The Abrahamic Get-Out-Of-Jail-Free Card?

[Elfiet]

One can knowingly misbehave their entire life, knowing as long as they truly repent at the end, it is all wiped clean as if it never happened. There seems little motivation to keep on the true path if this is so.

I think of this in comparison to an alcoholic. The longer and more you drink the harder it is to get sober. If you sin/misbehave your entire life, the harder it is to connect to the One to grant your forgiveness. The separation is too great.

 

[Thomas]

Hi Elfiet —

I read this as a person needs to receive miraculous forgiveness to be 'free' from the past deed. Meaning, true repentance and healing in the thoughts (mind).

It is beginning to dawn on me that true healing is a whole-body thing. Like muscles have 'memory' and the physiology can pattern as a result of events, I think there is an area of physical healing — and I don't mean like a broken leg mending or a cut healing over — that is beyond mental healing.

I remember listening to Roseanne Barr, talking about the abuse she suffered as a child. She said mentally she has come to terms with what happened, but emotionally it becomes 'real' and she's right back there, reliving her childhood self — so the mental healing is one thing, but it is not all-encompassing.

I can remember my sisters 21st birthday, a landmark in my teen years, but cook up the breakfast she served the next morning and I am right there. My sense of smell triggers a lot stronger memory than my memory ...

Connecting spiritually is the only way to accomplish this.

Agreed, but then I am increasingly critical of those who pursue 'the path of spiritual enlightenment' — most of it is pure self-serving egoism, self-aggrandisement, self-delusion. It's consumer spirituality ... If one wants to be truly spiritual, try putting oneself out of the picture and serving one's neighbour, or putting oneself out of the picture and serving God in whatever traditional form one can engage with.

Look at Scripture, and the people whom Christ praises for their faith and their closeness to God: the publican, the widow at the temple, the centurion ... any 'spiritual masters' on the list? Nope. Any spiritual practitioners? Nope.

Look at the Beatitudes. Look at Matthew 25 — who are 'the blessed of God'? "For I was hungry, and you gave me to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave me to drink; I was a stranger, and you took me in: Naked, and you covered me: sick, and you visited me: I was in prison, and you came to me." (v35-36)

Where is the spiritual practice? That is the spiritual practice. It's caring for one's neighbour ...

All the 'technique' is a discipline to get you to the start line, to get you to the point you're fit to even begin ... whereas it has evolved a 'mystique' and has become something in itself ...

The more I contemplate Christianity, the tougher it becomes.

 

[Tumah]

In Judaism "I'll sin and [later] I'll repent" is one of four cases where G-d does not give the person an opportunity to repent.
Aside from the fact that repentance only helps with sins between man and G-d, not between man and his friend. That requires forgiveness on the part of the injured party to be absolved from.

 

[Thomas]

In Judaism "I'll sin and [later] I'll repent" is one of four cases where G-d does not give the person an opportunity to repent.

LOL, yeah! My advice – don't even think about trying to out-smart God ...

 

[Amica2]

Joe said in another thread "Not unless it (punishment) is undeserved. An authority of good judiciousness wouldn't cause harm to those who didn't deserve it, but to those who did, they would receive it. There is no good in letting a mass murderer free out of pity. it just doesn't work. A judge must be willing to help those that deserve it, and punish those who transgress the limits."

Which brings up a question I have long pondered and his words are as good as any to introduce the topic. Now I do not know how it works in Islam but in Christianity there seems to be a loophole to being bad that let's a bad person off the hook.

As is usual when it comes to the Abrahamics, what I am discussing is probably not accurate, but here it goes.

According to my understanding of the Christian tradition a person can do bad things their entire life. If they seek repentance, truly desire it on their death bed, they can be absolved of their sins and they get to take the UP escalator.

Is this accurate? IF it is, it strikes me as a significant loophole in the tradition. One can knowingly misbehave their entire life, knowing as long as they truly repent at the end, it is all wiped clean as if it never happened. There seems little motivation to keep on the true path if this is so.

Is this also true of Islam?

No, in Islam one is given many chances to repent but God says in the Qur'an that waiting last minute is not going to mean that you are all forgiven. In fact, the drowned Pharaoh is said to had pleaded in the moment of death but it was useless.

 

[wil]

The more I contemplate Christianity, the tougher it becomes

Aint that the truth...

I'd add the adverb metaphysical in my case.

