Is it wrong to tell an aetheist parent that their dead child "is in heaven"?

[A Cup Of Tea]

Joe, I don't think you need to translate on our account, I think your translator is broken. Or is it making straw men on purpose?

 

[BigJoeNobody]

Now here's where I'm going to ruffle a few feathers.

Here is the warning... ie, this is not something everyone will agree, others will get upset...

Actually, I find the whole situation rather ironic.

He stated his overall view of the scenario

Here's a baby born with seemingly no medical chance at survival.

Restating for clarity the scenario.

Yet, the parents, by rejecting God have completely disallowed the one thing that may have enabled their child to survive.

Part of his religious view. (It would take a miracle for the child to survive, yet the parents will not accept God, giving them a more negligible chance at saving the child)

Prayer to the almighty!

Expression of faith... Similar to Glory be to God, or Allahu Akbar, or a number of other statements,

It's almost as if God was given them one last chance to see the light and they yet again failed to see it.

Explanation of the 2nd sentence, along with more personal view

The way I see it, how merciful God is having spared an innocent from growing up in a Godless home.

Summation of view and conclusion. If he had said this to someone while they were grieving, yes it would be rude. But nowhere did he state his intent to shove it down someone's throat in their time of mourning. If I was to describe this scenario from any Abrahamic position, it would have been the same. You may not like that God doesn't offer disbelievers a nice a fluffy existence after death, but that doesn't mean it isn't real. This shell of an existence we live in, is nothing. A mere test to the wonder that God can create. Some "progressives" might think all are going to heaven regardless, but show me a single reference that says that. The Bible doesn't, The Torah surely doesn't, The Quran doesn't, From my understanding the Hindu texts don't even say all people are destined for Heaven (or Nirvana,etc. please excuse my lack of knowledge to the Hindu vocabulary)

I think your translator is broken. Or is it making straw men on purpose?

Please explain where my translator is broken. Or making straw men. Please take a minute to read it carefully, I am not asking you to accept his, nor my, view. Just that you consider his point as his, for what he stated and not for that you added to make it personal.

 

[Namaste Jesus]

Just so I'm sure, it is this comment we are discussing?
"The way I see it, how merciful God is having spared an innocent from growing up in a Godless home."

Yes and that's the problem. A few people are harping on the last sentence in Aussie's post and ignoring everything else he said. Like this:

Perhaps something along the lines of, I know you don't believe as I do, but if there's anything I can do, would be more appropriate.

A very nice alternative to a Godly condolence for a grieving atheist parent.

...but what of Aussie's last statement? He was merely expressing his take on the situation from a believers perspective. He never once suggested that this was the sentiment that should be expressed to the grieving parents.

You know, I had a miserable childhood. Alcoholic father, public housing, welfare, but the one thing that made it all bearable was God. So I can definitely see where someone would view death as a merciful alternative.

 

[wil]

So...there begs the question... In a believers mind with an omnipresent god....there is no such thing as a godless house eh?

 

[Devils' Advocate]

If he had said this to someone while they were grieving, yes it would be rude. But nowhere did he state his intent to shove it down someone's throat in their time of mourning.

Seriously? I suggest you read the OP again. Sure sounds like they are still grieving to me. It is this very point that I find so offensive. You just do not pour salt on open wounds if you are a compassionate person. Your own belief may be that your god took the child so it wouldn't be raised in a godless house. Fine. Believe what you want, I could not care less. I care a lot when your going to state your comment knowing it will be taken as a slap in the face to someone who does not believe as you do. And Aussie knew quite clearly that that is what he was doing because he states himself that he is going to ruffle some feathers.

This whole debate isn't about whether one believes in gods or not. It isn't about what your personal beliefs are, nor how strongly you feel about them. The debate is about making a comment you know is cruel to the op just because it is what you believe. Jesus supposedly taught that it was all about love first and foremost. Doing unto others as you would have them to unto you and all that.

I have tried to make this point several times now, and I don't expect I will get any more understanding this time than I did the last few times. So this is the last time I will comment on this point.

 

[Devils' Advocate]

What are you on about mate? All I did was give an opinion from my perspective. Exactly who have I spit on?

Last comment to you as well. If you cannot or will not acknowledge the very simple answer to that, there is no point in pursuing this further with you.

 

[BigJoeNobody]

Seriously? I suggest you read the OP again.

The OP is a statement from an article. Not an Individual here who is having an issue and looking for an opinion. Was the last paragraph applicable to the OP? not really. It related to it in that it was discussing a why it might have happened, but nowhere did it direct an attack on the individual. To be fair he offered an answer to the OP's question. Then proceeded to give an opinion. If you are so offended by his opinion, what are you doing on an IF site?

Sure sounds like they are still grieving to me.

The people in the article? maybe... didn't read the post date on the article... more than likely though given they lost a child.

It is this very point that I find so offensive. You just do not pour salt on open wounds if you are a compassionate person.

