Theosophy vs. Syncretism

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This post contains a couple of brief excerpts from Wikipedia for help with the topic, plus a good bit of commentary towards the end. My intention is to take a second pass, perhaps adding some additional thoughts, but please feel free to chime in - anyone who has observations, caveats or questions - in the meantime. I may have to sleep on it for awhile before I come up with some inspiration ...

The first excerpt is on `syncretism' in an effort to help clarify why Theosophical teachings do not fit under this category.

The second is `conflation,' simply because I think this word is used a lot (by some of us pedantic types) ... but not always with clarity, kind of like - syncretism.

My hope is that the combination of these two definitions will help folks to prevent the conflating of various ideas ... and thus enjoy more amicable, informed discussions!

From the Wiki entry on Syncretism:

"Syncretism /ˈsɪŋkrətɪzəm/ is the combining of different, often seemingly contradictory beliefs, while melding practices of various schools of thought. Syncretism involves the merger and analogizing of several originally discrete traditions, especially in the theology and mythology of religion, thus asserting an underlying unity and allowing for an inclusive approach to other faiths. Syncretism also occurs commonly in expressions of arts and culture (known as eclecticism) as well as politics (syncretic politics).

The Theosophical Society, as opposed to Theosophy, professes to go beyond being a syncretic movement that combines deities into an elaborate Spiritual Hierarchy, and assembles evidence that points to an underlying (or occult) reality of Being that is universal and interconnected, common to all spirit-matter dualities. It is maintained that this is the source of religious belief, each religion simply casting that one reality through the prism of that particular time and in a way that is meaningful to their circumstances.

Examples of strongly syncretist Romantic and modern movements with some religious elements include mysticism, occultism, Theosophical Society, modern astrology, Neopaganism, and the New Age movement."​

From the Wiki entry on Conflation:

"Conflation occurs when the identities of two or more individuals, concepts, or places, sharing some characteristics of one another, seem to be a single identity — the differences appear to become lost. In logic, it is the practice of treating two distinct concepts as if they were one, which produces errors or misunderstandings as a fusion of distinct subjects tends to obscure analysis of relationships which are emphasized by contrasts. However, if the distinctions between the two concepts appear to be superficial, intentional conflation may be desirable for the sake of conciseness and recall."​

An example given on Wiki:

All bats are animals.
Some wooden objects are bats.
Therefore, some wooden objects are animals.

I think we can see where the trouble is on this one - the conflating of concepts which really cannot be overlapped ... and I also hope it becomes clear why some folks reject the labeling of Theosophy as a syncretic belief system.

It's a bit like considering science's understanding of the sun, or of the basics of astronomy in general. We can say that century by century, and now decade by decade, we learn more information about our universe, and especially about our own star and its local [visible] planets. There are new techniques of what we might call `perception' using frequencies of light outside of the visible spectrum, such as X-ray ... and sure enough, we now know that `rogue planets' exist, apparently moving freely through space, without being tethered to a star in the traditional sense (of regular orbits) at all.

Yet in all of this progression of understanding, from Galileo & Kepler, Copernicus and Giordano Bruno to Einstein, Hubble and Hawking ... never do we have the mistaken understanding that the Sun did not exist, same great big ball of plasma up there in the `heavens' ... supporting all of our solar system's life as we know it. Not that they taught the concept of *plasma* to kids like me in high school or college. They didn't speak of such things back then, as a 4th state of matter simply - did not exist. Or else it was too cutting edge to make it into the textbooks for us kids to digest.

The point, then, is that for Theosophists, there has always been a Perennia Sophis, or Sacred Tradition, and this is what we believe informs all of the Earth's religions - from Day 0 to Present, and certainly from here on into the inscrutable future. What is posited is that the Wisdom which we find expressed in each of the world's great Faiths was brought to our own planet from Sirius, originally ... though by way of the Venusian Lords of the Flame, some 18-21 million years ago. Since Humanity was in no state then to take proper advantage of such a momentous `Arrival' ... we ourselves had to slowly (and I do mean slowly) adapt - including the literal taking of physical bodies - in order to benefit from the `Oldest Religion.'

