Debate: Is Islam a Threat to the West?

I agree that Etu's comments went beyond the code of conduct. I gave him a chance at first as I hoped he might actually start to listen to what Joe was saying. When he launched back into his hate mongering yesterday he should have been banned right away. That's on me. I didnt read through all the threads last night and have been in a development workshop all of today. I apologize you had to put up with that garbage. I'll remove his mongering statements when I'm back in front of a computer.

Since the definition of interfaith comes up a lot on here, I'd like to submit my own: 'a post so outrageous that members of all beliefs flag the comment for the same reasons'
Eh, living as a Revert Muslim in the US you kinda get used to it. It's sad that when someone brings forth a question and then is told with some level of detail and referencing, that the person cannot even begin accepting it as an honest attempt and further uses instruments of rejection such as "you just lie since you are permitted to do so"
 
IF Islam is not out of date and meets the needs of the world today explain this:

http://www.thewire.com/global/2013/1...-death/355961/ (From Dec 2013)

They are all countries governed by Islam in some major way.
It does appear the spread of Islam over different countries, cultures, and people, along with growing internal conflicts in Islam (such as Ali and Muawiyyah), resulted in a change in interpretation over apostasy (riddah), which the Prophet Muhammad never punished by death. Khaled Abou El Fadl, who teaches Islamic jurisprudence at UCLA, explains it like this: "There is no reliable evidence that the Prophet during his lifetime executed anyone for the crime of apostasy. However, the penalty for apostasy seems to have arisen from a period of time, during the Caliphate of Abu Bakr, when Muslims were engulfed in what was known as the wars of apostasy (hurub al-ridda). Although there was a specific historical context that elicited the emergence of the law of apostasy, the doctrinal support for such a penalty remained flimsy at best." If this is the case the countries you cited are engaged in tahrif, the corruption of meaning.
 
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ok....I was thinking zealot was the wrong word....

are some religionists a threat to their own religion?
haha, oh I know what you mean ... just hinting at the pointing of fingers and inability to see the larger picture ... the 'zealot' is generally the other guy. I could have been jailed and maybe executed back in about 1985 as a 'terrorist'.
 
Or maybe a thread are Religious Zealots a threat to religion?

LOL... a much younger me dancing with Hindu Pandit. Note T-Shirt
zealot.JPG
 
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If you read Quran and Hadith, this is not even a question...

The goal of Islam is that no one but Muslims exist.

Fortunately, we have many Muslims who are reading Rumi and Hafez and the like, beautiful.

Islam itself is a threat to humanity, no matter where you are.
 
I think it is important to note that these "terrorist" groups are using scripture to support their actions.

That means that even if we eradicate violent Islam for a generation or more, there is still material to bring it back...

This is a terrible thing. We need to stop being tolerant of it.
 
Terrorist is in quotes because the simple fact of the matter is this IS Islam, this IS what Muhammad taught...

I love those who are terrible Muslims, that are open to me not being Muslim...

This is not what Muhammad taught, you aren't following your religion...

And I thank you for that.

You are human first, it is good.
 
If you read Quran and Hadith, this is not even a question...

The goal of Islam is that no one but Muslims exist.
Not accurate. The goal of Islam is for individuals to have a chance to achieve Jannah (heaven). From the sound of it, you have never done the first sentence.

Fortunately, we have many Muslims who are reading Rumi and Hafez and the like, beautiful.
Not sure why you feel these two are more beautiful. Maybe if you discuss we can follow.

Islam itself is a threat to humanity, no matter where you are.
Bring forth your proof...
I think it is important to note that these "terrorist" groups are using scripture to support their actions.
They incorrectly and blatantly misuse scripture. They do not follow it, in the least. I can see you joined today, Please do me a favor and read through the comments here and the Islam Forum "What's wrong with Islam" I'm sure you have much to learn.

