Rogue genes

Thomas

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I woke up this morning wondering what rogue gene is it in me that spurs me to the time-wasting exercise of of trying to reason with the unreasonable.

I put it down to my Gaelic genes ... we love nothing more than the challenge of the impossible! :D
 
My wife and friends all say I have the same gene... Although I will try to reason with the reasonable and unreasonable. Or as they put it, Argue with anyone over anything.
 
Oh, don't get us wrong ... BigJoeNobody and I understand, we know what we're up against, but that never put a Gael off!

It's just we don't accept that some people refuse to understand, so we just keep chippin' away at the walls.
 
Personally I stick with Wrangler genes and avoid the problem all-together. ;)

Okay, okay, not so helpful. It is my perception that when one holds a 'Truth' as inviolate, it is very difficult for them to stand by and watch what they know to be Truth to be trampled upon.

The rub is that for one to hold that their Truth is the only Truth, they must be able to back up their Truth with evidence. In theology there is no evidence. No matter how strongly a person believes they are in the right, in the end their only evidence is the evidence they themselves perceive.

One can attempt to share that evidence with others. But the evidence they perceive is just as good as yours. Even if it isn't! Why? Because it is theirs.

Gentlemen, you are tilting at windmills. To share your Truth is great. To think you are using reason is fantasy.

Personally I see this much the way I see the giving of advice. I don't offer it unless I am asked. If asked I will offer what wisdom I can. And then I let it go. If they follow my advice or spurn it is of no consequence to me. For in the end it is my POV. Nothing more. Nothing less.
 
Personally I stick with Wrangler genes and avoid the problem all-together. ;)

Okay, okay, not so helpful. It is my perception that when one holds a 'Truth' as inviolate, it is very difficult for them to stand by and watch what they know to be Truth to be trampled upon.

The rub is that for one to hold that their Truth is the only Truth, they must be able to back up their Truth with evidence. In theology there is no evidence. No matter how strongly a person believes they are in the right, in the end their only evidence is the evidence they themselves perceive.

One can attempt to share that evidence with others. But the evidence they perceive is just as good as yours. Even if it isn't! Why? Because it is theirs.

Gentlemen, you are tilting at windmills. To share your Truth is great. To think you are using reason is fantasy.

Personally I see this much the way I see the giving of advice. I don't offer it unless I am asked. If asked I will offer what wisdom I can. And then I let it go. If they follow my advice or spurn it is of no consequence to me. For in the end it is my POV. Nothing more. Nothing less.
Everyone has a POV. It is a forum, and regardless of disconnect everyone has a say in what they want to say. You can argue day and night (several recent examples in te belief and spirituality section) but in the end, it's all just words until someone thinks about it. Could I sit here and debate you over your belief (or what i perceive is your belief), absolutly. I'm not going to, at least not now. But if I disagree with something you say, especially if it is against my religion, I will say something. Nothing personal. Just wanting you to receive some understanding on a topic that I am sure about, as I try to veer away from discussions I am not sure about.

as for your statement that there is no evidence that is universal, or that using reason in religion is fantasy, I'll have to disagree with you on the grounds that I believe it is entirely possible. There is definately Universal evidence of a "possible" God (Diety). And reasoning and logic are big tools in doing that.

In the end it is up to the receiver of the information as to what to do with it. Or to walk away and stop the argument.
 
t is my perception that when one holds a 'Truth' as inviolate, it is very difficult for them to stand by and watch what they know to be Truth to be trampled upon.
Frankly, I don't think we get that far.

I have quoted Ricoeur before, and will do so again:
"... (but) philosophy is not simply critical, it too belongs to the order of conviction. And religious conviction itself possesses an internal, critical dimension." (Paul Ricoeur, Critique and Conviction, "Biblical readings and Meditations", Polity Press, 1989. p139)

I am not trying to convince anyone to be Catholic. Or that only Catholicism is right. I am not here to preach or convert. I do not even really discuss my own theological musings.

But I do challenge the commonly held idea that religion, and especially Catholicism, does not possess a critical dimension, when it's evident that those who make such idiotic declarations show no critical insight whatsoever!

All I do is defend orthodox doctrine from distortion or misrepresentation, and argue that it is reasonable, rational and logical.

I cannot for example, convince you of the Trinity. But I can argue, reasonably, rationally and logically, how the doctrine is derived from Scripture, and how it was not something dreamt up out of nowhere in the 4th century.

And I will point out when someone states what they think the Trinity is, or what it isn't, when they clearly have no idea what the doctrine actually says.

Everyone is entitled to opinion, but no-one is entitled to pass off their opinions as the content of someone else's faith.

Religious conviction is like love, it's not (or rather, only very rarely) arrived at through a process of reason, logic, etc.

(And, of course, I challenge the great panjandrums who pitch up here periodically to inform us all that they are IT and offer their pompous-ass commentaries on the world's great Religious Traditions.)

The rub is that for one to hold that their Truth is the only Truth, they must be able to back up their Truth with evidence.
Well, with a reasoned argument. Truth is reasonable, rational, logical ... or we're all wasting our time.