These are stories being told in a way that will more easily reach the intelligent, imaginative and interested seeker for Truth these days, whereas even 100 years ago it was impossible to really study or hope to grasp the profundity of such Teachings without a rather extensive, scholarly library at one's disposal, for reference's sake ... not to mention an intellect that had already made a considerable foray into the occult literature available at the time. And keep in mind, even in the mid-1800s, there were plenty of treatises available if you knew where to find them, despite our having lost a considerable wealth of such spiritual wisdom in the destruction of the Alexandrian Library.

Indeed, the Sun has always shone forth freely upon the good denizens of its various worlds. This, for the esotericist, is the spiritual parallel and even prototype of God's more Earthly-expressed, unconditional or compassionate love for all beings - in all kingdoms, both seen and unseen. To say that the Divine has clothed a tiny, tiny measure of itself (even as fractal theory pretty well shows, conceptually, as being something quite imaginable - however abstractly - being itself the *visual* and mathematical key to grasping the idea) and taken denser and denser forms, eventually resulting in the open walking about amongst us - AS one of us, literally clothed in the same skin & bones as expressed in Job 10:11 - is part & parcel of a most ancient and grand notion, accepted as a fairly basic tenet by most Theosophists, who readily affirm the same Divinity, in more latent or embryonic form, within their fellow human (and other) beings.

Sri Krishna expresses this very idea in the ancient Bhagavad Gita, the `Song of the Lord,' with the words:

"Having pervaded the entire Universe with a fragment of Myself, I remain."​

Kevin Smith took a jab at the notion that the Almighty may have `withdrawn' Himself from on-high in order to do this, in the beginning of the movie `Dogma,' and the objection has not gone unnoticed by a number of his fans, me being one. Perhaps the difficulty is with our tendency to forget that God CAN be in "two places, times, universes, state of mind, etc." at the same time, since we ourselves are not yet accustomed to it. Still, the Wisdom does tend to affirm that God has "clothed Himself" in matter to make Himself more knowable to us, and to allow us to - however this works - "approach the Throne." Fortunately, Dogma resolves the issue quite well, and things are restored as neatly as possible by the end of the flick, with help from Alanis Morissette, as the Almighty.

Thus, we have the precise notion that God has taken form, as truly as the Sun has taken upon itself to shine forth and warm, nurture and literally inVigorate every single lifeform upon all of the planets of its many lesser systems. All are integrated into one whole, just as the atom or the human being, yet on vastly larger - and more spiritually as well as materially evolved - scale. As Above, So Below - runs the Hermetic axiom, and this shows us that our evolution is a continuity ... from the tiniest of lives to the very grandest. Ironically, for those confounded by size (or conflating the notion of progress with the assumption that bigger=better) and appearance, it may just turn out that some of the most evolved entities in the cosmos do not need or use a body of any type that we can perceive at all ... meaning that they may well consist of Pure Energy, or what scientists now call Dark Energy. Others, to be certain, come and go - from other planets, dimensions, worlds or spheres of existence - through what we are calling Dark Matter, yet I would suggest that it is easier to relate to them on `human terms,' since we are on the cusp of discovering that Humanity, in truth, is one, giant, intergalactic cosmic Brotherhood.

The theme here is that if such assertions and tenets, and many others held by Theosophists, turn out to be true, we will begin to accept as obvious - as obvious as the sun in the heavens above - that each religion has been like the current century or decade's effort (echoed by modern science) to grasp the same Light, even the same Love, as well as Purpose of a loving Deity, for a New Era ... of the one Human Family. Mileage may vary, and we each perhaps drive a slightly different model of vehicle, yet the road to Rome is well-marked both day and night, and the testimony of the many travelers is that such a place most definitely exists - even if I myself have yet to `arrive.'

In the last analysis, how do I *know* that it is so? Verily, Plato told us so! And thankfully, many a seeker has seen to it to pursue a similar awakening within the Cave ...

Obviously, this is a bit of a big-picture, catch-all type of approach, because I just happen to believe that the Teacher's `net's are no less *wide* than my mind can fathom ... and I personally have concluded that if indeed there is a `God,' the Love of such a being, even relative to and for the Human Family, knows no conditions or bounds.