 

[oroborousDragon]

Joe said in another thread "Not unless it (punishment) is undeserved. An authority of good judiciousness wouldn't cause harm to those who didn't deserve it, but to those who did, they would receive it. There is no good in letting a mass murderer free out of pity. it just doesn't work. A judge must be willing to help those that deserve it, and punish those who transgress the limits."

Which brings up a question I have long pondered and his words are as good as any to introduce the topic. Now I do not know how it works in Islam but in Christianity there seems to be a loophole to being bad that let's a bad person off the hook.

As is usual when it comes to the Abrahamics, what I am discussing is probably not accurate, but here it goes.

According to my understanding of the Christian tradition a person can do bad things their entire life. If they seek repentance, truly desire it on their death bed, they can be absolved of their sins and they get to take the UP escalator.

Is this accurate? IF it is, it strikes me as a significant loophole in the tradition. One can knowingly misbehave their entire life, knowing as long as they truly repent at the end, it is all wiped clean as if it never happened. There seems little motivation to keep on the true path if this is so.

Is this also true of Islam?

It seems that way to me, but you got to consider that's the same "god" who flooded the world and said "oops" sure in more words, but that's it. He didn't go to hell for a bit to show he was truly sorry...but you know who he did throw in hell? Lucifer, the angel that...wait what did he do to get kicked out...oh right he was prideful, and somehow "god" isn't despite the claims that he's "all powerful, and all present and all knowing (not to mention "all loving" bah as if...says the god that kills) I'm not a follower as you can tell, Christans did some bad things...here it goes, The same "god" that said "thou shall not kill" ordered the killing of non believers...which at the time were pagans, and pagans did witchcraft (which isn't evil for it's healing...) and they were burned at the steak for such too. I don't get why though. Even if it is "the work of the devil" or whatever...you're telling me that he'd help heal? Must not be as evil as one would want to say, considering he provided healing, when "god" wouldn't...then there are Christians whining about Muslims "they say they're a religion of peace but look at what they're doing" pure karma

 

[A Cup Of Tea]

So...seems you have a lot of opinions to get of your chest. For a lizard looking for answers you sure are making a lot of statements!

 

[Thomas]

... that's the same "god" who flooded the world and said "oops" ...

LOL, really?

... and somehow "god" isn't despite the claims that he's "all powerful, and all present and all knowing ...

Well stating the truth is not necessarily pride, whereas pride is often self-delusion.

I'm not a follower as you can tell...

Sure can. Like most of the opinionated non-followers, your ignorance of basic metaphysics/philosophy is clearly evident.

 

[oroborousDragon]

LOL, really?


Well stating the truth is not necessarily pride, whereas pride is often self-delusion.


Sure can. Like most of the opinionated non-followers, your ignorance of basic metaphysics/philosophy is clearly evident.

Well Lucifer was making a mockery of "god" and also take a look at what "god" even said about humans...oh the irony.
Genesis 6:6 The LORD regretted that he had made human beings on the earth, and his heart was deeply troubled.
I'm laughing right now, I was looking for the part where he did his half attempt at an apology but I found a virgin...mmm

 

[Thomas]

Ah, the myopia.

I'm sorry, oroborousDragon, but really, if you're going to come into the Abrahamic boards on IO and dish it out, there's a good chance someone will dish it straight back.

The first chapters of Genesis are regarded by scholars as a Hebrew mythopeic commentary on the human condition and in that light are packed full of wisdom and insight. If you can't see that, don't blame Scripture. It was always understood it needs be read in the 'light' of informed commentary.

The account of the flood, Noah, etc., is far, far more sophisticated and metaphysically insightful than the Epic of Gilgamesh, another written account from a pre-history source.

But don't take our word for it. Ask a Buddhist or a Hindu scholar for example, about the Scriptures, and you'll hear them wax lyrical about its wisdom and insight and worth.

It's invariably fundamental atheists who fail to see it — those who cannot see beyond the literal; those who, because they can read, assume they understand what it is they're reading.

 

[muhammad_isa]

LOL, yeah! My advice – don't even think about trying to out-smart God ...

That is very good advice

God is a concept. Quoting the odd verse here & there from a scripture to "prove" some creed or other does not change anything.
He knows why an empire or nation might adopt a certain creed and oppress others.
God is NOT in need of our help to establish truth.

Why should God favour Christians over Jews, or Muslims over Jews, or Christians over Muslims etc?
There is no "get out of jail free card". It is not so much about WHAT we might believe as
to why we believe it

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

Joe said in another thread "Not unless it (punishment) is undeserved. An authority of good judiciousness wouldn't cause harm to those who didn't deserve it, but to those who did, they would receive it. There is no good in letting a mass murderer free out of pity. it just doesn't work. A judge must be willing to help those that deserve it, and punish those who transgress the limits."