That means that even if we eradicate violent Islam for a generation or more, there is still material to bring it back...
unfortunately that is true of every view, even Atheistic ones. It is a fallibility of man.

This is a terrible thing. We need to stop being tolerant of it.
Be careful what you wish for 1.6B people unified and integrated around the world might not be a force you want to oppress.

Terrorist is in quotes because the simple fact of the matter is this IS Islam, this IS what Muhammad taught...
It's not and no he didn't.

I love those who are terrible Muslims, that are open to me not being Muslim...

This is not what Muhammad taught, you aren't following your religion...

And I thank you for that.

You are human first, it is good.
again, please read before continuing the last guy got banned for his inability to do so.
 
Not accurate. The goal of Islam is for individuals to have a chance to achieve Jannah (heaven). From the sound of it, you have never done the first sentence.

Jannah can only be the next moment after life... but Muslim doctrine creates a hellish psyche.

Not sure why you feel these two are more beautiful. Maybe if you discuss we can follow.

Sufi's basically are influenced by Advaita and apply it to the Quran. Without them, it is not possible to find anything beautiful about the Quran, I challenge you to state anything contrary to this statement that isn't itself contradicted by the Quran.


Bring forth your proof...

Read the Quran, it is enough proof of what I say.

They incorrectly and blatantly misuse scripture. They do not follow it, in the least. I can see you joined today, Please do me a favor and read through the comments here and the Islam Forum "What's wrong with Islam" I'm sure you have much to learn.

They don't though, the Prophet rapped a women over the blood of her beheaded husband, these terrorists are tame by comparison.

unfortunately that is true of every view, even Atheistic ones. It is a fallibility of man.

I think you prove that all views should be questioned, not that a particular view should be defended...


Be careful what you wish for 1.6B people unified and integrated around the world might not be a force you want to oppress.

I do not think for a second that 1.6 billion people are inhumane... I think most of these people would drop Islam in a second if given an alternative... unfortunately, in Muslim states, dropping the religion is punishable by death... lo, most people would rather live.


It's not and no he didn't.

I have already given an example of Muhammad's actual actions, I find this ignorant, honestly.

Look, the simple fact of the matter is before Muhammad became a war monger, the religion was a failure... he had less than 100 followers before they started becoming barbaric. Once he started waging war, he eventually took over the entire Arabian peninsular, but to pretend it was on any valid premise is simply delusional... people in general like being alive, this is the only basis for the spread of Islam... there simply is no other.

The founder was an idiot, and offers nothing to human consciousness at all... he just scared a lot of people. I would suggest you are too scared to see this.


again, please read before continuing the last guy got banned for his inability to do so.

I have read the Quran, I have read Hadith, I have read many Muslim sources... I wanted to love Muhammad because of his Sufi's, but the entire religion is simply disgusting... if I am banned for telling the truth then I shouldn't be here... I do not desire to be anywhere that forgives such disgusting behavior...

What is sad is you probably are fully aware of the atrocities of Muhammad, you just want them ignored.
 
Jannah can only be the next moment after life
fair enough for your view, but saying it can ONLY be this or that is showing your biased approach.
but Muslim doctrine creates a hellish psyche.
it might help to explain when you make bold (and wild) claims such as this. I seriously doubt a Utopia full of gardens and rivers and mansions for people is a "hellish psyche" if I am gathering your claim correctly.
Sufi's basically are influenced by Advaita and apply it to the Quran.
I've met Sufis, Been to Sufi Masjids, etc. I'm not so sure the Sufiism you are describing is very mainstream. I've never witnessed anyone claiming a direct tie from Hinduism to Islam, although I've heard it argued that Hindu beliefs is simply an old form of misunderstood Islam similar to Judaism or Christianity.
Without them, it is not possible to find anything beautiful about the Quran, I challenge you to state anything contrary to this statement that isn't itself contradicted by the Quran.
Bold claim. Billions have found beauty in the Quran. Hundreds of thousands of new readers find it every year. I'm guessing whoever taught you about Islam did a (pardon my expression) piss poor job of it. It has long been presented that even the language used us beautiful, Nouman Ali Khan does a great job of explaining it in many of his talks (language study is his specialty)