There is no wound here... Who's wound is being exacerbated? Again, His statement was not to tell the person their child died because they don't believe. his answer to that was:

As to the question, "Is it wrong to tell an atheist parent that their dead child is in heaven?" To me there's no question. Offering condolence is the right thing to do and should be received in the spirit in which it is given regardless of whether or not you agree with the sentiment expressed.

That said, if you know the person you're expressing condolence to is atheist, you've got to realize Godly sentiments will fall on deaf ears. Save your breath. Perhaps something along the lines of, I know you don't believe as I do, but if there's anything I can do, would be more appropriate.

So if you want an answer to the OP, He said essentially that the parents should accept the condolences as a good gesture, given that it was meant in kind. As an alternative he said the portion above in red.

Your own belief may be that your god took the child so it wouldn't be raised in a godless house. Fine. Believe what you want, I could not care less.

Since I believe in only 1 god, "your god" isn't necessary. It would have worked better as "Your own belief may be that God took ...". But you don't believe, so you wouldn't think that maybe that in and of itself is offensive. Now I realize where I'm posting, and accept that people make errors like this, and that people's views differ, sometimes greatly. Sometimes so grotesquely that I cannot fathom the ideas. But I don't come out and attack someone verbally or try to censor them for something, especially without trying to assemble their thoughts, and processes.

I care a lot when your going to state your comment knowing it will be taken as a slap in the face to someone who does not believe as you do. And Aussie knew quite clearly that that is what he was doing because he states himself that he is going to ruffle some feathers.

not a slap in the face, a disagreement... that is a completely different thing. When people come here and state Mouhammed (PBUH) was a Murderer and all Muslims are also, that is a slap in the face. But how has it been handled? I gave an outlet for people to make their claim and have it answered... That is what a forum is for. If you didn't like his POV, start a thread about it, discuss it, don't just keep repeating it's offensive and to reread the OP when you clearly misunderstood that the OP was based on an article. If it was a personal issue, it should have been stated and a "Is this appropriate" thread shouldn't have been made.

This whole debate isn't about whether one believes in gods or not. It isn't about what your personal beliefs are, nor how strongly you feel about them.

Isn't it? I mean you guys have tried awful hard to pull the "That's what's wrong with Christians Card.

The debate is about making a comment you know is cruel to the op just because it is what you believe.

I guess I just don't get sentimental about a web article's feelings... My bad...

Jesus supposedly taught that it was all about love first and foremost. Doing unto others as you would have them to unto you and all that.

Yes it is a common lesson... But this doesn't apply to every physical thing. I don't personally care for the smell of farts... Not really interested in learning to love them either... Nor do I care about an inanimate objects non-existent feelings.

I have tried to make this point several times now, and I don't expect I will get any more understanding this time than I did the last few times. So this is the last time I will comment on this point.

This is because you never look back to think, "maybe I missed something." Or "Why would someone who posts here all the time say something so infuriating. Is it possible I'm looking at the wrong angle?"

 

[wil]

The concept that G!d took a child... For a better purpose or in a better place...I know many devout Christian that have had issues with that condolence...

 

[wil]

I'm probably going to make some unpopular statements here, but it's what I feel in my heart so let the chips fall where they may.

oh crap...the chips fell...

As to the question, "Is it wrong to tell an atheist parent that their dead child is in heaven?" To me there's no question. Offering condolence is the right thing to do and should be received in the spirit in which it is given regardless of whether or not you agree with the sentiment expressed.

here I would think the one providing comfort is the one who has time to choose their words...and if their intent is to provide comfort...those would obviously be the wrong words...

That said, if you know the person you're expressing condolence to is atheist, you've got to realize Godly sentiments will fall on deaf ears. Save your breath. Perhaps something along the lines of, I know you don't believe as I do, but if there's anything I can do, would be more appropriate.

yes exactly

Now here's where I'm going to ruffle a few feathers. A

and let those chips fall..

ctually, I find the whole situation rather ironic. Here's a baby born with seemingly no medical chance at survival. Yet, the parents, by rejecting God have completely disallowed the one thing that may have enabled their child to survive. Prayer to the almighty! It's almost as if God was given them one last chance to see the light and they yet again failed to see it. The

that tricky passive aggressive loving God and his tests

way I see it, how merciful God is having spared an innocent from growing up in a Godless home.

yeah...that is the part folks object to... Clearly well thought out, compassionate thinking there...

So glad you shared.

 

[A Cup Of Tea]

Here is the warning... ie, this is not something everyone will agree, others will get upset...

Yeah, people disagree and get upset, that is what is happening, he called it, and it happened. Why would we need to read it again?

Please explain where my translator is broken. Or making straw men.

"Is it that maybe you know that there might be some merit to his point, or are you just trying to show your own superiority?"
"Getting mad at someone because they think they are right and..."
"I think people..."
"People want to..."
"People seem to want to be offended by everything, without actually trying to find out what they are upset about."
These statements does not reflect y views. For some reason you seem to have assumed they do and I don't know why. A good starting point is asking instead of thinking you know other people better then they know themselves. You really, really don't.