In a more compressed picture, we can only investigate the history of `The Wisdom' as far back as we feel we can comfortably - or even, if by a bit of a stretch, *conceptually* - relate to it. Thus, I think we stretch ourselves to try to comprehend Earth's evolution on the spiritual planes some 18 million years ago, while an investigation of more recent history ... say, about a million years ago up to 200,000 ... makes a bit better sense. This is the period, after all, where I predict historians, geologists, anthropologists, and thinkers of all sorts will eventually focus their study & scientific investigations, once they have realized that Egypt's pyramids have stood in place for as many as eight cycles of the Greater Zodiac (the Egyptian Denderah itself *records* three of these, for some 75,000+ years), the Sphinx predating even the pyramids.

Today's science already proves that the erosion damage on the latter monument was caused by water, not wind, evidencing the Sphinx's construction as being *prior* to the last ice age of ~12,500ya. What records were stored beneath the paws of the Guardian, telling of our ancestors' struggle for civilization and quest for meaning? Time will tell, as to date, any findings have been censored (if not worse) ... and further investigations halted until Dr. Zahi Hawass regains the full confidence of an ego that is sorely, sorely confused about the `facts.' But ahhh, that's science for you. And a bit of religion too, yet only the cult of personality, anathema to the current needs of Humanity and Mother Earth.

Namaskar
 
Andrew,

I agree that there are people out there who think that Theosophy is a mish-mash of various ideas from different ideas. It's as if someone took the best ideas from Christianity, Buddhism, Hinduism, etc., and compiled all of them into a new philosophy.

This is not what Theosophy is. Theosophy is a specific set of religious and philosophical teachings, organized in a specific way. There is nothing syncretic or mish-mash about it.
 
Andrew,

I agree that there are people out there who think that Theosophy is a mish-mash of various ideas from different ideas. It's as if someone took the best ideas from Christianity, Buddhism, Hinduism, etc., and compiled all of them into a new philosophy.

This is not what Theosophy is. Theosophy is a specific set of religious and philosophical teachings, organized in a specific way. There is nothing syncretic or mish-mash about it.

It's precisely because of what you point out in your second sentence that I DO like Theosophy so much:

"It's as if someone took the best ideas from Christianity, Buddhism, Hinduism, etc., and compiled all of them into a new philosophy."

Once folks (some do, some will) can see, can understand, and have their *own evidence* that all religions have descended from a common source, they may be less inclined to fight people who pray differently, or more often, or facing a different direction, or whose language affirms ALLAH instead of YAHWEH.

The fact that many Christians, or even Jews cannot even acknowledge that the Muslim is praying to the SAME darn `God' as they are ... using the word Allah from the Arabic word which simply *means* `god' ... goes to show the level of ignorance and of self-absorption which truly governs some people's lives.

I am not immune to, nor have I yet freed myself entirely from such ignorance or egoity. But I'll be darned if I won't spend the rest of this incarnation trying! :)
 
I really see it as many people over time have connected with the one. And during this connection the amazing information. The duration and volume of the connection was dependent on the state of the connection.....when you plug anything into anything you are making a connection, two unconnected items were connected....and whatever connection is made could be weakened....not large enough wire, fiber, bandwidth, or it could be broken, weak, unfocused...whatever...

Which means often the weakest link is that prophet, which received the information and his lack of comprehension, inability of language to describe...it was like the allness was speaking in a foreign language....and our poor interpreter gave us the best of his/her understanding. And then of course there are other things that came into play, like power, greed, agendas, televangelists (it appears of many varieties)

The telephone game on steroids, with all the players, those that can't hear, telling those that can't talk, telling those who want control, telling the class clown, telling the geek, telling the hippy kid....
 
I really see it as many people over time have connected with the one.
So do I. I do not subscribe to the idea of 'progressive revelation' as it is commonly said today. God is no closer to nor further from the first man to walk the earth than from the last. Every connection with the One is what it is.

We are contingent beings, but if we connect to the Absolute, we connect. And what we receive is Absolute, not provisional on our education, intellect, whatever ... in that sense it's 'blinding', 'overwhelming' and all the other superlatives the sages have voiced. Moses apprehended the Dao later than Lao Tzu, but I don't think his is necessarily a 'more complete' or 'more evolved' understanding. Nor do I believe a Christians' understanding of 'The One' is necessarily greater than that which the Native Australian sees in the Dreamtime. I think our view of it as 'primitive' is over-stated. They still have lessons to teach us, even though we've walked on the moon.

