Why Do We Trust Ancient Texts as Accurate?

However, if an experience says something about the divine, I would say it is potentially a religious experience. So if the divine created this reality and may be present, then any experience has potential religious import.
Ah, a subtle distinction, but I agree. Blake speaks of it in 'Augeries of Innocence'.

Certainly a religious experience can be profound or axis shifting but I think that is an unnecessary limitation.
Then I think either you're misreading the account, or it's not an authentic religious experience. Authentic experience opens up, not closes down.

As I've said, the consumer West pursues 'experience', and the idea of non-experience is beyond most people, but that is where it's at. That's why people don't get 'faith', and don't comprehend the 'dark knowing', the inner conviction that informs the soul but transcends the faculties so there is no 'experience' in the common sense of the word. True, there can be an over-spill and one can hear, see, smell, etc, but these are all side-effects of a more profound happening 'below the surface' ... so many can have that same 'below the surface' going on, but 'experience' as such.

I remember a woman talking in a group where she lamented that she had never had a religious experience.
Some don't. Maybe she didn't get it.

In literature or in person we hear descriptions of religious experiences that seem to narrow their scope.
I think they're talking of a particular order of experience. They're not setting up limitations.

To me it would be a shame that sensing or communing with the divine would be considered so limited.
Again, I have no idea of what order of limited experience you're talking about.

Why couldn't discovering quantum mechanics be considered a religious experience.
It can if you believe God is behind quantum mechanics, but qm is not evidence of God, unless you believe in God. If you believe in the Divine, it can be anything. Cardinal Avery Dulles experienced his epiphany watching a rose bloom, Kalistos Ware experienced his listening to a choir. The author of 'Meditations on the Tarot' had his looking at a stained glass window ... all mundane events really, but for the person experiencing the event, sublime.

But the rose, the choir, the window, whatever the 'sensory experience' or indeed the 'intellectual appreciation', they are just the medium of a religious inspiration (as in in-spire or in-dwelling), so in that sense I don't see any limitation, rather an opening out. The only limitation I see is in not allowing the possibility in the first place.

But it must be understood that the 'point' of religion is not 'experience'. That's the consumer view.
 
The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weakness...



He is?

Einstein was a complex individual. From his statements it is hard to discern what exactly he believed about God. And like other people maybe he vacillated in his beliefs. Certainly he didn't believe in a personal God. And clearly he didn't think much of organized religion. But at times he does seem to allude to some sort of ultimate intentional basis for reality.

My religiosity consists in a humble admiration of the infinitely superior spirit that reveals itself in the little that we, with our weak and transitory understanding, can comprehend of reality.
 
Tea, He isn't writing about God????? Please re-read.

"The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weakness...."

He then goes on to make a statement about the Bible itself, which he expresses as primitive legends that are childish. They are two separate statements.
 
I really don't know how to have this conversation, it's about language. The key here is that he specifies the word God, not that he doesn't believe in God, which would have been a shorter sentence is that was what he meant. So he specifically not against the idea of a god as defined [in some way that I don't know how because I can't read the old man's mind]. So he is against the word God as defined by the culture(s) he is talking about in this instance, which might very well be all of them.

So he is not an atheist (also clearly stated in other cases), he doesn't like the word, and what he doesn't like is really hard to tell without context.

So if a person would go about claiming what the man thought and felt about the divine they would need to show some reason for him not to just say "God is for me..." and also explain why he categorically placed himself as a non-atheist. I don't claim to know what he believed and I don't know why anyone else would even try.
 
I really don't know how to have this conversation, it's about language. The key here is that he specifies the word God,

Yes I understood what you were saying. I get the nuance. I think it is a reach to suggest that he was being that nuanced. The reason I think that is because I believe one has to take the entire statement as a whole to understand what he likely meant.

My interpretation is that if he wished to say he had any belief in some form of higher power, he would have made that statement. His comment on religious texts is certainly very clear. Why would he be vague in the first sentence and specific in the second. I am willing to agree that I could be wrong. I cannot claim to know for certain what he believed.

As far as why it matters, it only matters because people with agendas on both sides of the debate want to use Einstein to help prove their point of view is the correct one.
 
As far as why it matters, it only matters because people with agendas on both sides of the debate want to use Einstein to help prove their point of view is the correct one.
LOL. I can agree to some degree, but then for all he knows about physics doesn't really mean he knows anything about theology.
(I think he and Stephen Hawking have the same problem, they've becomes celebrities and can't resist a soundbite!)

