Paul the 13th? - I Cor. 1:1

Shib,
Getting the message and accepting the message are entirely different issues. The impression is that you believe the latter must inevitably follow the former. This can be the case. It does not have to be.

I get your message. I do. I do not accept your message as a truth. I do not.

A great many (too many!) people believe if one does not accept their message they just have not said it properly yet. It would save the world a lot of angst if people would accept that their delivery is just fine - it is their message that others do not agree with.
 
Devils' Advocate said:
Shib,
Getting the message and accepting the message are entirely different issues. The impression is that you believe the latter must inevitably follow the former. This can be the case. It does not have to be.

I get your message. I do. I do not accept your message as a truth. I do not.

A great many (too many!) people believe if one does not accept their message they just have not said it properly yet. It would save the world a lot of angst if people would accept that their delivery is just fine - it is their message that others do not agree with.
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So whoever Allah wants to guide - He expands his breast to [contain] Islam; and whoever He wants to misguide - He makes his breast tight and constricted as though he were climbing into the sky. Thus does Allah place defilement upon those who do not believe.

Quran 6:125 (further explained in Hadith)
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It seems as though what you said is explained in this verse. You are not ready to accept the message, or your test does not contain this path. As stated in the Surah 5:48
And We have revealed to you, [O Muhammad], the Book in truth, confirming that which preceded it of the Scripture and as a criterion over it. So judge between them by what Allah has revealed and do not follow their inclinations away from what has come to you of the truth. To each of you We prescribed a law and a method. Had Allah willed, He would have made you one nation [united in religion], but [He intended] to test you in what He has given you; so race to [all that is] good. To Allah is your return all together, and He will [then] inform you concerning that over which you used to differ.
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Although after reading your introduction DA, I'm not sure you are on a path of which he spoke was ok :p. Hopefully it is a given that this is just my opinion, with my religious doctrine. I still wish the best, and InshAllah all will know the truth one day, whether that's the truth I know or otherwise
 
BigJoeNobody said:
I still wish the best, and InshAllah all will know the truth one day, whether that's the truth I know or otherwise
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all will know the truth one day, whether that's the truth I know or otherwise


all will know the truth one day, whether that's the truth I know or otherwise


interesting contemplation and affirmation...
 
Although after reading your introduction DA, I'm not sure you are on a path of which he spoke was ok. BigJoe

I have no clue what that sentence says! lol. In any event, I am cool with anyone believing their way is the only one true way for them. It's when someone starts going on about how their only one true way must be followed by everyone else where I get cranky.
 
Devils' Advocate said:
Although after reading your introduction DA, I'm not sure you are on a path of which he spoke was ok. BigJoe

I have no clue what that sentence says! lol. In any event, I am cool with anyone believing their way is the only one true way for them. It's when someone starts going on about how their only one true way must be followed by everyone else where I get cranky.
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Well you kind of side with them fallen angels, that can't be ok for a Muslims. You heretic you.
 
wil said:
How is that working for you? You convertin folks?

Why the name change? Did you forget your old password?
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No, Judaism is not up for the grabs. It is harder to be a Jew than a Gentile.
 
Devils' Advocate said:
Shib,
Getting the message and accepting the message are entirely different issues. The impression is that you believe the latter must inevitably follow the former. This can be the case. It does not have to be.

I get your message. I do. I do not accept your message as a truth. I do not.

A great many (too many!) people believe if one does not accept their message they just have not said it properly yet. It would save the world a lot of angst if people would accept that their delivery is just fine - it is their message that others do not agree with.
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It is only natural that you do not accept my message as truth. The problem is that you can't refute what I say by feeding back with a different truth.
 
Wil, If he is like most Jews that I have met (LET ME BE CLEAR "THAT I HAVE MET"), he believes that Jews are God's chosen people and the only ones who will be rewaded in heaven. And because of that, most believe they must knock down any options otherwise. My assumption is that they are generally scared of the fact that others could be correct and therefore others will receive the reward above or equal to Jews.

Again, before this becomes a yell fest, again, I am basing this on the 30 or so Jews I have known and talked to regularly in my life. Not saying all Jews feel this way or that it is in any way doctrine based
 
Shibolet said:
The problem is that you can't refute what I say by feeding back with a different truth.
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We can all make up truths that can't be refuted, that doesn't imply there is any value in our truth.

Why do you think everyone is disagreeing with everything you are saying? Is everyone mad here, are you the only sane one?
 
wil said:
depends on the jew and the gentile...

if your intent is not to convert...then why all the rants on Christianity and the new testament?

