Explanation of paradigm differences

Wow, I just have to jump in here. Completely off topic.
Thomas just finished a rant, a classic anti-what-wil-is-saying-rant. Then wil...corrects someone else!?
I've been here a couple of years now, that seems....rare? Wil, seriously, how much self-control did that take? Did Thomas hack your account? Have you put Thomas on the ignore list at last? It might seem like a small thing but I'm actually in a little bit of a shock.
 
meh...we have differences of opinion, differences of belief...all well and good.. but facts are just what they are. Thomas doesn't like my ways...I am aware of that.
 
I'd also like to share my own perspective.
I came here to learn about religion. I hadn't had much experience with it and it was unrelatable to me. I was very suspicious about the traditions because I think they had systems for something that seemed completely nebulous. For me it could have been complete bullshit or really insightful. It took me a good long time but just recently I realised that I sort of 'get' traditions, I completely see what Thomas is saying up there. I don't share or even have an opinion on everything he talked about, but I think that his reasoning is completely valid.

Funny enough, it's the wil-position I'm having a hard time to understand. I haven't gotten anywhere on that one. I don't really know why. Perhaps I haven't focused on it much? Perhaps the position has way to many positions to grok. It's what I'm going to work on now. I'm a bit worried that I won't be able to get that position now. That my mind is wired for the traditional path, or that it got wired that way when I listened to Thomas all these years...

Still going to try! I have a while before I have to leave this place.
 
The 'wil' position? Often it is reclining on the couch.. although yesterday it was in the yard attempting to juggle three cups of beer...(lie, I was using water as a fill in until i get it...perfect spiritual practice for a hot and humid day)
 
Wil sits without an edit button on that line between east and west... or any line will do... draw the line and I will tap dance over it.
 
Thomas just finished a rant, a classic anti-what-wil-is-saying-rant.
Heck, was that a 'rant'? I thought I was being quite measured.

Let me recapitulate:
The article Senthil links to proposes two distinct paradigms, one an open system, one a closed system.

It's description of the Indic system is:
"At the heart of the Indic source code are the Vedas, which immediately establish the primacy of inquiry in Indic thought. In the Rig Veda, the oldest of all Hindu texts (and possibly the oldest of all spiritual texts on the planet), God, or Prajapati, is summarized as one big mysterious question and we the people are basically invited to answer it."

It's description of the Abrahamic system is:
"... the god of the Old Testament ... shouting command(ment)s"

Which I think is a pretty pig-ignorant summation of the Bible, if you'll excuse me for saying so.

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And anti-Wil? Not really. It was a comment on DA's 'two types of path'.

What the Traditional paradigms do not allow is personalist ideologies, the contemporary 'Philosophy of Relativism' that posits individual narrative as superior to objective truth. Wil champions that perspective, so yeah, we clash ...

This is where the Traditions will always have a telling (it seems to me) advantage. The long view. They step back and look at the nature of human activity, whereas the contemporary tends to the short view, it judges everything from 'where I'm at', and selects what it will from the smorgasbord available, without looking too closely at what's on offer or where it came from.

I cannot help but see its choices based on appearance rather than essence. And we're back in the Garden, looking at the fruit on the tree ...

That's what Tradition transmits: Timeless wisdom. Timeless because we face the same questions, the same choices. It's the Perennial Wisdom because the Traditions offer an informed commentary on the Perennial Questions. Buddha nailed suffering for the non-theist. The Book of Job nailed it for the theist. But both views are so at odds with the current age, which thinks suffering is the privation of what I want. The denial of my right to have what I want on my terms. This is the consumer age, and L'Oreal have summed it up in a nutshell: 'Because you're worth it', which is precisely what the serpent whispered in Eve's ear.

The 'branch paths' of this age will in time go out of fashion, because they are the products of fashion. They are the products of Tradition seen through the lens of ephemeral cultural ideologies. What will be left are the Traditions, the tried and tested ways.
 
There is also the factor of degree (way?) of understanding. The casual bystander, the interdisciplinary scholar, the practitioner, and the practitioner/scholar will all have different understandings (in both directions). So when we read, as Thomas alluded, first we need to answer, "Who's doing the presenting?"
 
Thomas,
I thought is was rantlike, measured yes, but still the things you always object to here.
And not anti-wil, anti-what-wil-says. Not that it was directed at wil but that it was something I expected wil to jump on.
I don't think I said anything negative here, against any party.
 
Gotcha. My training. Thesis – antithesis – reasoning.
 
LOL. Thomas stuffs his knuckles in his mouth ...
need mustard?

the leaf floats from one group to the next.... flys into the air... and rests on the ground... only to dance again.... but neither the other leaves nor the wind change the leaf.... the leaf simply enjoys them all...
 
I'm learnin from you Thomas.... the stronger the wind, the bigger the adventure...plus someone caused a neurotic tendril to grow, reach out and connect .... a single impulse jumped the synapse and broke a dam, tis like a frozen river thawing and a debacle of bliss has been flowing ... luckily I had a surfboard...
 
