Why Do We Trust Ancient Texts as Accurate?

The fact that most scientists are atheist or agnostic
I love this statement, it goes to show that people use common soundbites more than actual numbers. First, what is a scientist. What fields are we accepting into this numerical analysis. If one assumes anyone with a Bachelors of Science degree, World-wide, I think these numbers might skew a bit from the normal rhetoric. It is true the most outspoken of "scientists" appear to be irreligious in the US, again, that doesn't necessarily take into account the full scope of scientists.
 
Could it not very well be that Science has explained Gods intent on many things?

I fully agree. And even more, in my view, for those who believe there is an ultimately meaning-full basis for reality, there is no such thing as a non-religious experience, including in science. Too often it is thought that a religious experience must be something dramatic and profound. But with an ultimate basis of reality, then anything, if thought about, reveals something about the creation, activity, and purpose for life. I like how Paul Tillich described the religious content of people, places, events, things, etc. as those things that are transparent to the divine. Now this transparency is often felt in moving things like art, music, nature, literature, relationships, etc. but I believe everything including the evil in the world says something about the divine dynamic in the creation and activity of reality.
 
Believe me, those of us, apparently in the minority, who see the religious BS for what it is live in much greater fear than you across the pond as we are stuck with what these whacko's decide is appropriate for our nation. Most of the rest of the world looks at us and think we have gone insane as a country. And you would be right to think so. I don't know if you can imagine how embarrassed and ashamed I am of my country, having lived for a number of generations watching the pendulum swing more and more to the conservative extreme with each passing year.

As an American, I too am appalled by the extreme shift to the right in some circles. However, I think the media here in the US is a lot to blame for it. I don't know about Europe, but here in the US there has been a rise of conservative TV news and talk radio. And they promote tribalism and fear. Now, numerous studies have shown that conservatives and liberals are, in effect, wired differently. Conservatives are more susceptible to fear and don't like ambiguity. Now, I'm not making a value judgement here. Fear and ambiguity avoidance can be a good thing in some circumstances. However, if there is more of a tendency to want stability (conservative) and fear change, then if that fear is exacerbated by a media frenzy (if it bleeds, it leads) then it will make its way into the populace.
 
Steve, I agree the media plays a huge part in the problem. 50 years ago there was a liberal media. Then they decided that the news had to be a money making proposition. Stories that got the most viewership took the forefront. The last nail in the coffin was when almost every major news outlet was purchased and is now owned by Big Corp, and they tell the media what kind of news to follow and what is to be avoided.

It has been famously said that a democracy cannot survive without a free & unfettered news media. We are seeing the reality of that because there is no longer any such group.
 
I love this statement, it goes to show that people use common soundbites more than actual numbers...
I agree. But no doubt someone will come back with a selective sample.

I settle to the fact that such names as Ricoeur, Lonergan, Polkinghorne ... all giants in their field, all religious believers. As DA says, there is no dispute between science and religion until one or t'other operates out of its bounds. The science v religion thing is a meme.
 
Believe me, those of us, apparently in the minority, who see the religious BS for what it is ...
That's my point. The problem you identify is largely in your court, and largely the play of politics over the latter half of the last century. So the problem is 'relative' in that sense, but tough for those living in and through it. Intelligent Design, Creationism etc., are the children of your right-wing think-tanks. Pure nonsense. And don't start me on the 'Left Behind' phenomena ... suffice to say that no-one in Europe gives a moment's thought to 'The Rapture' ... for you guys its a big deal, and so obviously plays to nationalist aspirations.

I have always thought American religiosity owes more to the negative aspects of the Old Testament than anything else. God is the sheriff that rides into town; the secret desire that He will turn up and 'Kick Arse' (or 'ass', as you chaps insist on saying.)

The more the conservative right entrenches itself in doctrinaire readings of Scripture, the more the liberal left moves to its own extreme ... the censure of the Episcopal Church is a sign of this. I don't think it's a case of the rest of the world being 'behind' in its view on gay rights, etc (although there is an element of that), the more immediate issue is a global communion does not want to see itself hijacked by a segment of that communion which is trying to make a political mark against its local domestic opponents.
 
... there is no such thing as a non-religious experience...
LOL, steady! I would have thought only if the term 'religion' is reduced to the anodyne can that statement be made. I would have thought what determines the experience as 'religious' or not is the religious sensibility of the experiencer. Two people can delight in the same thing, one sees through the veil, one sees the surface ... one is a religious experience, one isn't.

And I think many atheists would take issue with the idea that all experience is religious experience!