It ain't your books... why do you care?
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You're right; it ain't my book but it uses a Jew to preach against Judaism which was the Faith of Jesus. This is Replacement Theology and some Jew must stand for his Faith.
 
BigJoeNobody said:
Wil, If he is like most Jews that I have met (LET ME BE CLEAR "THAT I HAVE MET"), he believes that Jews are God's chosen people and the only ones who will be rewaded in heaven. And because of that, most believe they must knock down any options otherwise. My assumption is that they are generally scared of the fact that others could be correct and therefore others will receive the reward above or equal to Jews.

Again, before this becomes a yell fest, again, I am basing this on the 30 or so Jews I have known and talked to regularly in my life. Not saying all Jews feel this way or that it is in any way doctrine based
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As you have said above, your opinion is based on assumptions only. The problem with the Jews you have met is that they don't care to stand for their Faith be it mutilated or not. I do.
 
A Cup Of Tea said:
We can all make up truths that can't be refuted, that doesn't imply there is any value in our truth.

Why do you think everyone is disagreeing with everything you are saying? Is everyone mad here, are you the only sane one?
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My fight is not personal but against the NT policy of Replacement Theology. You guys are simply getting paranoid at getting every thing personal.
 
This concept of replacement theology is new to me. Apparently not to the world though; it has been around a long time.

The issue, from my admittedly limited perspective, is that the Christian Bible includes both the Old Testament (Torah), and the New. Yet the New Testament is the 'true' Christian Bible.

The Muslims did not add to this complication by including the former works in theirs. The Koran stands on its own. As a continuation of the Torah & (NT) Bible. If I have that correct?

If the Christians had started their Holy Book with the New Testament and proposed it as a continuation of the Torah, but not a replacement, I wonder if many of these problems between Jews and Christians could have been avoided.

The point is moot of course, cause that is not what happened. As a point for discussion though, if the New Testament had been a stand alone book, do you think the schism between Jews and Christians would be so great?
 
I believe it would be greater DA....

As it is, most fundie Christians are more attached to the OT than the NT.

They preach the teachings of Moses and the life of Jesus...

Seems it should be the other way around...

But without that OT...they'd be lost.
 
Shibolet said:
My fight is not personal but against the NT policy of Replacement Theology. You guys are simply getting paranoid at getting every thing personal.
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Nothing I said had anything to do with me as a person, I was asking if the fact that the majority is unmoved by your logic and reasoning had any affect on you.

DA, wil, but originally Christianity was built on both. If you want to take the OT out now and make something new that would be one way, but originally the religion worked because it had both, the NT was understood in the context of the old and I guess the old was reread in the context of the new.
 
Devils' Advocate said:
This concept of replacement theology is new to me. Apparently not to the world though; it has been around a long time.
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Sure has.

Devils' Advocate said:
The issue, from my admittedly limited perspective, is that the Christian Bible includes both the Old Testament (Torah), and the New. Yet the New Testament is the 'true' Christian Bible.
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Well that's not quite right, but there are many Christians who see the New Testament as 'trumping' the old, which is the wrong way of looking, in my book.

The relation of NT to OT is there in Matthew and in Hebrews and in Paul.

Paul, as a Christian, showed more leniency to the Jews than Saul the Jew showed the Christians, but that's unfair, because after his conversion he saw Christianity is a new light.

Devils' Advocate said:
The Muslims did not add to this complication by including the former works in theirs. The Koran stands on its own. As a continuation of the Torah & (NT) Bible. If I have that correct?
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The Koran stands on its own, but there are dogmatic commentaries on the errors of the Jews and the Christians. The Koran 'seals' the Bible, I think I can say without risk of offence.

Devils' Advocate said:
If the Christians had started their Holy Book with the New Testament and proposed it as a continuation of the Torah, but not a replacement, I wonder if many of these problems between Jews and Christians could have been avoided.
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I think that's just what they did. The Early Christians who were Jewish converts saw no contradiction in their new faith. They didn't see a 'replacement theology'.

But then the hard liners stepped up, and there was conflict.

Devils' Advocate said:
The point is moot of course, cause that is not what happened.
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Quite.

Devils' Advocate said:
As a point for discussion though, if the New Testament had been a stand alone book, do you think the schism between Jews and Christians would be so great?
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Yeah, I think so. Christ was a Jew teaching a 'reformed Judaism'. Conflict was always gonna happen.
 
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