There are fairies at the bottom of my garden!

[Quirkybird]

Well said. That's the perfect angle, at least from my vantage point. It brings to mind the words of Christ Himself. Several times He spoke of people who, though they had perfectly healthy eyes, couldn't see.

As we will recall, the bible teaches that eyes that see, ears that hear, and the ability to discern, are gifts from the Creator. Looks like Quirkybird may have gotten a lump of coal in her stocking, but, that can always be turned around. I am confident that one day it will, and, those gifts will be lavished upon her in spades.

Aside: I just learned that discernmanship is not a word. Is there not a word with the root discern that describes the ability?

What a silly patronising statement! What you mean is that you have the 'truth' but poor little me is blind to it. It would be funny if it wasn't so pathetic! None of us have the elusive 'truth' of the matter. However much a person believes something faithwise to be 'true' as there is no evidence to back it up it can only be surmise!

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

I am willing to bet that the Christians who believe in things which are just as fantastical but come from the Bible, would not accept the existence of fairies, for instance. What is the difference?

What a silly patronising statement!

Ahhh, the pot issues a stunning retort to the kettle.

 

[Quirkybird]

I don't claim to have the 'truth'!

 

[Frrostedman]

I don't claim to have the 'truth'!

We all have at least some truth. I think what you mean is you don't claim to have all the truth.

And, I just reviewed all my posts and I can't find a single one where I claimed to have all the truth either.

And hey, it was you, not me, that brought up the fact that you couldn't see the difference between the bible and a children's book of fairytales. I merely commented that your admitted blindness to what is obvious to the rest of us, is symptomatic of what the Lord Jesus Christ talked about.

You say I don't have any evidence to back up my faith. You're wrong. I may not have evidence that would convince you, but, I do have evidence. The only evidence I have as far as you are concerned, is my personal testimony. And really, that's all the evidence any Christian has ever had to offer.

 

[Frrostedman]

I don't claim to have the 'truth'!

Maybe not directly word-for-word. But you do claim to know that what others say is false. To make that judgment you have to know the truth.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Maybe not directly word-for-word. But you do claim to know that what others say is false. To make that judgment you have to know the truth.

Why should that hold true? I may not know the truth of what happened to Jimmy Hoffa but I feel reasonably justified discounting alien abduct and death by Lithuanian Zombies.

 

[Frrostedman]

Why should that hold true? I may not know the truth of what happened to Jimmy Hoffa but I feel reasonably justified discounting alien abduct and death by Lithuanian Zombies.

If someone claims alien abduction (and there are probably plenty of people that do!) then by discounting their claim, you are at the same time claiming to know more truth than them, or, you claim superior knowledge (knowledge is knowing the truth, right)

 

[Quirkybird]

We all have at least some truth. I think what you mean is you don't claim to have all the truth.

And, I just reviewed all my posts and I can't find a single one where I claimed to have all the truth either.

And hey, it was you, not me, that brought up the fact that you couldn't see the difference between the bible and a children's book of fairytales. I merely commented that your admitted blindness to what is obvious to the rest of us, is symptomatic of what the Lord Jesus Christ talked about.

You say I don't have any evidence to back up my faith. You're wrong. I may not have evidence that would convince you, but, I do have evidence. The only evidence I have as far as you are concerned, is my personal testimony. And really, that's all the evidence any Christian has ever had to offer.

You have evidence which convinces you, which is fair enough. But what you haven't got is irrefutable evidence that would convince doubters like myself. I don't want to change anyone's faith, that is their business. However I will stand my ground when people try to convert me, or worse still use their faith in an abusive way and make the lives of others miserable.

 

[Thomas]

You have evidence which convinces you, which is fair enough.

I think Frosty is being hard on himself.

There is plenty of evidence to demonstrate beyond doubt that your assumptions are ill-informed, and founded on prejudice.

You don't have to believe.

There are atheists who nevertheless point to the Bible as being a source of counsel, wisdom, insight and plain good common sense.

Indeed, there are many, many Christians who have been inspired by its content and have done great things in this world.

But you refuse to see that. The truth just highlights the vacuity of your opinions. Your soul is full of spite.

Look in a library. Better yet, if you're serious, and not just bandying ignorance and uninformed opinion, look in a university library. Or read this. It's a bit long, but it is well explained, reasonably and rationally.

Or ask your daughter, I'm sure she can put you straight.

But what you haven't got is irrefutable evidence that would convince doubters like myself.

No, there are always those who simply refuse to see reason.

However I will stand my ground when people try to convert me, or worse still use their faith in an abusive way and make the lives of others miserable.

The point is, no-one here is trying to convert you, are they?

No-one here is damning you to hell, are they?

But you continue to vent your spleen on us all, indiscriminately.

It's patently a displacement mechanism. It's your parents, your pastors and your congregation you should be talking to. Or a therapist, so you can 'get it off your chest'. Our American friends call it 'closure' ...

 

[Quirkybird]

There is plenty of evidence to demonstrate beyond doubt that your assumptions are ill-informed, and founded on prejudice.

Such as?

It is interesting that when some have their faith challenged they make statements like the one above, but never manage to come up with any evidence!

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

If someone claims alien abduction (and there are probably plenty of people that do!) then by discounting their claim, you are at the same time claiming to know more truth than them, or, you claim superior knowledge (knowledge is knowing the truth, right)

You are moving the goalpost - and doing so more or less incoherently. The sad part about it is that you probably don't even know it.

The fact remains: the claim that what someone says is false in no way constitutes a claim of knowing the truth.

 

[A Cup Of Tea]

There is plenty of evidence to demonstrate beyond doubt that your assumptions are ill-informed, and founded on prejudice.