Please take a minute to read it carefully, I am not asking you to accept his, nor my, view. Just that you consider his point as his, for what he stated and not for that you added to make it personal.

I read every word of it, I don't know why you want me to keep rereading it, perhaps you don't understand what the objection is?

Yes and that's the problem. A few people are harping on the last sentence in Aussie's post and ignoring everything else he said.

I'm not ignoring it, it's just not relevant to what I'm objecting to. If you two want to have an actual conversation with me on this please stop assuming what I object to, it means we can skip this time consuming part of the conversation.

I did >not< think he would say this to a grieving parent. It is the fact that an atheists home is such a horrible place that death is a better option. If this is not what he intended, sure, lets take the discussion where he intended it to go. But if that is what he intended to say can we move on from the "you read things into it" and "read it again" and discuss things?

So I can definitely see where someone would view death as a merciful alternative.

Sure, I know pain that makes me feel the same way, saying this pain is equal growing up in an Atheist, Christian, Muslim, Republican or Communist home is, I feel, the opposite of interfaith.

We are here for interfaith, everything else is secondary. We are not here just to say shit. If shit gets in the way of interfaith, the shit needs to go back in the closet.

 

[Aussie Thoughts]

Whatever makes your vessel buoyant.

It is the fact that an atheists home is such a horrible place that death is a better option. If this is not what he intended, sure, lets take the discussion where he intended it to go.

For the record, as NJ pointed out, I made the statement from the perspective of a believer. As a believer I rely on God heavily. Therefore, from my perspective, the thought of being in a Godless environment is completely horrifying.

 

[wil]

Therefore, from my perspective, the thought of being in a God

As a believer....where is a godless environment?

God is in the atheist, Christ is in the atheist... Whatever you do to the least...you do to me....

 

[Senthil]

I grew up in a godless environment. My father was respected in the community. We went fishing every Sunday morning all summer long, and swam in the river. I played baseball, had fun in school, played hockey on the rink Dad made for us all winter, watched a ton of great TV with Mom, and learned how to be a responsible citizen, a net contributor. On long winter nights we learned many card games like 500, cribbage, whist. My father never hit me.

Meanwhile my neighbours up the road had Bible study every Wednesday, went to church every Sunday. They weren't allowed to come to community picnics or play ball. They couldn't swim in that dirty river or go fishing. They didn't have a rink to skate on. They couldn't watch TV or play cards. The occasionally came to school bruised, and were quiet kids. As teenagers several rebelled big time and discovered booze. One committed suicide. Needless to say, they weren't allowed to play with us.

This thread is just so depressing. My very different paradigm is so incredibly obvious here, and that does give me some solace. My God is a loving God, not an anthropomorphised mean spirited one who takes kids away from godless homes. He sees all as it should be, states of evolution. I am far closet to atheists than to this stuff. It's so far away I can hardly grasp it at all. It just doesn't make any sense ... at all. Neither did all the times I was told 'The truth hurts, doesn't it?" That truth being I was going to hell.

I know all too well what some members of some Christian churches think of me. I'm going to hell according to them. Some are polite enough not to say it to my face. Their God would have taken my children from me, beat them, and made them good Christians, I suppose, just as they did to the aboriginals here. My opinion of them is that they are in a perfect state of their own evolution, and will eventually even go to moksha as all souls do. What irony! They believe I'm going to hell, but I believe they're going to heaven. (eventually) Born in anava, we play in maya, and karma is the balancer. Triple bondage of life.

People wonder when I say I'm not sure if we're actually praying to the same God. After this thread, it's incredibly clear to me that we're not.

This is enlightening ... to see the true colours, as I was so suspicious of earlier. It's a slippery slope, and they've come a long way from killing the atheists and the infidels, although it seems their God would still revel in that, being the 'compassionate' one he is.

This is most likely my last post here as well. Thanks to the people who do really understand interfaith, and are willing to take this stuff on. Best wishes in accomplishing something. It will be an uphill battle.

 

[StevePame]

You all have spilled quite a bit of internet ink on this thread, so there isn't too much I'm going to add. Generally speaking, I find a lot of positions raised in this thread to not align with an interfaith approach, although some of you have done a commendable job of trying to tiptoe through the minefield and move this thread in a useful direction. As much as I dislike some views, however, I will not censor them because I hope that some good can come from this discussion. The OP has generated a range of responses which reflect the diversity of our opinions. As was suggested, start other threads to unpack some of these charged issues on their own. A lot of ideas are conflating together all at once which is muddying the waters and getting us nowhere. If you choose to engage in those other threads, remember that we're not here to level personal attacks at one another.

Senthil, you will be missed if that was indeed your last post. I wish you well and hope you'll poke your head in every now and then.