Richard Dawkings wrote a very thick volume disproving the Christian God. A Christian philosopher wrote a very slim volume demonstrating the error that underpins his entire thesis. Dawkins may well be an excellent botanist, but he really hasn't got a handle on the philosophy of God.

Where I agree with you, the problem is celebrity. We seek endorsement.
 
but then for all he knows about physics doesn't really mean he knows anything about theology.

Quite. People want his opinion to count because he is considered one of the smartest people who ever lived. Therefor his opinion on every subject is considered relevant. His thoughts on theology are from a basis in science though, and we already know the answer to that line of thought.
 
in a slight way, I agree. If one believes their text is the word of an All-powerful, All-knowing God, then that in and of itself validates the stories in it to the person. It is then up to the person to understand what the words mean. The secondary sources are supposed to represent how it is understood and followed. If one asks a Muslim why we believe in a miracle, the only real answer is that it is mentioned in the Quran. We cannot see these occurrences, therefore we cannot confirm them, and theologically speaking we aren't supposed to. Miracles are things that can't be explained by the laws of this universe. They are meant as displays to the witnesses.

I consider the different religions to be the human view of Revelation in the times and culture the Revelation occurred. The more ancient a religion the less relevant and meaningful the religion is in today's world. The problems of the failure of ancient religions is they become causes of violence and divisions in the religion. Judaism, Christianity and Islam are examples of ancient religions that are no longer relevant in today's world.

Since the scripture of ancient religions were written in a different time and culture, the accuracy will always be a problem by human interpretation as time passes, and particularly in the modern context, which leads to violence and divisions.
 
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Hi there,
So which religions, if any, do you consider modern enough to not be tainted by their past?
Tainted kind loads the question. All religions are tainted by human fallibility, and the past we have inherited. I consider the Baha'i Faith (Theist) and Unitarian Universalism (Secular) to be two religions that are modern enough to functional. Ancient religions I consider disfunctional, burdened by ancient cultural paradigms, and an egocentric view of the nature of our spiritual existence.
 
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Tainted kind loads the question. All religions are tainted by human fallibility, and the past we have inherited. I consider the Baha'i Faith (Theist) and Unitarian Universalism (Secular) to be two religions that are modern enough to functional. Ancient religions I consider disfunctional, burdened by ancient cultural paradigms, and an egocentric view of the nature of our spiritual existence.
And yet the Bahai faith depends largely on the Quran, with an extra source of the teaching of their newer teacher. The UU largely bases their opinions off of liberal views of the Bible.

Above all this, I personally see a lot of common "Let's not discuss it" phrases, would you care to discuss what points of those religions you see as disfunctional or burdened by "cultural paradigms"? In Islam cultural differences are largely encouraged. There are some who push old Arab ways, but largely this is not the case. If you could explain what points exactly you have contention with. maybe we can discuss them. Be it any religion.
 
And yet the Bahai faith depends largely on the Quran, with an extra source of the teaching of their newer teacher.

This is a superficial description of the Baha'i Faith that needs more explanation. Yes the Baha'i Faith revealed more specific laws for the New Age such as the absolute forbidding all forms of slavery and indentured servitude, the declaration of equal social and legal rights for women, unconditional acceptance of science in harmony with religion, and mandatory education of all male and female children lacking in previous dispensations including Islam. The lack of specific modern spiritual laws have caused divisions in Christianity and Islam in the modern world. More to follow.

The UU largely bases their opinions off of liberal views of the Bible.
Actually this is misleading. UU evolved from more liberal Christianity and secular Deism of some of the founding fathers of the USA, but it is fundamentally based on humanism and the Humanist Manifestos, which are part of the creed.

Above all this, I personally see a lot of common "Let's not discuss it" phrases, would you care to discuss what points of those religions you see as disfunctional or burdened by "cultural paradigms"? In Islam cultural differences are largely encouraged. There are some who push old Arab ways, but largely this is not the case. If you could explain what points exactly you have contention with. maybe we can discuss them. Be it any religion.

Sure, divisions and ancient cultural beliefs have become issues in ancient religions. In Islam the Sunni Shi'ite division, often violent, has in my view made Islam disfuctional as far as being able to provide a unified leaderships in the modern world. 'Pushing old Arab ways,' cannot be simply hand waved, because the reality is that it is dominant in much of Islam, and divides Islam dominated by ancient cultural differences.

