be the Markan verses being earlier were conflated...?
 
Hi arthra —
It probably goes back to Jonah being in the whale for three days and three nights is my guess...
Well Our Lord was pretty well versed in the Hebrew Scriptures, and would have used those images in His own ministry.

Look at Jonah in context — he was in the belly of the whale because he was sacrificed by the crew of the ship in which he was travelling.

Chapter 2 offers an extended metaphor on the human condition and on faith in God, so there are many correspondences here, as there are to other Hebrew texts.
 
May I have some more info on what is behind door number three please?
The Purgative, the Illuminative, the Unitive? Oh, there's tons of it! I would say its generic to all traditions. But I don't really think it's got anything to do with the three days on the cross ...

Much more likely is the Johannine reading (he being the closest thing we have to an 'eye witness') that puts the crucifixion not on the Friday. The Passover is marked according to the moon, not the day of the week, and if we follow John then He could have been in the tomb for three days and three nights, and all the problems are resolved.

+++

If you look into the Three Ways, I would point out that I disagree that they are hard, progressive steps — that you move from one to the next, to the next — that is obvious, but also all three are active within each step, and all three are active all the time, so that even he or she who has experience the third step is not exempt from the need for ascesis and prayer.

Later Christian writers, Hugh of Balma (13th c) for example, correlated the three to three ages – beginners, proficients, and the perfect – designating each age by the corresponding degree, thus beginners purify themselves of sin and its effects, proficients seek growth in the practice of virtue virtue and the perfect exercise union with God.

Obvious, superficially, but no-one is 'perfect' (and resting on one's laurels is itself a vice). Likewise the beginner might experience Divine Union whereas the long-term 'proficient' perhaps never does — that does not mean the 'proficient' is not as good, it may well indicate that he or she is better, and the momentary divine union, or beatific vision, or whatever, is given to the beginner (or the perfect) to bolster them, being still children, whereas the one who 'walks the walk' and never, ever, received one single solitary sign, is actually more 'advanced' (by our terms) because they have passed beyond the needs of signs and truly walk in the Divine Darkness ...

Or, in short, I regard it as an organic process rather than a progressive series of categories into which people can be separated.

It's notable that if one reads the Gospels, then the ones who Christ regards as 'justified' are so far removed from the modern notion of 'the mystic' that I doubt the latter is any reliable measure of anything meaningful whatsoever ... certainly, "the Way of the Publican" (Luke 18:10-14) or "the Way of the Widow" (Luke 21:1-4) would be a far more sure and easier method of spiritual advancement, but I fear that degree of kenosis/humility is just unpalatable to philosophical relativism that rules the roost today.
 
No uptake on the most viable and indeed likely solution to the three days thing?

Let me reiterate: say Christ was not crucified on a Friday, but earlier in the week (as John's gospel, the closest we have to an eye-witness, actually suggests). It's quite likely then that He was in the tomb for three days and three nights.

And let's face it, they were never real objections anyway. If we found hard evidence to prove any one of these 'objections' (and in many cases we have), I doubt that would alter anything, in my experience the objector simply ignores what the evidence suggests, and skips on to the next 'objection'.

Which means the objection is really an excuse, and was never really taken seriously. In which case, why should we?

+++

If you believe, as I do, that what marks Christianity is that symbol and metaphor are realised in actuality, that the events recorded in Scripture are not simply mythic motifs but the Transcendent manifest in the mundane, then all the objections melt away ...

My question, which no-one has ever been able to answer to my satisfaction, is why God cannot manifest in human form, why the Word cannot become flesh?

And why cannot those 'myths' and 'symbols' and 'metaphors' be realised as actualities?
 
Thomas -- of course g!d can manifest as h! wants. I agree with you. The whole "three day" thing is pretty much confused because of the differences between Greco-Roman and Hebrew days. But John is the best source (I agree with you) and lays out a reasonablke timeline (which you have pointed out).
 
So what you are saying Thomas...is that the Maundy Thursday and Good Friday traditions....are lies.
This is the reason I stopped posting to IO ... thanks for the reminder that I really am just wasting my time.
 
This is the reason I stopped posting to IO ... thanks for the reminder that I really am just wasting my time.

Excuse me?? I have been going to maundy thurs foot washings and discussions and good friday services annually!!

Unless I misunderstood you, you were saying Jesus was crucified earlier in the week, that passover wasn't neccesarily on Friday....the simple explanation.
The Passover was determined by the lunar calendar, not by the day of the week. So, if Nisan 14 falls on a Tuesday/Wednesday (as it did in AD30), then the body is in the tomb Thursday, Friday and Saturday ...

