Jesus died: we're all saved?

Raksha said:
Quahom,

I agree that I shouldn't have posted what I did on the Christianity board. But I think you should understand that it's precisely the belief that "Jesus died: we're all saved" (but ONLY if you believe it) that fundamentalist proselytizers push most aggressively and insist is absolutely essential for salvation. Blayzn Fattyz was doing it with me right before I posted the offending note. They always insist that someday you WILL believe it, no matter how much you insist you won't and can't believe it.

And yet that's the very concept many serious Christians come to question, and that is being called into question on this thread. I haven't heard of anyone leaving the church over "Love thy neighbor as thyself," for example. But they do over this one.

--Linda
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Ms. Linda (if I may call you that), how many lives have you watched fade from eyes?

My point is, we all know the truth, when the life light is leaving us. I don't know what that truth is, except that the reality is "REAL". We see something, before we leave this plane...

To some, it is comforting, yet to others it is frightening. And before people let go, they look at us (the last thing they understand), with a question mark...

I have seen enough dying eyes to know there is something out there that makes people smile in relief, and others cry out in terror.

So...I do not pass judgment on others for their beliefs...it is what sustains them, and makes them rise above themselves...

Isn't that what we are supposed to do in life?

v/r

Q
 
Raksha, you said,

"...fundamentalist proselytizers push most aggressively and insist is absolutely essential for salvation."

--> I believe it is the very nature of fundamentalist proselytizers to be obnoxious.

"They always insist that someday you WILL believe it, no matter how much you insist you won't and can't believe it."

--> But the big difference is that they are closed-minded while we are open-minded. Such a difference can keep us happy while dealing with them.
 
Dogbrain said:
Without the Fall, there would be no Church, no Christianity, since there would be no need for Redemption.
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Many thanks for the reply - does this mean the Orthodox Church as you understand it has a somewhat Universalist approach to Salvation?

The Fall is described as an objective event - it doesn't matter whether you believe it or not, it is described as happening as regardless of belief.

In which case, if the Fall is atoned for by the sacrifice and Resurrection, is this not also an objective event - ie, that the atonement happened successfully, whether you believe it or not?
 
Nick the Pilot said:
Raksha, you said,

"...fundamentalist proselytizers push most aggressively and insist is absolutely essential for salvation."

--> I believe it is the very nature of fundamentalist proselytizers to be obnoxious.

"They always insist that someday you WILL believe it, no matter how much you insist you won't and can't believe it."

--> But the big difference is that they are closed-minded while we are open-minded. Such a difference can keep us happy while dealing with them.
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How ironic...
 
I said:
Many thanks for the reply - does this mean the Orthodox Church as you understand it has a somewhat Universalist approach to Salvation?

The Fall is described as an objective event - it doesn't matter whether you believe it or not, it is described as happening as regardless of belief.

In which case, if the Fall is atoned for by the sacrifice and Resurrection, is this not also an objective event - ie, that the atonement happened successfully, whether you believe it or not?
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I think the point is in order to appreciate a gift, one has to accept that gift.

Kind of like the executioner stating that his intention is to spare the convicted's life, all he has to do is agree to his life being spared (let go of the dead man's switch). But for whatever reason, he never does.

I know, over simplification is something I am tremendously guilty of, but you get the picture.:)
 
Dogbrain said:
Without the Fall, there would be no Church, no Christianity, since there would be no need for Redemption. This is not to say that the Son would not necessarily have taken on a human nature, but to claim that He would or He would not is idle speculation, a matter of opinion and not doctrine, at least as much as I understand such things.
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If man did not fall, then no, there would be no need for salvation, because there would be no sin, therefore, there would be no death. of course, that is not the case. You don't need to say "that is not to say", because that is what already happened, God did walk with Adam and Eve before the fall. There would still be a church, because God would be honored and glorified and sung praises to every day because man would not have fallen, all the world would be one big church which is christianity--having a personal relationship with God. christianity doesnt exist because it is defined by us sinning and being forgiven, christianity exists because before the world was created God knew us and how we would believe, accept, and trust in his every word, and he walked with us, we saw and heard him, we were his disciples, we were his apostles, we were those that he healed, we are today the church that still walks with God and listens to and honors his Son and spreads the gospel throughout all the earth. its not about the label, its about the heart.
 
I said:
Many thanks for the reply - does this mean the Orthodox Church as you understand it has a somewhat Universalist approach to Salvation?