LOL. Well, if you're open to comments ...

If we were playing Top Trumps I'd say: It's time to stop being the leaf and be the wind, stop surfing and be the wave. :cool:

But to be serious ...

The phrase 'a debacle of bliss' says a lot of things to me.

In terms of paradigm, I rather think you're more Buddhist than Christian. It seems to me you conceptualise Christianity within a Buddhist context – as a philosophical system, stripped of all that mystical 'hyperbole'. You use the term 'bliss' a lot, and if you were not more constant, I'd wonder if you were bipolar! :eek:.

But 'bliss' is not part of the Christian lexicon. I've checked the translation dictionaries on blueletterbible.org, and bliss occurs nowhere in the common translations of the Bible.

The near equivalent term is 'peace', but that's used in a two-fold context, the first is the general sense, which I think corresponds to the order of bliss as you present it to me. The specifically Christian idea is thoroughly mystical and rooted in the Trinity, and as such it's something you tend to view as metaphor or hyperbole, rather than an actuality.

From the Buddhist pov, check out Matthieu Ricard's 20 minute TED lecture on happiness. He actually mentions waves/surfing around 6.30!

Again, and here I'm on unsteady ground using a Buddhist term, but I'd say look to the Middle Way. The true way is not marked by extremes, neither of sorrow nor of bliss. Ricard's call for people to practice meditation, which he calls 'mind training', is actually to master ourselves, rather than ourselves being mastered by our passions. Only then can one experience and appreciate wellbeing.

When talking of that which upsets our self-mastery I am on firmer ground discussing the 'passions', a term from the Greek that was adopted by the Christian philosophical lexicon. Especially the lyre, which Plato considered the only instrument worth listening to, and it was taught in his academy. The idea again is balance and harmony, again we have the Middle Way, not this, not that – no strident chords, nor discords – but a kind of ambience.

When you say 'debacle of bliss' it recalls for me the distinction between the eros of the Greek Mysteries, and the agape of the Christian Mysteries. Eros in that sense is when the senses are 'overthrown' or 'possessed' by that which moves them, the kind of thing you describe. The Greek Mysteries were spoken of as a kind of intoxication, the overpowering of reason by a 'divine madness' that carries man away from his finite existence and overwhelms him with supreme happiness.

Christian agape is, by contrast, underwhelming. It's not a flooding of the sensorium, it's not an exstasy. Rather it's a kenosis, a self-emptying, a going-out rather than a flooding-in. It's not an experience, it's not experiential. I rather think the bliss that the Buddhists speak of is actually closer to this idea than the contemporary assumptions of 'what it must be like' to be enlightened. I think we make a lot more of bliss than those we assume have attained it – again, a result of consumer culture conditioning. Same with 'Love'. Culture speaks of erotic love, the love that satiates the senses, I love X because X makes me feel good. It's lust, really. That's why the term is balanced by such concepts as 'agape' and 'caritas'. True love is not how I feel, true love is care for how the other feels.

Lastly, both paradigms, Buddhist and Christian, are wary of 'experience', especially the 'sensations of the senses'. Good grief, look at the hoops we make mystics and visionaries jump through! When I was doing my meditation training, we were taught to ignore all 'sensations' that came while sitting. It's the ego, we were told, it's playing tricks on you.

Matthieu Ricard, at the end of that TED talk, speaks of nothing disturbing the mind, neither good thoughts nor bad. It's not, as so many suppose, the misapprehension of the 'empty mind' of Zen, it's simply that, in Ricard's words, thoughts pass across the face of the mind like birds across the sky ... we don't attach to them, we just let them go ...

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All this is not to say I'm down on bliss or well-being, far from it.

I know and enjoy such moments. One of the reasons I stay here is often I'm sent off hunting through my resources to find the answer to a question. I was checking out Ricard on bliss when I came across a commentary of his on reincarnation:
First of all, it's important to understand that what's called reincarnation in Buddhism has nothing to do with the transmigration of some ‟entity” like an autonomous "self". It's not a process of metempsychosis. As long as one thinks in terms of entities rather than function and continuity of experience, it's impossible to understand the Buddhist concept of rebirth. As it's said, ‟There is no thread passing through the beads of the necklace of rebirths.” Over successive rebirths, what is maintained is not the identity of a ‟person,” but the conditioning of a stream of consciousness. (to be continued)
And that filled me with delight, nay, dare I say bliss. Just as I have come to understand, and have argued here often, here Ricard is addressing the exact same error of comprehension. In the West, reincarnation is assumed to mean 'I get another go', and that's so not what the paradigm teaches.

Signing off now, for a little dance around the room ...
 