Consistency of belief and guidance from a universal perspective for the whole world is what I consider most important if a religion does in reality teach a universal perspective.
 
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But he is writing about holy text, not God.

Einstein made it clear in many writings he did not believe in God.
But he is writing about holy text, not God.

It is best to read more of the text as a whole from the letter

[cite=[URL]http://deadstate.org/think-einstein-believed-in-god-you-probably-havent-read-this-letter-he-wrote-in-1954/][/URL]
"The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honorable, but still primitive legends which are nevertheless pretty childish. No interpretation no matter how subtle can [for me] change this. These subtilized interpretations are highly manifold according to their nature and have almost nothing to do with the original text. For me the Jewish religion like all other religions is an incarnation of the most childish superstitions. And the Jewish people to whom I gladly belong and with whose mentality I have a deep affinity have no different quality for me than all other people. As far as my experience goes, they are also no better than other human groups, although they are protected from the worst cancers by a lack of power. Otherwise I cannot see anything ‘chosen’ about them.

In general I find it painful that you claim a privileged position and try to defend it by two walls of pride, an external one as a man and an internal one as a Jew. As a man you claim, so to speak, a dispensation from causality otherwise accepted, as a Jew the privilege of monotheism. But a limited causality is no longer a causality at all, as our wonderful Spinoza recognized with all incision, probably as the first one. And the animistic interpretations of the religions of nature are in principle not annulled by monopolization. With such walls we can only attain a certain self-deception, but our moral efforts are not furthered by them. On the contrary." [/cite]

Einstein did not claim specifically to be an atheist. In summary he was likely severely agnostic or maybe totally indifferent to the belief in God.He did describe his beliefs as close to Pantheism, which on the surface is a form of atheism, because the universe physically becomes God. Other quotes compared Nature to God.
 
I see egocentrism as one of the fundamental reasons why people cannot see ancient religions for what they are, and moreover prevent contemporary western man to get a grip on the value of spiritual disciplines. Virtues such as detachment and humility, a sense of obligation and gratitude – are almost anathema to the philosophy of relativism that is the ruling mindset of the present era.

Again, as I have stated elsewhere, the radical failure to distinguish, or even discern, the difference between psyche and pneuma has much to do with the incomprehension with which people view ancient texts.
 
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I consider the different religions to be the human view of Revelation in the times and culture the Revelation occurred.
They can't be anything other.

The more ancient a religion the less relevant and meaningful the religion is in today's world.
Why? The problems haven't changed, nor have the solutions. I fail to see why 'love' or 'compassion' are irrelevant? The Tao? The Four Noble Truths of Buddhism?

The core of religions address the Absolute and the Infinite, and as such address the timeless, the eternal and the transcendent, so in that sense are not subject to time and circumstance, fad and fashion.

The problems of the failure of ancient religions is they become causes of violence and divisions in the religion.
No. The problem rather lies with man, who seems incapable or unwilling to embrace the teachings of the ancient religions. The twentieth century was the most violent in human history, and the major conflicts, holocausts and purges were not motivated by religious but political zeal.

Judaism, Christianity and Islam are examples of ancient religions that are no longer relevant in today's world.
Only to the degree that the modern world has moved away from the principles of humanity contained within those traditions and settled, in my opinion, for far less, for the fashionable, the novel, the ephemeral and the ego.

Indeed, the commentators of the Hindu metaphysical traditions see this process as falling within the 'end times' of any culture, when all that is peripheral is 'used up' in an orgy of excess, much as, physically, the excesses of western culture has 'used up' the planet's resources to the point of exhaustion.

What is telling is that man continues to look for a 'magic bullet' – rather than learn the lesson, that his lifestyle is unsustainable, he relies on science and other endeavours to enable him to continue in the profligate lifestyle. And God help anyone who wonders how it can be justified that the few can enjoy themselves at the expense of the many.

Since the scripture of ancient religions were written in a different time and culture, the accuracy will always be a problem by human interpretation as time passes...
That is no reason to give up.

The Bible, for example,on the one hand expresses complex truths regarding God and man in a language that is indirect and full of imagery, on the other neither its source nor its object is the empirical, which is the only reality modernity concerns itself with 9outside of its own self-gratification, which is itself illusory).

The language of the world's sacra doctrina transcends these planes, and is accessible through the intellective and mystical center of man's being, or through the “heart,” or pure “intellect”, if one prefers.