I am here to learn and discuss...

No uptake on the most viable and indeed likely solution to the three days thing?

Let me reiterate: say Christ was not crucified on a Friday, but earlier in the week (as John's gospel, the closest we have to an eye-witness, actually suggests). It's quite likely then that He was in the tomb for three days and three nights.

Let me reiterate.... you can't throw your hands up and run out the door when someone asks a question... I could post a long winded column with multiple questions....and much confusion instead I asked one.


If what you are implying is the correct analysis, is the tradition I grew up with, the tradition I annually dance to the tune of BS?? If not why not?
 
back to three nights....please name the three nights he was in the tomb...
1. The biblical jebus is a 100% Historical MYTH!

2. According to the biblical Story book, it lay in its tomb for 3 (incomplete Days & Nights)

1 Hour of Day 1 (approx. 5:00 PM) (John 19:41-42) bible Story book
24 hours of Day 2
24 Hours of Day 3

Total 3 Days & 3 Nights

jebus seen as Dawn approached at (approx. 5:00 AM Day 3 (Matt. 28:1 - 2)) bible Story book
 
Is it important that the exact day is celebrated or is it enough that people come together to reflect on...whatever you Christians reflect on.
The latter.

Scripture and Tradition go hand in hand, and Scripture is the 'last word' as it were, but it should also be remembered that the Tradition came first.

The way I read it.

The teaching was (from what we can glean) that Our Lord was crucified on the eve of the Sabbath observance, and rose from the dead on the day after, according to the data of Scripture.

Thus the Early Christian Communities celebrated the Eucharist on the day following the Sabbath, not just annually, but weekly; the Hebrew Sabbath is Friday-Saturday (dusk-dusk), so the Christian Sabbath would be Saturday-Sunday (dusk-dusk).

At first the ECC followed the Hebrew calendar. Growing tensions within the communities however, soon led to schism.

We can see in Acts that the Sanhedrin carpeted Peter and John over their preaching in the temple, and we can be pretty sure they put pressure on the community to ostracise the Christian blasphemers. James, a constant presence on the Temple (he was said to have knees like a donkey for the hours he spent in prayer) was killed, as was Stephen. Attempts were made on St Paul's life, and in the end it needed a considerable escort to get him out of the city, something done in the middle of the night to escape notice by the hotheads planning to kill him.

I very much doubt the two communities lived in peaceful co-existence.

In 60AD in Rome there were running street battles between Jewish and Christian mobs. Eventually the Jews forbad Christians from entering the synagogue.

The Christians responded by establishing their faith as distinct from Judaism. They have the Passover, we have the Resurrection.

It was a simple step, from there, to 'dispose' of the Hebrew calendar and fix a uniquely Christian 'stand-alone' event. Easter is still worked from the lunar calendar, but rather than the three days being determined according to the highpoint of the Jewish year, it's determined according to the highpoint of the Christian one — which was, by the then-established tradition, a Sunday.

For the Christian, the Resurrection is the thing: "And if Christ be not risen again, your faith is vain, for you are yet in your sins" (1 Corinthians 15:17).

The Christian Faith does not stand or fall on what day Nisan 14 fell in what year. It really doesn't matter. What matters, as our Orthodox brothers and sisters say, is that "Christ is risen! He is risen indeed!"

I think this practice was first established in Rome. In the east the communities continued to follow the Hebrew calendar for some while longer.
 
In fact, the Eastern rites still yet follow the lunar calendar.

I am very proud of you, my friend Thomas. The important part is not merely the words but the overall historical tradition, which you have a very good handle on,
 
When you say lie, do mean a mistake in translation, you do you actually mean that someone when out of their way to deceive everyone?

Is it important that the exact day is celebrated or is it enough that people come together to reflect on...whatever you Christens reflect on.

Well if this is a major contemplation amongst the heirarchy in religion...I feel fairly duped. If people have been saying for centuries (before I was born) that these annual traditions days are simply made up, for some calendar sake...without telling us...or having it as open discussion...I'd call that intentional deception.

As a child the whole Christmas time is Jesus birth....when you find that is a lie, it is a punch in the spiritual gut. Why not tell children that we dont' know when he was born, but it was most likely in June...and we simply celebrate it on Dec 25th... For the past 10 years 12 year olds and up we openly discuss this in our sunday school class...

I just utterly dislike concealment of facts. The house of cards falls when folks are deceived...for decades.
 
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