The Fall is described as an objective event - it doesn't matter whether you believe it or not, it is described as happening as regardless of belief.

In which case, if the Fall is atoned for by the sacrifice and Resurrection, is this not also an objective event - ie, that the atonement happened successfully, whether you believe it or not?
Click to expand...

I would agree that the atonement happened successfully, but as I tried to express and Q also said, God made the first move but it is still our choice whether to accept it. If you don't want to be with God, no one is going to make you, and if you want to be with God, there is nothing that can interfere with that.

The key distinction, in the theology of lunamoth anyway, is the element of choice. Even though I lean (heavily) toward the idea that all will end up in God, it seems inappropriate to take that choice away from individuals or from God.

God built the bridge, but no one is going to carry us across it against our will.
 
I said:
In which case, if the Fall is atoned for by the sacrifice and Resurrection, is this not also an objective event - ie, that the atonement happened successfully, whether you believe it or not?
Click to expand...

Yes, it did, but the Atonement opened a door and built a bridge, it did not carry us through and across. It is the individual's decision to walk through that door and cross that bridge. It is the individual's decision to stay in the unredeemed state. If we accept and live accordingly, then, on a constant basis, we are helped along the bridge. But we are free to turn back and return to the life of errors and the way of death.
 
dogbrain said:
Without the Fall, there would be no Church, no Christianity, since there would be no need for Redemption.
Click to expand...
I don't buy it, without Paul there may have been no church, without Jesus there would have been no Christianity. But the Jews do fine with their reading of their texts without the fall.

Linda and Nick, it isn't about agreeing to disagree. Us Christians of our various varieties are those that are the ones that have to agree to disagree. As I see it (and other Christians don't) the understanding of salvation thru Jesus doesn't affect you, but affects those that believe. Now while some of my brethren will do their best to pray for you, and play the old carrot 'what if you're wrong, or you're going to hell unless you believe, that is between you and them whether you decide to take on their energy or not. Me I'm knowing you're stronger than that.
 
Wil, you said,

"As I see it (and other Christians don't) the understanding of salvation thru Jesus doesn't affect you, but affects those that believe."

--> That is a fascinating way of looking at it. In contrast, my belief system say that every devout Christian, Muslim, Hindu, etc., is making progress towards enlightenment. I had not heard the idea that one's understanding of Christian salvation affects one's ability to be saved, nor does one's status as a non-Christian affect it even further.

"Now while some of my brethren will do their best to pray for you, and play the old carrot 'what if you're wrong, or you're going to hell unless you believe, that is between you and them whether you decide to take on their energy or not. Me I'm knowing you're stronger than that."

--> Fortunately, my belief system makes me believe I am headed for enlightenment just as strongly as Christians believe they are headed for a Christian salvation, which gives me the strength to endure people who irritate me in the name of Jesus.
 
Namaste Nick,

I think that is one of the most interesting things...

I believe we have no choice but enlightenment...tis the system. Eventually we all go to source, no matter how many lifetimes it takes. But there is also this thing that nages at me that we are all exactly where we need to be. Our soul is in training here in 3d getting ready for the next phase...and where we are, what we believe, our trials and tribulations, those we come into contact with; are all here to assist us in this process. I'm currently meant to be a liberal Christian, not a Buddhist or a Hindu, and Faithful and Dor are learning and growing thru their ever lovin bible thumpin fundamentalist beliefs, Tao's atheism is what he needs, and on and on...
 
Originally Posted by dogbrain
Without the Fall, there would be no Church, no Christianity, since there would be no need for Redemption.

I totally agree. Without the human fall, there would have been no need for religion. God's plan in Gen 1:28 would have been realized. Adam & Eve would have created the first God's centered family. They whould have been our first True Ancestors.

God's linage would have continue to expand all over the earth. The Kingdom of Heaven on earth would have been established. There would not have been a need for a Messiah or a new sinless Adam

 
Wil,

I like the idea of enlightenment because no one saves us, we save ourselves, which means we take full responsibility for what happens to us.

You said,

"...there is also this thing that nages at me that we are all exactly where we need to be."

--> I agree. This world is a terrible place, but there is no other system that can get us where we need to be.

"Our soul is in training here in 3d getting ready for the next phase..."

--> Yes. This physical world gives a concreteness to our experiences that cannot be achieved in any other way. Once the need for such concrete experiences no longer exists, then we can move on to a more "ephemeral" existence.