Such as?

It is interesting that when some have their faith challenged they make statements like the one above, but never manage to come up with any evidence!

I've seen everyone here point out your ill-informed prejudice, some of faith, some not.
Is the world mad, or are you?

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

I don't want to change anyone's faith, that is their business.

I can't believe you said that with a straight beak.

On second thought, perhaps you right. Perhaps the intent is simply to mock. Sad.

 

[Quirkybird]

I can't believe you said that with a straight beak.

On second thought, perhaps you right. Perhaps the intent is simply to mock. Sad.

I don't say things I don't mean! I make NO apologies for challenging some of nastier aspects of Christianity!

 

[Thomas]

There is plenty of evidence to demonstrate beyond doubt that your assumptions are ill-informed, and founded on prejudice.
Such as?

Such as your assumptions that because you've been dealt with badly by some in your own social circle, you assume that of everything and everyone — the Bible, all Christians — are at fault.

It is interesting that when some have their faith challenged they make statements like the one above...

Haha! You call your rantings a challenge.

With all due respect, my dear (if I may, I am older than you), you constitute no challenge. I've yet to see you 'challenge' anything but the credulity of your audience to take you seriously by your claims.

I think it's more interesting to note that when challenged, your stock response is an attempted deflection by maligning the character of the challenger, backed up by your assertion that you have the right to think what you like.

In fact, unlike yourself, I endorse your right to freedom of thought and expression. Like you however, I also exercise my right to point out hypocrisy and prejudice when I see it. Reason is never served by the irrational.

I'm neither challenged nor surprised by your words. It might surprise you to know you're not the only person in the world with a very low opinion of the Bible. Indeed, you're among company here, on that score.

I ceased to be 'challenged' by stuff like that a long time ago. BobX (to those who remember) ... now there's a man who could stop me in my tracks!

I miss him.

(It's probably escaped your notice that there are no 'Christian literalists' here.)

... but never manage to come up with any evidence!

Er ... I rather think you're ignoring the reference I provided?

Is one not enough ... although I doubt you even looked at it, let alone read it ... but OK, here's some more:

Augustine. Ambrose. Athanasius. Anselm. Aquinas.
Basil. Bernard. Bonaventure. Boethius. Barnabas.
Clement (of Rome). Clement (of Alexandria). Cyril (of Jerusalem). Commodianus. Cyprian.
I can keep this up, you know ...

Too 'old school'? OK.
Ricoeur. Lonngergan. Bonhoffer. De Lubac. Ratzinger. Rahner. Von Balthasar. Borella. Stein. Burrows. Bolding. Merton. Graham Greene. T.S. Eliot...

While we're on it, how about some of your references and your evidence?

 

[Thomas]

I don't say things I don't mean! I make NO apologies for challenging some of nastier aspects of Christianity!

That's the difference between you as a secular fundamentalist, and me as a reasonable Christian.

Whilst I don't say things I don't mean, I DO apologise for the ills done in the name of Christ. I then ask if we can find some common ground.

Yours is destructive. Mine is constructive.

Here's a bit of advice from someone who suffered a lot worse than you:
"Judge not, that you may not be judged, For with what judgment you judge, you shall be judged: and with what measure you mete, it shall be measured to you again. And why seest thou the mote that is in thy brother' s eye; and seest not the beam that is in thy own eye? Or how sayest thou to thy brother: Let me cast the mote out of thy eye; and behold a beam is in thy own eye? Thou hypocrite, cast out first the beam in thy own eye, and then shalt thou see to cast out the mote out of thy brother' s eye."
Matthew 7:1-5

Challenge that, if you will.

 

[A Cup Of Tea]

BobX (to those who remember) ... now there's a man who could stop me in my tracks!

I miss him.

Wish I could give you +1 for that one. Rather angry about a lot of things, as I remember, but he sure was informed.

 

[wil]

bobx memory lane... headed for the recliner in the lounge to have a guiness and reminisce...

 

[Namaste Jesus]

Seems lots of folks are upset with QB these days. I must admit, I got upset with her a time or two myself in the beginning. She does say some outlandish things sometimes. I've come to accept her for who she is though and find her delightfully balmy!

Still, if what she says bothers anyone, there's a simple solution. Don't respond to her posts. All this squabbling really serves no purpose other than to fuel the fire for more and more useless bickering.

Get over it and move on for goodness sake.

 

[Frrostedman]

You are moving the goalpost - and doing so more or less incoherently. The sad part about it is that you probably don't even know it.

The fact remains: the claim that what someone says is false in no way constitutes a claim of knowing the truth.

Ok, I'm not stubborn, or unwilling to admit when I'm wrong. I don't think I deserved the indignant tone in your response, however, as I was at least asking if I was correct.

Ok fine. I'll put the goalposts back to where they were. So quirkybird's issue is that Christians claim to know truth, whereas quirkybird makes no such claim to any truth at all. From a position of not knowing the truth, how can someone justifiably declare someone else wrong?

From a position of utter and complete ignorance (knowing no truth whatsoever), one cannot, in my view judge the claims of anyone else. If, for argument's sake, quirkybird claims to know just enough truth to know that Christian claims are wrong, but nothing else... well... that's not a very believable stance.

In your comparison using silly claims like alien abduction or death by Lithuanian zombies, you claimed that it's justifiable for one who knows no truth to dismiss such outlandish claims. But in the context of this discussion, your premise is false because your analogy isn't apples to apples. That is, unless you are prepared to demonstrate how the claims of the Holy Bible are no more credible than silly, made up, uncorroborated, wild claims like the ones you cited.