Who's Sin is it Anyway?

BigJoeNobody said:
you and I must know different Atheists.
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If there are any atheists that support making people give up religion by force on YouTube or other such social media, I would ask you to point them out to me. Aside from anti-religious governments such as the former Soviet Union and China. Maybe that is what you meant? I know of no individuals who actively are attempting to drive people from their religion. Wishing they would? Yes. Mocking them that they should? Yes. Forcing them to? No.
 
Devils' Advocate said:
Joe. Seriously? Mocking someone's beliefs can in no way be considered forcing someone to believe differently. Come on.
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Mocking someone's belief is a direct attack on the individual and their intelligence...it is the assault side of assault(verbal violence) and battery (physical violence)...

Me thinks I'm guilty of this...
 
I think people around the world today who are physically being forced to change their faith on pain of death or torture would consider it ridiculous to suggest that someone mouthing off on YouTube is in any way forcing anyone to do anything. Heck you don't even have to watch them if they offend you!
 
Emi said:
Oh, thanks fantastic. I'm always interested in speaking with those that convert into Islam.
What made you decide to convert, or what resonated with you in Islam that Christianity lacked?
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I think it might be best to explore these questions further in one of the other threads, such as my Into thread. but in short, I believed the cores of christianity/judaism, but always found consistency to be lacking. In Islam, even through translation, I didn't have to guess which lines were manmade and which were God-spoken.
 
Devils' Advocate said:
I think people around the world today who are physically being forced to change their faith on pain of death or torture would consider it ridiculous to suggest that someone mouthing off on YouTube is in any way forcing anyone to do anything. Heck you don't even have to watch them if they offend you!
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different tactics, same process
 
BigJoeNobody said:
I think it might be best to explore these questions further in one of the other threads, such as my Into thread. but in short, I believed the cores of christianity/judaism, but always found consistency to be lacking. In Islam, even through translation, I didn't have to guess which lines were manmade and which were God-spoken.
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Oh wow, that is very profound. Do you have a link to the thread you mentioned?
 
BigJoeNobody said:
but if someone can disbelieve at the tip of a sword, they never truly believed.
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Or how about the end of a gun? Equally effective, no? Or threat of a noose? Seems to me a WHOLE LOT of those who never "truly believed" would make themselves known under penalty of death.

The problem is suggesting execution is even an option to test one's faith is a repulsive suggestion, and smacks of the prejudice of jizyah, the intolerance of Islam, and gross hatred of humanity on a wide scale.

Maybe a better test is those who abandon their own country when the going gets tough?
 
juantoo3 said:
Or how about the end of a gun? Equally effective, no? Or threat of a noose? Seems to me a WHOLE LOT of those who never "truly believed" would make themselves known under penalty of death.

The problem is suggesting execution is even an option to test one's faith is a repulsive suggestion, and smacks of the prejudice of jizyah, the intolerance of Islam, and gross hatred of humanity on a wide scale.

Maybe a better test is those who abandon their own country when the going gets tough?
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wow... you really twisted that one all up in an attempt to "show up" Islam. I'm wondering, is any of this what you got from my post, or you just twisting the words to further your "Islam is wrong" agenda. I'm not even going to comment on it until you tell me whether or not you seriously got that I was saying people should be tested at the tip of a sword. IF that is truly what you got, you sir will be wearing a dunce hat for a month.

At no point in all of our arguments have you given any evidence that supports your 2nd paragraph. Yet you claim it all the time. Prejudice of Jizyah? You don't think it's fair that people who are outsiders living in foreign lands who are not required to contribute to society should help pay for the cost of living/protection? Intolerance of Islam? please elaborate... how is the 1 religion which is all encompassing intolerant? How is a religion which says that unbelieving people who live amongst believers are to be protected/nurtured/respected an intolerant religion? No we don't allow people to walk over us as the Christians have. We don't bend our laws to allow sin to spread more quickly as the Jews have. We encourage people to remain on the singular Best Path, unlike the Hindus have. That is not intolerance, that is looking out for the better good of humanity.

The last statement, I'm pretty sure you got from me.
 