Read the Quran, it is enough proof of what I say.
I have read it, I know many who have memorized it. I know many who have read it and changed their outlook completely after reading it. Noone I have ever met that has actually read it has ever claimed such as you have. I've seen countless talkshow preachers try to convince people of things, but I find it's always the same, they manipulate the Aya, neglect the context and surrounding Ayas, and Awkwardly translate a translation to fit their needs. I asked for proof, you simply said the Quran is proof, yet have brought not 1 aya from it. My guess is after this you will go to one of the numerous Christian sites attempting to denounce Islam and pick a few. However you should read back a dozen or so posts before you showed up, and look through the level of detail those have been refuted and how even a simpleton such as myself can systematically destroy their arguments.
 
Lol Steve... you stopped too early. I should have at least given him 1 more chance to explain the rest of it... I literally got cut off mid argument :D
 
Lol Steve... you stopped too early. I should have at least given him 1 more chance to explain the rest of it... I literally got cut off mid argument :D
His content has been restored and he isn't banned. We'll see if he continues down the same path.
 
They don't though, the Prophet rapped a women over the blood of her beheaded husband, these terrorists are tame by comparison.
assuming you mean raped... as him rapping at a woman seems mean and all, but rap wasn't around for another 1350 some odd years... I would love to see your source. I am pretty sure I know where you got it from, but let's see if you can actually find it anywhere legit. 2 sources that are quite good you can try are Quran.com and Sunnah.com . other than that you will have to give detailed information so as to pinpoint where you found it. I have access to an Islamic Library, so if you really do have something, I'll be sure to look it up.

I think you prove that all views should be questioned, not that a particular view should be defended...
Partially correct, C for effort on that one... It proves that the views themselves aren't the fault but rather mankind and our inability to be perfect is often if not always at fault.

I do not think for a second that 1.6 billion people are inhumane... I think most of these people would drop Islam in a second if given an alternative... unfortunately, in Muslim states, dropping the religion is punishable by death... lo, most people would rather live.
Bold claim there, and what do you base this claim on? Most you say, so what are you thinking 60%, 70%, 80%. I hope you realize a Majority of Muslims live in countries where Apostacy isn't punishable. And to find a state sponsored law you really can only look at 2-3 countries. Unless you can show any proof to such a claim I'll chalk this up to your personal probably non-substantiated claim.

I have already given an example of Muhammad's actual actions, I find this ignorant, honestly.
you did so in this post, hardly a point of contention to already refute. Even that one is likely baseless. Mind you I am a revert, I went through all these claims before I chose this path. I know where most of them come from, so Please if you have better sources, state them. Mind you I don't put a lot of weight on modern authors without referencing actual documentation of events.

Look, the simple fact of the matter is before Muhammad became a war monger,
He didn't, with maybe 1 exception every war he was involved in was based defensively.

the religion was a failure... he had less than 100 followers before they started becoming barbaric.
ooh tough one to prove also. See the only time he had that low numbers is when he left Mecca into Medina. Medinese were much more willing to speak with him and many joined there. There wasn't a war to gain people.

he eventually took over the entire Arabian peninsular, but to pretend it was on any valid premise is simply delusional...
most of the Peninsula joined willingly, with a few issues here and there. But there was no major campaigns. Most battles began when an area rejected his prophethood and then attacked him to prove they were correct. Would you like some examples or has this basic knowledge already been taught to you?
people in general like being alive, this is the only basis for the spread of Islam... there simply is no other.
So equality of man, a perfect scripture (linguistically, scientifically (what it describes has never been proven wrong, not that it teaches new ideas about science), etc), a social/political structure that if followed correctly leaves no man/woman/child without food, clothing, or other basic necessities, common manners we still use today... none of these attracted people?