Take poetry. There are poems written thousands of years ago that are utterly sublime.

I might have instant GPS location, but I am in awe of the Greek philosopher who worked out the world was round, and its diameter, by sticking two sticks in the sand and measuring the length and angle of shadow!

What does progress is the 'unfolding'. As I understand it, Hindus believe creation began with the Divine 'saying' the first syllable "Aum". Before "Om" was "Shunyākāsha", the emptiness or the void.

Much as Genesis says.

Shunyākāsha ("no sky") is more than 'nothingness', because everything exists in a latent state of potentiality. "Aum" symbolises the emergence of something from nothing. Creatio ex nihilo, as we say. All forms are contained in the Formless. "Aum" is said to be "Adi Anadi", without beginning or end, and embracing all that is. Apeiron, as Anaximander said – The Boundless.

The Jewish Tradition says exactly the same thing. The entire Holy Scripture is contained within the first syllable. The word 'unpacks' the syllable, and on and on. This unpacking continues until the Sacra Doctrina has unpacked itself enough to serve the needs of those to whom it is revealed.

Which means often the weakest link is that prophet...
I tend to regard the prophet as the strongest. But then I believe God chooses His instrument wisely, and tunes him or her accordingly. Jeremiah certainly bemoaned the burden God placed upon him. :mad:

Face to face, the spoken word, anthropology informs us, comprises less than 10% of the dialogue. The body language informs the rest, even though we're largely unaware of it.

It seems to me the ripple is strongest closest to the centre. I would not say the Divine Itself attenuates, but perhaps without that immediate oral instruction, there is a huge loss of data if we rely solely upon the transcript.

And, of course, to repeat, I believe God is wiser than us in His choices.

... his lack of comprehension, inability of language to describe...
Again, really if that happens, technically it would be God's fault for picking a poor receptor. And again, I think He's got the measure of that!

And then of course there are other things that came into play, like power, greed, agendas, televangelists (it appears of many varieties)
Well I have a more optimistic outlook on human nature than you, it seems. I also think some events in one's life are so big that personal agendas are rendered insignificant. Metanoia – change of heart; Kenosis – self-emptying; Faith – trust in the Other ... all that good stuff.

If I were to wax lyrical, I'd say we lack the fire of the first Christians because we cannot experience Christ in the flesh as they did. Nothing intellectual about it, it's a physical thing. And yet there were those who met Him who didn't see a thing. So it depends on the heart, I suppose. Is it open to the possibility?

Like Buddha, or Christ, both are more to their believers than Scripture can ever say ...

It's like when you fall in love ... you don't just do it in your mind.
 
I think we are on the same wavelength.... But I don't believe G!d chooses receptors....the universe is broadcasting 24/7 few have taken the time to listen.

It is all about the connection....all about preparing the vessel....clean wineskins and all that...

But once the info is received.....Holy Hell, how can I tell anyone what I just received when I can't hardly understand it myself...much less it was glorious, all encompassing of another dimension...the experiences and understandings in this dimension aren't sufficient for completely understanding that one much less relating it to others....so it all had to be dumbed down for the audience and our abilities...
 
I think we are on the same wavelength.... But I don't believe G!d chooses receptors....the universe is broadcasting 24/7 few have taken the time to listen.
Maybe that's the same thing?

But once the info is received.....Holy Hell, how can I tell anyone what I just received when I can't hardly understand it myself...much less it was glorious, all encompassing of another dimension...the experiences and understandings in this dimension aren't sufficient for completely understanding that one much less relating it to others....so it all had to be dumbed down for the audience and our abilities...
Well ... the point is ... maybe that's you. :eek: That doesn't necessarily apply to everybody. That's my point about God maybe upping the amperage just a tad to those who happened to be able to manage it, and are in the right place, at the right time ...

I mean ... I can't explain Time or Quantum Physics, but if I follow you, aren't I saying if I can't, no-one can?
 
No most of science is incremental....standing on the shoulders of the last thought...

If they get something really off the wall they spend forever working backwards on the math to prove it...or so it appears. Some folks had insights that were well beyond our thinking....Tesla for instance....some of what they thought were crackpot meanderings they are starting to get an idea they may not be...