"...Faithful and Dor are learning and growing thru their ever lovin bible thumpin fundamentalist beliefs, Tao's atheism is what he needs, and on and on..."

--> I want to commend you for having such an open mind. I think that evangelists are, by definition, closed-minded. It is refreshing to hear open-minded people on this Forum.
 
wil said:
I don't buy it, without Paul there may have been no church, without Jesus there would have been no Christianity. But the Jews do fine with their reading of their texts without the fall.
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Judaism recognizes the Fall. Who has told you that they don't?
 
Nick the Pilot said:
Wil,

I like the idea of enlightenment because no one saves us, we save ourselves, which means we take full responsibility for what happens to us.
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Yeah a local preacher when a homeless man came into her church opened his arms and said, "Sister I'm here to be saved", she replied, "Well you come to the wrong place, around here you have to save yourself." She gave him a job...same preacher was robbed one time long ago...they knew who did it...it was a homeless guy who came in and sat in the back and listened during service...stayed through the food afterword regularly...and one night returned to rob the place. Nothing was said...he quit coming...and then years later, cleaned up and with a job came back and paid it all back....life is good.
Nick the Pilot said:
"...Faithful and Dor are learning and growing thru their ever lovin bible thumpin fundamentalist beliefs, Tao's atheism is what he needs, and on and on..."

--> I want to commend you for having such an open mind. I think that evangelists are, by definition, closed-minded. It is refreshing to hear open-minded people on this Forum.
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I'd like to be clear, I don't know and don't wish to pretend I'm any further along on the path than the fundamentalist. The Dali Lama said you know you are enlightened when everyone you see you see as enlightened. A forum like this shows us how far we have to go.
Dogbrain said:
Judaism recognizes the Fall. Who has told you that they don't?
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Jews. They recognize it as a sin, quite the minor sin, not any huge infraction that will set any soul to an eternity of damnation. Don't eat the apple, akin to telling a child not to eat the red candy... Leave me not in temptation??? Heck they were led into temptation...
 
17th Angel said:
We're all saved? Tell that to the countless victims we see day to day.
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Since when is the Christian idea of salvation a guarantee for success in this life? Have you read the writings of St.Paul or the Acts of the Apostles? Are they what you would consider successful in terms of worldly standards?
Paul is beaten, left for dead and thrown in prison, and he has what he refers to as his thorn in the flesh. John was exiled to Patmos, Stephanus was stoned to death and the other Apostles were persecuted and imprisoned.
The very God of Christianity has a cross for a throne of exaltation, the suffering God who came to serve to the extent that he was obedient to death. His resurrection is a hope for all those that are persecuted for the sake of love and justice, they can identify themselves with God himself.
 
I didn't mention success lol....

I am speaking of INJUSTICE/crime/suffering/pain/greed/War/corruption/illness/death.. You know... I need not name all of them.... All of these things were present in human history before jesus... While he was here... After he was here..... It is a consitant pattern..... You claim these are a success factor?? We live in a "saved" world, where to be successful is determined by by these factors? That is a saved world? Sounds like a load to me.
 
17th Angel said:
I didn't mention success lol....

I am speaking of INJUSTICE/crime/suffering/pain/greed/War/corruption/illness/death.. You know... I need not name all of them.... All of these things were present in human history before jesus... While he was here... After he was here..... It is a consitant pattern..... You claim these are a success factor?? We live in a "saved" world, where to be successful is determined by by these factors? That is a saved world? Sounds like a load to me.
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I never claimed that this was a saved world. I guess you are talking about the idea of universal salvation. Even in the idea of universal salvation, that does not mean that one expects the world to be perfect now. Universal salvation is originally called apokatastasis which means restoration of all things. However, no one claims that this restoration has taken place. Adherents of apokatastasis claims that everyone is a part of that PROMISE.

The idea that Jesus made the world perfect now is not a Christian idea. Nor is heaven as some kind of floaty paradise. The Christian hope is a second creation. When heaven comes down to earth, not the other way around. The resurrected Christ was the first of the second creation, the second Adam. The Christian hope is to be a part of that 2nd creation, an that is accomplished through the Holy spirit one receives through faith in Christ.
Read 1 Corinthians 15. What is now is a seed and through the holy spirit that seed will be transformed through death and believers will get the same glorified resurrection body that Christ had.

What you are knocking down is nothing but a strawman.
 
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