It is not I who suggested a person's faith should be tested "at the tip of a sword." In fact, if I were to suggest Muslims should have their faith tested at the point of a sword...or any method of execution...you would be rightly indignant. Yet here you presume to tell me I am wrong. No sir, not this time...not in this life.

Show me *one,* just one, convert from Christianity to Islam that has been threatened with death for doing so in the past two hundred years.

I can show converts from Islam to Christianity that have been threatened by authority with death for converting. Those that assist in the conversion are under penalty of death, by the authorities. Jizyah...pay an additional tax or convert, or die...and the all too often convenience of the state is death if one doesn't convert.

And you dare preach to me about faith at the point of a sword! I will say the same with a sword at my throat!
 
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juantoo3 said:
The problem is suggesting execution is even an option to test one's faith is a repulsive suggestion, and smacks of the prejudice of jizyah, the intolerance of Islam, and gross hatred of humanity on a wide scale.
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Scholarly interfaith at it's finest, no? I don't see why you sett others to a standard you don't wish to follow yourself.
 
How is a religion which says that unbelieving people who live amongst believers are to be protected/nurtured/respected an intolerant religion?
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What fantasy land?

Seriously...that might be the words, but the practice is far from this...and anyone with half a brain can see it for themselves. Islamic nations are among the least tolerant of any states.

"So they're not 'real' Muslims"...yeah, then who are? I'm supposed to take the words on faith and ignore the reality all around me.

Not.
 
So I shouldn't expect interfaith from you? I don't expect it from most people here, but I know they all try.
 
juantoo3 said:
It is not I who suggested a person's faith should be tested "at the tip of a sword."
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Then Who did? I certainly did not, I don't see any other comments suggesting it.
juantoo3 said:
In fact, if I were to suggest Muslims should have their faith tested at the point of a sword...or any method of execution...you would be rightly indignant.
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fair enough... indignant I am. I see noone else suggesting that so I'm guessing either A you wanted to say it was like what you claim I said, or B you are just pulling things out of your anal cavity.

juantoo3 said:
Yet here you presume to tell me I am wrong. No sir, not this time...not in this life.
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I don't presume.... I NEVER SAID IT, NOR DID YOU ACTUALLY READ THAT!
juantoo3 said:
Show me *one,* just one, convert from Christianity to Islam that has been threatened with death for doing so in the past two hundred years.
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Just the ones who went to Islam? Are we discounting The Christian terrorist organizations of Central africa? or the Russian bombardment of Chechniya (and any converts), or how about the recent converts who went to live with the Turks in China... those disregarded? How about those that McVeigh(SP?) killed for the "non-christian" actions of Abortion.

juantoo3 said:
I can show converts from Islam to Christianity that have been threatened by authority with death for converting. Those that assist in the conversion are under penalty of death, by the authorities.
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gotta love politics huh... so does the religion allow it? or are they working off their own will? hmmm.... you are smart enough to know the answer, but your hatred all of a sudden is clouding your mind.

juantoo3 said:
And you dare preach to me about faith at the point of a sword! I will say the same with a sword at my throat!
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Then you truly believe what you believe is worth dieing for, great. me too... Would I want to be tested in this way? No. Hence MY ENTIRE POST.
BigJoeNobody said:
how would someone on Youtube physically force someone to not believe... for that matter how would one force anyone to believe??? maybe force their children by not allowing anyone to say otherwise... but if someone can disbelieve at the tip of a sword, they never truly believed.
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just so you can read how this all got started.


juantoo3 said:
What fantasy land?

Seriously...that might be the words, but the practice is far from this...and anyone with half a brain can see it for themselves. Islamic nations are among the least tolerant of any states.

"So they're not 'real' Muslims"...yeah, then who are? I'm supposed to take the words on faith and ignore the reality all around me.

Not.
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This world... it is a religion consisting of billions of people. And you are referencing what 5 countries consisting less the 15% of the entire MUSLIM POPULATION. How have you been slighted? Where do you live that muslims are all around you not being tolerant. While you are at it, please tell me where in the Quran intolerance of a group of people is preached... you're a smart guy sometimes, I'm sure you have read the text of those you so dispise.
 
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