Too often it is thought that a religious experience must be something dramatic and profound.
Oh agreed, but I think that's the product of 'consumerism in the West, especially in the US where religious freedom allows for commercial marketing. A surprising number of American denominations started life as commercial enterprises. In the post-hippy west, we have the like of Campbell's 'follow your bliss', etc.

Authentic 'religious experience' is utterly profound, but often un-dramatic. As the Zen say, 'before Enlightenment ... after Enlightenment ...' nothing appears to have changed, but the cosmos has shifted on its axis. It's contemporary consumers who chase 'religious experience' in much the same way they'd pursue any novel sensation. If you listen to the commentaries of the Traditions, they all point to 'the dramatic' as being the ego, the individual psyche, nothing more. It's those who want a bang for their buck who're looking for 'experience'.

But with an ultimate basis of reality ...
That rather depends where one determines the ultimate basis according to one's ontology. I'd say for the religious, whatever 'It' is, is the ultimate basis of reality. For others, atheists or those into scientism, it's the parameters of physics.

The skewed science debate is four-square in the empirical, if it cannot be empirically determined, it cannot be, and the corollary of that is that one day science will explain all religious phenomena ... again the product of materialism/consumerism which dominates the West.

I like how Paul Tillich described the religious content of people, places, events, things, etc. as those things that are transparent to the divine.
I would agree, but there are those whose vision is opaque or occluded.

Now this transparency is often felt in moving things like art, music, nature, literature, relationships, etc...
The religionist would discern between the transparency of the transcendent, or the transparency of the ego. Many claim to experience 'It', when actually they're experiencing themselves. This problem is highlighted when such people gather a following, their ego-myth becomes a self-perpetuation and self affirming mythology ...

... but I believe everything including the evil in the world says something about the divine dynamic in the creation and activity of reality.
Hmmm. Depends how. The determination of 'evil' is, in that sense, measured against the Divine, but is not a product of the Divine. The divine determines what is evil, and we have appropriated that term for ourselves ... so yes, but the Divine is not the source or cause of evil, if we're talking western notions of divinity, unless the divine is 'mad or bad', to paraphrase C.S. Lewis.
 
My bad. What is a scientist, defined according to the study that was taken - the group that was polled is the members of the American Association for the Advancement of Science. That organization.
It wasn't meant as a jab at you in particular, it is a severe undersight for many...
 
I have always thought American religiosity owes more to the negative aspects of the Old Testament than anything else. God is the sheriff that rides into town; the secret desire that He will turn up and 'Kick Arse' (or 'ass', as you chaps insist on saying.)

Yep. I am told it stems from the predominantly Puritanistic attitude of the original European settlers to the new world. Take that as you will.

This current attitude in America does affect the world as well though. I'm terrified that some religious nutsoid who believes in the rapture will make it to the Presidency. Too many of these people believe humans are responsible for making the rapture happen, and a delusional President could in theory start conflicts around the world to make it a reality.

It is a fact that George W sincerely believed he was doing God's work in determining what course of actions he took. He is directly responsible for destabilizing Iraq & Syria to the point that ISIS could take hold. So this is not idle speculation I am suggesting here.
 
there is no such thing as a non-religious experience

Sorry gents, gotta call you out on this. Everything is a religious experience only if that is your personal definition of experience. Which is not a definition I can find anywhere else. Not that I don't understand your meaning. If one views reality through a religious glass, then all experience is defined by that glass. And there is nothing wrong with that. I'm just stating that this is a personal definition; the blanket statement quoted above can not be made to include everyone.

Two people can delight in the same thing, one sees through the veil, one sees the surface ... one is a religious experience, one isn't.

Uh no. Two people can delight in the same thing and both sees through the veil, yet one person's experience is religious while the second person's experience is not. Seeing through the 'veil' is an insightful experience; it does not require religion to experience it!
 
Yep. I am told it stems from the predominantly Puritanistic attitude of the original European settlers to the new world. Take that as you will.
I think you're right. There is sometimes a belief that the settlers came with religious tolerance, in fact it was quite the opposite. They left Europe because it was too liberal!

This current attitude in America does affect the world as well though.
Oh indeed. We watch with trepidation.