Hence the hindsight and looking back at various traditions....there is the coincidence, correlation and causation contemplations.... are we seeing connections because they are there, or because we are looking?
 
No most of science is incremental....
I don't see how any of this is relevant to the point. I'm not talking about scientific methodology, I thought we were talking about Revelation.

You haven't really addressed my point that the point you're making is a subjective one, and therefore doesn't really tell us anything.

I mean, I can't get my head around algebra, but that doesn't lead me to say no-one can.
 
Exactly Thomas.... You brought up science... I rejected the analogy.

I'm not saying nobody can do it. I am saying they aren't selected (G!d doesn't do, G!d is) G!d can only do for us what G!d can do thru us.... What I have done you can do and greater than these you can do for I go to the father...

We all can access the allness.... should we decide to discipline ourselves... (by the method/path we choose) we might be fasting right now for Ramadan and praying 5 times a day, or whirling with the dervishes or following the traditions of the RCC...
 
I'm not saying nobody can do it.
But do you accept it can be done?

I am saying they aren't selected
Well that may be your opinion, but in the Holy Scriptures the prophets say they are.

(G!d doesn't do, G!d is)
His 'is-ness', is dynamic. If it wasn't, there wouldn't be a creation.

G!d can only do for us what G!d can do thru us.... What I have done you can do and greater than these you can do for I go to the father...
You mean we can do bigger things than Jesus? Is that a Unity doctrine?

Mary said: "My soul doth magnify the Lord" (Luke 1:46). But it's the Lord who shines through her soul. No Lord, no Light. No Lord, no Doing.

Nor does it mean that God is brighter or bigger or greater because of anything we do. As you say, God just 'is-ness' unqualified.

Indeed He can work great deeds through us if we only will allow ... but to think it's us doing them, or we can do more than He can do is, I suggest, pride talking?

We all can access the allness....
Yes, but that's not the point. The point is, we don't. So every now and then, God decides to give us a nudge in the right direction.

should we decide to discipline ourselves... (by the method/path we choose) we might be fasting right now for Ramadan and praying 5 times a day, or whirling with the dervishes or following the traditions of the RCC...
I think we're discussing different things?

I'm talking about Revelation, I think you're talking about rewards.

We are of course rewarded for our efforts (although we might never see nor know quite how), so I would have to say that's a statement of hope and faith. But that if we do enough 'X' we get a particular reward, then no, I don't think that's the case.

Meditation, for example, not matter how studiously followed, does not guarantee Enlightenment.

But I think my main point is: If we can't trust in the word of Scripture (in the spirit of the letter) ... then who do we trust?
 
Nope not talking about rewards... and not really what is revealed to us... but what we reveal... I believe it is all there....and of course 'no lord, no doing, no shining' you gotta have a modem... but it doesn't have to be called Jesus, there are other varieties of access to the allness, other modems, our christian variety is putting the mind of Christ in our mind... For Jews Moses is enough, for Hindus Krishna, ...and on...

Again, I don't see G!d nudging.... G!d as principle is always nudging... Like gravity, gravity is...always...nudging....the sun is....always...shining....if it isn't it isn't the Son.

Unity Doctrine? I know of no doctrine... from wiki
Unity describes itself as a worldwide Christian organization which teaches a positive approach to life, seeking to accept the good in all people and events. Unity began as a healing ministry and healing has continued to be its main emphasis for over 100 years.[3] It teaches that all people can improve the quality of their lives through thought.[4]
Unity describes itself as having no particular creed, no set dogma, and no required ritual.[5] It maintains that there is good in every approach to God and in every religion that is filling someone's needs.[6] Its position holds that one should not focus on past sins but on the potential good in all.[7]
Unity emphasizes spiritual healing, prosperity and practical Christianity in its teachings. Illness is considered to be curable by spiritual means, but Unity does not reject or resist medical treatments.[2] It is an inclusive faith that welcomes diversity of belief. Unity is accepting of the beliefs of others.[8][9][10][11]
Churches fall under the auspices of Unity Worldwide Ministries although each church is autonomous in its practices.
 