The 'classical' prejudice of scientism, or rather the fault in its methodology, is that it denies anything outside of its own remit on the basis that if it can't see it, it can't exist, which is easily dismissed.
 
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Virtues such as detachment and humility, a sense of obligation and gratitude – are almost anathema to the philosophy of relativism that is the ruling mindset of the present era.
I so very clearly see your point, but I think you are talking about a specific, but prevalent, philosophy of relativism. I don't think relativism in itself excludes those virtues.
 
They can't be anything other.

This an important conclusion, and the reason why no single religion, particularly ancient religions fail to provide a universal message throughout time. The spiritual nature of the human nature evolves past ancient worldviews.


Why? The problems haven't changed, nor have the solutions. I fail to see why 'love' or 'compassion' are irrelevant? The Tao? The Four Noble Truths of Buddhism?

First, I believe the problems have changed. Since the 18th and and 19th centuries we have moved into a world where the relative isolation of cultures and individual religions no longer address the evolving spiritual nature of humanity that is becoming one.

Yes, love and compassion as well as the Golden Rule are universal, and remain at the heart of the spiritual human nature. Unfortunately this universal nature is not generally recognized by the individual ancient religions of the world where their spiritual sense of community is defined only by their own religion.

The core of religions address the Absolute and the Infinite, and as such address the timeless, the eternal and the transcendent, so in that sense are not subject to time and circumstance, fad and fashion.

This only applies to the ultimate nature of existence as defined by the individual religions and not outside the sense of community to other religions. The general rule between between religions is degrees of 'tolerance and intolerance' to deal with others who believe differently. One must not need to tolerate others if they do not believe in them as different.


No. The problem rather lies with man, who seems incapable or unwilling to embrace the teachings of the ancient religions. The twentieth century was the most violent in human history, and the major conflicts, holocausts and purges were not motivated by religious but political zeal.

The problem has always been fallible humanity regardless of what one believes, and what ancient or modern belief system one has. Unfortunately most people of the world do embrace the teachings of ancient religions.

The twentieth century is only more violent based on the scale of violence, and the confrontation between religions and cultures that were once relatively separate, because of the much greater population involved. The violence in human relations has been at times extremely violent in the past just has it has been in the twentieth century. In conflicts and wars it was extremely common to completely exterminate the enemy including the women and children. Those that were not exterminated were inslaved for life.

Only to the degree that the modern world has moved away from the principles of humanity contained within those traditions and settled, in my opinion, for far less, for the fashionable, the novel, the ephemeral and the ego.

This tends to be a scapegoat view of those that believe differently. Much of what is contained in ancient religions and world views, but not all, is worthy of rejection, because they do pretty much apply to a limited ancient cultural paradigm. The problem of what is fashionable, novel, ephemeral and of course the ego is an always problem with fallible humans regardless of what one chooses as their belief system, ancient or new.

Indeed, the commentators of the Hindu metaphysical traditions see this process as falling within the 'end times' of any culture, when all that is peripheral is 'used up' in an orgy of excess, much as, physically, the excesses of western culture has 'used up' the planet's resources to the point of exhaustion.

ok

What is telling is that man continues to look for a 'magic bullet' – rather than learn the lesson, that his lifestyle is unsustainable, he relies on science and other endeavours to enable him to continue in the profligate lifestyle. And God help anyone who wonders how it can be justified that the few can enjoy themselves at the expense of the many.

Unfortunately the 'magic bullet.' Holy Grail,' and the 'potion of eternal youth,' are indeed illusions of the ego, but nothing like that is proposed here. Neither is the problem of the comfort of the few at the expense of the many, is another common feature of the ego of the fallible human.


That is no reason to give up.

I have not proposed giving up, but putting the scriptures in the reality of their context of their culture and time. My view is to embrace a more universal view placing the different religions of the world in the context of the spiritual evolution of humanity and the wisdom of all the religions.

The Bible, for example,on the one hand expresses complex truths regarding God and man in a language that is indirect and full of imagery, on the other neither its source nor its object is the empirical, which is the only reality modernity concerns itself with outside of its own self-gratification, which is itself illusory).

I view the Bible as the knowledge and beliefs of the people at the time, nothing more. 'Truth' is too much of an illusive quest, and I will relegate that to vain desires of the ego.

The language of the world's sacra doctrina transcends these planes, and is accessible through the intellective and mystical center of man's being, or through the “heart,” or pure “intellect”, if one prefers.