Which brings up a question I have long pondered and his words are as good as any to introduce the topic. Now I do not know how it works in Islam but in Christianity there seems to be a loophole to being bad that let's a bad person off the hook.

As is usual when it comes to the Abrahamics, what I am discussing is probably not accurate, but here it goes.

According to my understanding of the Christian tradition a person can do bad things their entire life. If they seek repentance, truly desire it on their death bed, they can be absolved of their sins and they get to take the UP escalator.

Is this accurate? IF it is, it strikes me as a significant loophole in the tradition. One can knowingly misbehave their entire life, knowing as long as they truly repent at the end, it is all wiped clean as if it never happened. There seems little motivation to keep on the true path if this is so.

Is this also true of Islam?

I think it is true in all Faiths.

Only God mows our heart and if we did truly repent, or if it is inspired by self preservation.

This quote from the Baha'i Writings.

"My sole duty is to remind you of your failure in duty towards the Cause of God, if perchance ye may be of them that heed My warning. Wherefore, hearken ye unto My speech, and return ye to God and repent, that He, through His grace, may have mercy upon you, may wash away your sins, and forgive your trespasses. The greatness of His mercy surpasseth the fury of His wrath, and His grace encompasseth all who have been called into being and been clothed with the robe of life, be they of the past or of the future." Bahá’u’lláh, Gleanings from the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 130

It is never to late, we all do things we need to find repentance for and we can consider this quote as well, we can turn to God and ask;

" Verily Thou art the Ever-Forgiving, He to Whom repentance is due, He Who forgiveth even the most grievous of sins." ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, Selections from the Writings of ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, p. 233

Regards Tony

 

[muhammad_isa]

..it strikes me as a significant loophole in the tradition. One can knowingly misbehave their entire life, knowing as long as they truly repent at the end, it is all wiped clean as if it never happened. There seems little motivation to keep on the true path if this is so..

There's a problem. We don't know when we will die.
How do we know that there will be TIME for repentance?
One must also consider that "heaven" is not run by communists.
i.e. we are not all equal

Is a righteous scholar equal to a wicked ignoramus?

 

[muhammad_isa]

Almighty God is the Fairest of All Judges.
Nothing is "free". It's not easy for people to "go to heaven".

If it was so easy, we would all be there already

 

[muhammad_isa]

Many of the Prophets suffered as their duty was to convey truth to mankind.
That is because the truth does not suit everybody .. particularly those in a position of privilege.

Most people who go to "heaven" will be poor people. Those who are sincere and single-minded in their quest for truth.
Man's greatest obstacles are the love of wealth and women.

 

[Cino]

Almighty God is the Fairest of All Judges.
Nothing is "free". It's not easy for people to "go to heaven".

If it was so easy, we would all be there already

Most people who go to "heaven" will be poor people. Those who are sincere and single-minded in their quest for truth.
Man's greatest obstacles are the love of wealth and women.

Of course, when you put it like that, one obvious observation is that the rich and powerful encourage such views, "you may be poor and exploited in this life, but you can look forward to the next, you will make it to paradise! For now, hunker down and work your shift, obey your superiors, don't think of making enough money or having fun, your rewards are surely coming."

This is of course social critique, not spiritual. Just pointing out how easily such words get co-opted by those agains whom they were directed..

 

[muhammad_isa]

"..don't think of making enough money or having fun, your rewards are surely coming."

Nobody WANTS to be poor. Jesus, for example, was not teaching people they shouldn't work and enjoy God's blessings.
Being poor is a CONSEQUENCE of following truth.
The truth is that we should "wish for others what we wish for ourselves".
That is why we should not engage in usurious activity.

"heaven" is not just about what happens to the individual .. it is about what happens to the whole society.
It is not easy to become rich without disregarding others.

 

[Cino]

It is not easy to become rich without disregarding others.

But it is easy, and common, for the rich to pacify the poor with promises of a better afterlife.

 

[muhammad_isa]

But it is easy, and common, for the rich to pacify the poor with promises of a better afterlife.

Perhaps you'd like to give us an example?
Why should a believer take any notice of a rich man that has little chance of
entering the kingdom of God?

I would agree that people can be manipulated. That is why it is important
to have a good grasp of what the Prophets taught.

It is true that wars between mankind often occur. I personally don't see
that belief in an afterlife is the cause of wars. Many wars have occurred between
nations who BOTH believe in an afterlife.