In a remarkable development, many Christians and Jews began to rethink, reinterpret and in some cases, repackage their own traditions in light of what they learned from Hinduism and Buddhism. Thomas Merton led the way in the 1960s, and Father Thomas Keating took it a giant step further when, prompted by the popularity of Eastern meditation, he and some fellow Trappists made contemplative practice accessible to laypeople by developing Centering Prayer. The same can be seen in the revival of Jewish mysticism.

All of this signals a revolution in Western religion. Data show that more Americans now see personal communion with the divine as more important than belief in a doctrine or allegiance to a religious institution or tradition. More and more agree that there are numerous ways to conceive of God and relate to the Sacred. The majority now feel that each individual should be free to find his or her own spiritual path and that no religion is the One True Way. These trends can be traced directly to Americans’ access to ideas and practices born centuries ago in India.
We Turn to India | Unity
 
but what we reveal... I believe it is all there....and of course 'no lord, no doing, no shining' you gotta have a modem... but it doesn't have to be called Jesus, there are other varieties of access to the allness, other modems, our christian variety is putting the mind of Christ in our mind... For Jews Moses is enough, for Hindus Krishna, ...and on...
OK. But the point is, your 'Christian variety', and presumably other varieties, works by cherry-picking the world's sacra doctrina and spinning any definition you like.

Unity Doctrine? I know of no doctrine... from wiki
Oh, c'mon! That old cop-out! :eek: So Unity believe's in nothing then? It's got nothing to say. if you've got no doctrine, all you can say is 'yeah, whatever ...'

As Chesterton said, there are two types of people in the world, those who have a creed, and those who don't know they have a creed.

By the way – the citation then goes on to list its doctrines! Go figure :D
 
In a remarkable development, many Christians and Jews began to rethink, reinterpret and in some cases, repackage their own traditions in light of what they learned from Hinduism and Buddhism.
Seems they never grokked it in the first place, then! ;) No religion needs another to correct or augment or explain it ... that way confusion lies.

Thomas Merton led the way in the 1960s, and Father Thomas Keating took it a giant step further when, prompted by the popularity of Eastern meditation, he and some fellow Trappists made contemplative practice accessible to laypeople by developing Centering Prayer. The same can be seen in the revival of Jewish mysticism.
OK. But they haven't departed from orthodoxy have they? They wouldn't endorse your interpretation of Scripture any more than I.

All of this signals a revolution in Western religion.
Yep. The ascendency of the Individual Ego.

Data show that more Americans now see personal communion with the divine as more important than belief in a doctrine or allegiance to a religious institution or tradition. More and more agree that there are numerous ways to conceive of God and relate to the Sacred. The majority now feel that each individual should be free to find his or her own spiritual path and that no religion is the One True Way. These trends can be traced directly to Americans’ access to ideas and practices born centuries ago in India.
Not really, they owe more to western consumer culture. They treat all religions as something they can browse, and cherry-pick. For most people, such 'spiritual paths' is wherever the whim or fancy takes them ... commentators from all Traditions, notably Buddhist, deplore this western approach. David Bentley Hart calls it 'boutique religion'.
 
doesn't all orthodoxy get upset at reform?

Surely this is not a surprise to folks....

The old always fights on its way out when the new arrives...

Discredit, ridicule, ignore....ego is a tough thing....and if it sees it is losing the last ditch effort is an attempt at assimilation....
 
It is a natural part of human nature that religions become ossified and dogmatic as the centuries. This is why new 'saviors' have to come from time to time and start new religions. No religious institution controlled by 'mere mortals' is immune to this.
 
doesn't all orthodoxy get upset at reform?
No. Look at Pope Francis.

The old always fights on its way out when the new arrives...
Discredit, ridicule, ignore....ego is a tough thing....and if it sees it is losing the last ditch effort is an attempt at assimilation....
Well now you're just painting everything with that ol' negative brush of yours ;)

Doesn't apply in the context of this dialogue.
 
negative brush....gad you take everything personally....

Rejection of new ideas is not uncommon...especially when one perceives their safety net might be affected...

The most amazing thing is that my beliefs and opinions (and that is all they are) should not affect yours in the least.

But doesn't apply in the conversation??? When this new syncretic idea is being rejected by you.....oh....ok.
 
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