Maybe, but this is an illusive claim.

The 'classical' prejudice of scientism, or rather the fault in its methodology, is that it denies anything outside of its own remit on the basis that if it can't see it, it can't exist, which is easily dismissed.

This is an unnecessary negative generalizing view of science. I am, for your information. a scientist (Geologist, Soil Scientist, and Hydrologist) Scientism is one of those unfortunate stone words used to throw at people and build walls. The foundation of science is 'Methodological Naturalism,' which by its nature is neutral to any metapyhsical claims and beliefs, because scientific methods cannot falsify anything other than what can be objectively proposed in theories and hypotheisis. This unfortunate view you proposed is related to ancient world views that needs to be rejected. There are scientist that claim to be Ontological Naturalists, or atheists/agnostics like Einstein and the extreme views of Dawkins, but this represents a philosophical assumption and not based on Methodological Naturalism. Actually the scientific work and research of even the most radical of atheist scientist is indifferent to their philosophical nor religious beliefs, because their work must pass the peer review test of Methodological Naturalists.
 
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This an important conclusion, and the reason why no single religion, particularly ancient religions fail to provide a universal message throughout time. The spiritual nature of the human nature evolves past ancient worldviews.
I'm afraid I have to disagree on both counts. I think the metaphysical systems of the Great Traditions speak for themselves in that regard. They don't need me to champion them.

First, I believe the problems have changed. Since the 18th and and 19th centuries we have moved into a world where the relative isolation of cultures and individual religions no longer address the evolving spiritual nature of humanity that is becoming one.
As I said, I regard the essence of religion as transcending time and place, although obviously are expressed in time and place ... the art is to see through the veils.

Yes, love and compassion as well as the Golden Rule are universal, and remain at the heart of the spiritual human nature.
There you go then.

Unfortunately this universal nature is not generally recognized by the individual ancient religions ...
Oh, they are. I could direct you to ancient texts that do just that. Indeed, Paul Ricoeur offers a commentary on man – his Time and Narrative – that is founded in and on Aristotle and Augustine. I'm sure the same insights are there in the commentaries of the Great Traditions.

The general rule between between religions is degrees of 'tolerance and intolerance' to deal with others who believe differently.
Where there is fault, it's man, not the religion. Faced with the current migrant crisis in Europe, I see precious little evidence of a humanity becoming one. I think this stands to be a chimera of the late 20thC. The leading nations have shown no inclination to regard the world as one ...

The twentieth century is only more violent based on the scale of violence, and the confrontation between religions and cultures that were once relatively separate...
What the 20thC demonstrates is a propensity to violence that has nothing to do with religious affiliation, therefore religion in itself is not the source of the problem.

I have not proposed giving up, but putting the scriptures in the reality of their context of their culture and time. My view is to embrace a more universal view placing the different religions of the world in the context of the spiritual evolution of humanity and the wisdom of all the religions.
I do put them in their cultural context, but I can also see their universal aspects. Also that there is nothing 'new' that cannot be found to be in the Great Traditions' texts and commentaries.

(I tend to think the 'spiritual evolution of humanity' is a 20th century invention, largely syncretic, largely artificial, and fundamentally political – it's a linear reading of history which is increasingly being shown by science to be not quite accurate.)

I can't think of any spiritual doctrine that is not present in the ancient traditions. Rather, most if not all contemporary spiritual teachings take from the ancient traditions.

I view the Bible as the knowledge and beliefs of the people at the time, nothing more. 'Truth' is too much of an illusive quest, and I will relegate that to vain desires of the ego.
OK. I would have thought you're wasting your time here then?

Maybe, but this is an illusive claim.
Can you prove that?

To clarify:
My use of the word 'scientism' refers to those who erroneously believe that science will explain away religion. The contrary is those who evidence the worst cases of religious intolerance, bigotry etc,. as if that invalidates religion. This is a nonsense, but it's one of the most-often deployed arguments by atheists today. I get it all the time.

Good science of course does no such thing. It stays within its stated axioms. My 'unfortunate view' is not at all related to ancient world views, but to the ill-informed or assumptive arguments I hear on a regular basis. They're as evident today as ever they were. I am not against science, as long as it recognises its sphere of activity. Indeed, as there are some outstanding scientists who hold religious beliefs, so the whole science v religion thing is a nonsense. 'Scientism' is equivalent to religious fundamentalism.
 
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