A little dance around the room is always appropriate! I've decided for 'Father's Day' I am going to goto a local Unitarian Universalist Church...that always comes up at the top (that or liberal quaker, buddhism does come up near the top as well).. (Father's Day, do you guys do that? This father would rather be out camping at a burn, but duty...my mother, sister, kids (22 year olds) would rather I stay home, go to church and dinner with them and celebrate thi hallmarkish of holidays)...so on the day purportedly dedicated to 'me' I quell my desires to support theirs (or what they feel they should be doing by modern convention...tradition....humbug)

Bahai resonates with me....but for some of their traditions/dogma that stretches my logic to far (but we all know I have issues along those lines) But Sufi dancing, Dances of Universal Peace...chants and movements honoring all religious traditions...if anything outside instigates bliss it is usually that.

Bliss is a word. a word I've used for a feeling, but frankly can't recall looking up in decades.
noun
1.supreme happiness; utter joy or contentment:
wedded bliss.
2.Theology. the joy of heaven.
3.heaven; paradise: the road to eternal bliss.
4.Archaic. a cause of great joy or happiness.
I think the word contentment may describe my feeling best...joy and happiness relate a giddiness that I am not speaking of....funny that while you say it isn't biblical, isn't Christian, every dictionary I looked in included a 'heavenly aspect'... the bliss/contentment I am describing is back to that anthropomorphism that I relate to the most...the comfort of cuddling in a grandmothers lap, snuggling into her bosum, wrapped in the arms of a protection that nothing can penetrate... This bliss has most often come over me in the past when I am struggling, when I am at my wits end, when I am in trouble with some situation...and in the trepidation of failure or embarrassment or humiliation...a feeling that everything is in place, that there is nothing to worry about, that all is right in the world despite my errors and foibles and how badly I've screwed up the situation...it was/is often fleeting but afterwords.... I walk into the 'fire' and it all goes away...the barriers drop...the doors of opportunity open...and suddenly for some reason...it is alright, all right...and I am baffled, that the obstacles (monetary, governmental, physical) that were there moments ago are gone....

be the wind...he says...in time maybe... the wind is invisible we can feel it if we are in it...but inside we can only see it through the actions of the leaf... currently I am not the wind, but a (one) visible expression of its force...
 
There's a reasoned physiological reason for why a lost man will, without markers, walk round in circles. There's a spiritual corollary, that the path we choose to walk, without the checks and balances, those elements that render religion 'rigid', tends to end up being one determined by our weaknesses, not by our strengths. We naturally shy away from the uncomfortable.

I agree with this. Where you appear to me to be blind is that the 'rigid' religion is just as capable of preying on our weaknesses as the nonrigid path. Look at all the fundamentalist versions of Christianity in the world today. These are not good paths to religious enlightenment. They are quite the opposite. The checks and balances you admire (as do I) can be perverted into checks and balances that keep people on the wrong religious path.

This is why I perceive your 'type' of religion is not necessarily, by definition, better. Too many examples of this system failing around the world today.

The thing about the Traditions, is their psychologies are quite insightful. They have millennia of experience behind them. They're not the product of the latest sensation. Like prayer or meditation, they're not something that popped fully formed out of the hat, as it were. There are pitfalls.

Again, if they are followed properly. Too many times they are not, and there be pitfalls in that path as well.

When it comes to the question of the spiritual, every long-standing tradition is in agreement: You cannot do it yourself. You cannot be your own spiritual master – that idea is a contemporary concept that plays to consumer culture. Any psychologist will have plenty of evidence to show just how capable we are at kidding ourselves.

Yep. And once again, people kidding themselves is not limited to following one's own path. Organized religions are full of people kidding themselves.

If there are as many flaws in a system as strengths, I find it hard to accept that that system is better than another. I would be interested in your thoughts on what I am saying here, Thomas.
 
Father's Day, do you guys do that?
Yes, we do.

... funny that while you say it isn't biblical, isn't Christian, every dictionary I looked in included a 'heavenly aspect'...
It's non-biblical – bliss doesn't appear in any Bible I checked – but I didn't say it isn't Christian, I said 'peace' is the nearest term.

the bliss/contentment I am describing is back to that anthropomorphism that I relate to the most...
OK. It's a nice image, I like it.

The kind of thing you describe does seem to result from the natural play of human emotions – struggle-bliss – which is kind of what I was hinting at with the Middle Way if, and only if, one was looking at what Buddhism tells us about attachment to experience. I wasn't being serious with the 'bipolar' comment btw, a bipolar disorder is that see-sawing in extremis.

This bliss has most often come over me in the past when I am struggling, when I am at my wits end, when I am in trouble with some situation...and in the trepidation of failure or embarrassment or humiliation...a feeling that everything is in place, that there is nothing to worry about, that all is right in the world despite my errors and foibles and how badly I've screwed up the situation...it was/is often fleeting but afterwords.... I walk into the 'fire' and it all goes away...the barriers drop...the doors of opportunity open...and suddenly for some reason...it is alright, all right...and I am baffled, that the obstacles (monetary, governmental, physical) that were there moments ago are gone....
Well that's natural, I think many people can relate to that, I can – I've had those times myself.

Maybe your volume's turned up a bit :D but we all react much the same way, it's human nature, after all.
 
I'm not making nothing of it, by the way ... it's a real experience. It's just that maybe I'm a volume turned down kinda guy.
 
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