The founder was an idiot, and offers nothing to human consciousness at all...
The founder being? In our view the Founder is ALLAH, as Mouhammed (PBUH) was merely a messenger and slave of Allah. You can argue that since you don't believe in the concept of a God, Mouhammed (PBUH) made this religion himself, but that's hardly offering nothing since it has stood for 1400+ years without being abandoned.

I have read the Quran
If this is true great, but given your comments, I have to doubt it. Either that or whoever your teacher was did a craptastic job of explaining it.

I have read Hadith
All of it? That's quite a feat, Sahih Buhkari has what 7,200 (some repeated) Hadiths. Sahih Muslim 2,200. And 4 other books that are generally considered semi-reliable. not to mention the Dozens of smaller volumes. You might be one of the utmost authorities to not only read them but remember them well enough to know their strengths to make claims no scholar has ever done before. [sarcasm]

I have read many Muslim sources...
so, poems, history documents, etc?

I wanted to love Muhammad because of his Sufi's,
Mouhammed (PBUH) didn't have Sufis. The Sufi movement came much later and in many ways contradicts many of the teachings Mouhammed (PBUH) taught. Their reliance on magic and mysticism kindof defeats the purpose of the Islamic life structure. They are by all means free to believe as they want, and although the major difference exists the Ummah is not completely separated from them.

but the entire religion is simply disgusting...
Come on the entire religion? surely you are smart enough not to make such baseless claims.
if I am banned for telling the truth then I shouldn't be here...
If you are to be banned, it won't be from you telling the truth, It will be from essentially flame warring. making baseless claims in a direct attack on a particular religion. There are sites where that is acceptable, but we prefer a more scholarly approach here. Claims must be substantiated with references and cites and at least an attempt be made to be civil.

What is sad is you probably are fully aware of the atrocities of Muhammad, you just want them ignored.
Wrong again. in the couple years I studied Islam before accepting it, I never found 1 warranted claim of atrocities nor even a single act of questionable rudeness. The closest thing I found was his wife's age, but upon delving into it more, found that not only is her age questioned, it wasn't uncommon anywhere in the world for a pubescent girl to be married. up until the early 1900s a 15 year old girl who was un married in the US would be considered old and undesirable or thought to have been doing "evil" acts.
 
fair enough for your view, but saying it can ONLY be this or that is showing your biased approach.

Are you suggesting the Quran allows heaven to be something other than another world?

it might help to explain when you make bold (and wild) claims such as this. I seriously doubt a Utopia full of gardens and rivers and mansions for people is a "hellish psyche" if I am gathering your claim correctly.

Quran 2:191 is as good a start as any...

I've met Sufis, Been to Sufi Masjids, etc. I'm not so sure the Sufiism you are describing is very mainstream. I've never witnessed anyone claiming a direct tie from Hinduism to Islam, although I've heard it argued that Hindu beliefs is simply an old form of misunderstood Islam similar to Judaism or Christianity.

The Indian schools all recognize Advaita to be a huge influence on their notion of Tawhid.

We end up with stuff like:


Even though music is haram.
 
assuming you mean raped... as him rapping at a woman seems mean and all, but rap wasn't around for another 1350 some odd years... I would love to see your source. I am pretty sure I know where you got it from, but let's see if you can actually find it anywhere legit. 2 sources that are quite good you can try are Quran.com and Sunnah.com . other than that you will have to give detailed information so as to pinpoint where you found it. I have access to an Islamic Library, so if you really do have something, I'll be sure to look it up.

I cannot find the particular hadith, but it centers around Saffiya... I see no reason why Muslims would claim such a thing if it didn't happen, this isn't something I or others are making up... perhaps you should read more hadith yourself?


Partially correct, C for effort on that one... It proves that the views themselves aren't the fault but rather mankind and our inability to be perfect is often if not always at fault.