In theology there is no evidence.
Oh, I think there is. When someone says the Doctrine of the Trinity was invented in the 4th century, when we have documentary evidence from the 2nd, then there is evidence.

One can attempt to share that evidence with others. But the evidence they perceive is just as good as yours. Even if it isn't! Why? Because it is theirs.
Ah. Here we need to look at evidence, and interpretation.

Again, one has to accept every viable point of view. But when someone says, it is this way and this way only, then again, that's not reason nor theology, that's ideology. John Shelby Spong has famously made a fortune out of just that. Sadly, the church that he has shaped is dying on its feet faster than any Christian denomination in the US ... there's more to religion than fashion.

Gentlemen, you are tilting at windmills. To share your Truth is great. To think you are using reason is fantasy.
Oh, I can't agree with that. Test the reasoning of Paul Ricoeur or Bernard Lonnergan. Read Aquinas, a master of the reasoned argument.

Better yet, watch Denys Turner and explain what he's saying to me, please? :eek:
 
DA, I don't think you have a very clear picture of what theology is, when people use it the way you use it they always seem to compare theology to natural science. But they are not the same and come to different concussions through different means.

I'm not asking you to start studying it but let's consider those creationists that never had reason or opportunity to study natural science. They make erroneous statements on scientific findings and the nature of science because they they don't understand it.

I don't think we are required to have opinions on all things, and we should refrain from having opinions on things we have no reason to understand.
 
DA, I don't think you have a very clear picture of what theology is, when people use it the way you use it they always seem to compare theology to natural science...
Let's be clear here – 'creationism' is a right-wing American invention and nothing to do with theology as a field of study. It was a marketing idea dreamed up by a political think-tank. 'Intelligent design' was another of their inventions.

The issue is marketing. It seems to me even US universities with good reputations (in the US) will endorse someone if they write a best-seller and thus win media exposure and thereby money for the university. So in the field of theology you get increasingly 'out there' and sensationalist books because serious scholarly studies do not make the New York Times best-sellers list, they're just too dry, too hard to read unless you're into the subject.
 
Let's be clear here – 'creationism' is a right-wing American invention and nothing to do with theology as a field of study. It was a marketing idea dreamed up by a political think-tank. 'Intelligent design' was another of their inventions.

The issue is marketing. It seems to me even US universities with good reputations (in the US) will endorse someone if they write a best-seller and thus win media exposure and thereby money for the university. So in the field of theology you get increasingly 'out there' and sensationalist books because serious scholarly studies do not make the New York Times best-sellers list, they're just too dry, too hard to read unless you're into the subject.
Have you ever heard a comparison from Yusuf Estes about the similarities amongst the Abrahamic Faiths. It is Fascinating, but only to those who really want a scholarly look into things. Very dry and loses an audience fast. I know he has written some books, but I've never read them. And I'm sure they aren't on a best sellers list. While Zakir Naik (a very popular talker amongst many religious groups) is getting top sellers simply with extravagant claims of questionable links in the texts (of which I must agree, I've never seen anyone who knows the text of the Quran, Bible (RSV, KJV, NIV, and supposedly the greek texts although his answers don't support it), and the Hindu texts (specifically the Veda)).
 
DA, I don't think you have a very clear picture of what theology is, when people use it the way you use it they always seem to compare theology to natural science. But they are not the same and come to different concussions through different means. Tea.

Not sure where you got the idea that I was comparing theology to the natural sciences. I believe I have a clear picture of theology, though admittedly it is not very likely your picture of theology.

That is kinda the point I am making though. Theology is in the eye of the beholder. Truth is ephemeral. The reasonable, rational, logical argument of truth (with a nod to Thomas here) is also in the eye of the beholder. Hell, the definitions of the words we use to make our arguments - the words themselves are not even fixed, but rather a floating library of individual interpretations. That we are capable of communicating at all is miraculous to me.

Is it all a waste of time? Depends on what one feels is a waste of time. We can share viewpoints, certainly. Beyond that do we accomplish anything? This is not the first theological forum I have been on. And in all the reading, and all the posting, I cannot remember a single time when someone changed their theological view because of what another person said.

Of the people I know who have changed their theological view; switching religions for example, it was the commentary in their heads that caused the action. Not the words of others.

For what it is worth, I am dissatisfied with this post. I am not making my point anywhere as clearly as I would like. Unfortunately life intrudes so I will have to let do with what is here.
 
the study of religions or G!d?

Hell no....

It is the study of a limited number of perspectives on various religions and society.
 
I am, but I'm no theologian. Theology is, as I understand it, an academic pursuit in that it takes research and critical thinking. What we do here is as much theology as political science is going to a political forum and stating what we thought of the last election. 95% of what we do here is opinion, as you defined the whole of theology.
 
I am, but I'm no theologian. Theology is, as I understand it, an academic pursuit in that it takes research and critical thinking. What we do here is as much theology as political science is going to a political forum and stating what we thought of the last election. 95% of what we do here is opinion, as you defined the whole of theology.

Theology is no different than any other philosophy. It the study of a specific theory and complimentary ideas. It should be used to shake things up, encourage growth, and find better ways to view things -in my opinion --- as long as things don't get shaken so much that we end up with whiplash, then it's good.
 
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