It is a fact that George W sincerely believed he was doing God's work in determining what course of actions he took. He is directly responsible for destabilizing Iraq & Syria to the point that ISIS could take hold. So this is not idle speculation I am suggesting here.
No argument there. Our PM Tony Blair was exactly the same. When confronted with the fact that he lied to the electorate to win support for the war in Kuwait, he justified it because he believed it was the right thing to do. This is what I mean by the 'Philosophy of Relativism' that Benedict XVI was so outspoken about. In effect, a 'wrong' becomes a 'right' if one believes one's doing the right thing, or ends justify the means. Truth becomes second to personal narrative.

It's the mantra of those who seek power, and Tony Blair was all for it, or more accurately, the money. When a PM steps down, there is a long-standing tradition on how he withdraws from parliament. There is a 'back-door' option for a fast getaway in the face of scandal, etc. Tony Blair took the fast exit because he was desperate to get across the pond and set up his foundation so he could become a multi-millionaire on the back of his support for US foreign policy. You know the book/film 'The Ghostwriter' which suggests an English PM was recruited as an 'agent of influence' by the CIA? He's it. Nothing so heroic as a recruitment, simply the offer of big money ...
 
Uh no. Two people can delight in the same thing and both sees through the veil, yet one person's experience is religious while the second person's experience is not. Seeing through the 'veil' is an insightful experience; it does not require religion to experience it!
I was using the veil in a religious sense. It's a question of ontology again ...
 
LOL, steady! I would have thought only if the term 'religion' is reduced to the anodyne can that statement be made. I would have thought what determines the experience as 'religious' or not is the religious sensibility of the experiencer. Two people can delight in the same thing, one sees through the veil, one sees the surface ... one is a religious experience, one isn't.

And I think many atheists would take issue with the idea that all experience is religious experience!

Sorry gents, gotta call you out on this. Everything is a religious experience only if that is your personal definition of experience. Which is not a definition I can find anywhere else. Not that I don't understand your meaning. If one views reality through a religious glass, then all experience is defined by that glass. And there is nothing wrong with that. I'm just stating that this is a personal definition; the blanket statement quoted above can not be made to include everyone.

Here's what I said:
And even more, in my view, for those who believe there is an ultimately meaning-full basis for reality, there is no such thing as a non-religious experience, including in science. Too often it is thought that a religious experience must be something dramatic and profound. But with an ultimate basis of reality, then anything, if thought about, reveals something about the creation, activity, and purpose for life.

I said, "in my view", and "for those who believe there is an ultimately meaning-full basis for reality". So atheists would be excluded. Now certainly an experience need not be considered religious by a person so maybe I overreached. However, if an experience says something about the divine, I would say it is potentially a religious experience. So if the divine created this reality and may be present, then any experience has potential religious import.

Authentic 'religious experience' is utterly profound, but often un-dramatic. As the Zen say, 'before Enlightenment ... after Enlightenment ...' nothing appears to have changed, but the cosmos has shifted on its axis. It's contemporary consumers who chase 'religious experience' in much the same way they'd pursue any novel sensation. If you listen to the commentaries of the Traditions, they all point to 'the dramatic' as being the ego, the individual psyche, nothing more. It's those who want a bang for their buck who're looking for 'experience'.

Certainly a religious experience can be profound or axis shifting but I think that is an unnecessary limitation. I remember a woman talking in a group where she lamented that she had never had a religious experience. It seems in her mind, she had never had such a profound, striking experience. In literature or in person we hear descriptions of religious experiences that seem to narrow their scope. To me it would be a shame that sensing or communing with the divine would be considered so limited. Why couldn't discovering quantum mechanics be considered a religious experience. I believe Einstein said something like he wanted to know the thoughts of God.
 
Ah the old Einstein statement. This has been used over and over and over again to try and make as if Einstein believed in some form of God, or at the least some form of higher being. In point of fact Einstein never believed that. He made this plain in a letter he wrote about a year before his death in which he said:

The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weakness, the Bible a collection of honorable, but still purely primitive, legends which are nevertheless pretty childish. No interpretation, no matter how subtle, can change this for me.

Read more at http://www.inquisitr.com/1538169/wa...d-his-final-words-on-god/#v1wg8WtbJzlwPL42.99
 
Ah the old Einstein statement. This has been used over and over and over again to try and make as if Einstein believed in some form of God, or at the least some form of higher being. In point of fact Einstein never believed that. He made this plain in a letter he wrote about a year before his death in which he said:

The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weakness, the Bible a collection of honorable, but still purely primitive, legends which are nevertheless pretty childish. No interpretation, no matter how subtle, can change this for me.

Read more at http://www.inquisitr.com/1538169/wa...d-his-final-words-on-god/#v1wg8WtbJzlwPL42.99
But he is writing about holy text, not God.
 
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