It is impossible to be perfect when your ideal is a mass murdering brute.


Bold claim there, and what do you base this claim on? Most you say, so what are you thinking 60%, 70%, 80%. I hope you realize a Majority of Muslims live in countries where Apostacy isn't punishable. And to find a state sponsored law you really can only look at 2-3 countries. Unless you can show any proof to such a claim I'll chalk this up to your personal probably non-substantiated claim.

I base it on the fact that I'm still alive despite the Quran and Hadith not permitting anyone that isn't a Muslim to live.


He didn't, with maybe 1 exception every war he was involved in was based defensively.

This is stupid, he has offended the locals and then claims their reaction forced him to be a war monger? Again, before he began waging war, there were not 100 followers... his religion was simply a failure on intellectual grounds.


ooh tough one to prove also. See the only time he had that low numbers is when he left Mecca into Medina. Medinese were much more willing to speak with him and many joined there. There wasn't a war to gain people.

Fallacy, when he moved his followers became violent. There would be no Islam today if they hadn't started killing everyone that disagreed.


most of the Peninsula joined willingly, with a few issues here and there. But there was no major campaigns. Most battles began when an area rejected his prophethood and then attacked him to prove they were correct. Would you like some examples or has this basic knowledge already been taught to you?

Where is your basis for this claim of willingness? They didn't like dying...

So equality of man, a perfect scripture (linguistically, scientifically (what it describes has never been proven wrong, not that it teaches new ideas about science), etc), a social/political structure that if followed correctly leaves no man/woman/child without food, clothing, or other basic necessities, common manners we still use today... none of these attracted people?

Except that the Quran doesn't teach equality at all... it teaches that no unbeliever should live and that a womans sole purpose is to bare children... it is utterly disgusting... further, do we have to bring up basic things like the claim of the Quran that the earth doesn't revolve? It is absurd to pretend it even has any particular scientific insight... it is just a fanatical text.


The founder being? In our view the Founder is ALLAH, as Mouhammed (PBUH) was merely a messenger and slave of Allah. You can argue that since you don't believe in the concept of a God, Mouhammed (PBUH) made this religion himself, but that's hardly offering nothing since it has stood for 1400+ years without being abandoned.

The founder is Muhammad... he claims that many have come before, but none of those accept him. He doesn't even accept them wholly, for anyone that doesn't agree with him is simply corrupted. We are expected to simply believe this man, despite proof in Hadith that he went to Jews to know certain things about the law... I wonder why Allah didn't teach him about it?

Come on the entire religion? surely you are smart enough not to make such baseless claims.

I think the very fact that you support it makes YOU disgusting, yes.

If you are to be banned, it won't be from you telling the truth, It will be from essentially flame warring. making baseless claims in a direct attack on a particular religion. There are sites where that is acceptable, but we prefer a more scholarly approach here. Claims must be substantiated with references and cites and at least an attempt be made to be civil.

None of my claims are baseless, unfortunately for you I fell in love with the Sufi's and so researching this was very important to me... I WANTED to find something good about Muhammad, but it is impossible.


Wrong again. in the couple years I studied Islam before accepting it, I never found 1 warranted claim of atrocities nor even a single act of questionable rudeness. The closest thing I found was his wife's age, but upon delving into it more, found that not only is her age questioned, it wasn't uncommon anywhere in the world for a pubescent girl to be married. up until the early 1900s a 15 year old girl who was un married in the US would be considered old and undesirable or thought to have been doing "evil" acts.

I would have to question why an enlightened being is taking so many wives in the first place... why is he so caught in worldly affairs to need sex so much? We have many enlightened beings in Dharmic schools who have never engaged in sex at all... you are essentially saying that because it was the norm we should just accept it, but this is the last messenger, he is supposed to be the final and perfect message from God. I think perhaps he should have been a little less impulsive... maybe it should have taken more than 1400 years for him to be utterly morally inept by common standards.
 
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