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Cute. 
Resolving Ultimate and Conventional Truth
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Okay so let us deconstruct this statement.
The first half is stating there is nothing wrong with seeking spiritual counsel. Simple enough.
The second half is stating that a simple mathematical sum should not have to be questioned. Simple enough.
BUT. What on earth & in the heavens does the one have to do with the other????? And how do they answer the question of the thread???
I'm guessing you don't do well with Biblical Metaphors either, he shouted up at the classroom window as he lay on the ground below. You asked the same question in #77 which I addressed in #78. My original statement in #76 was in response to Thomas' comment, hence the quotation, not so much the question posed in the thread. Pay attention please. There's going to be a quiz on Monday!
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Oooookay. So the sum total of the statements involved in this little gordian knot are:
Thomas: And as it's clear the easiest person to delude is oneself ... hence the guru-disciple relationship that underpins all spiritual development.
NJ: There's nothing wrong with seeking spiritual counsel, so long as you're not denying the number 4 prior to asking the sum of 2+2.
Me: I don't understand what you are trying to say here. Would you expand?
NJ: Rejecting or doubting the likely response to a question before asking it.
Can we agree these are the pertinent statements in this little side discussion?
If your answer requires an understanding of biblical metaphor, no wonder I have no idea what you are talking about.
What you seem to be saying, far as I can tell, is that 'doubting the likely response' is the same whether the likely answer is a math equation or a spiritual question. Yes? No?
p.s. I'm really not trying to jerk your chain here, I just am not understanding you.
Thomas: And as it's clear the easiest person to delude is oneself ... hence the guru-disciple relationship that underpins all spiritual development.
NJ: There's nothing wrong with seeking spiritual counsel, so long as you're not denying the number 4 prior to asking the sum of 2+2.
Me: I don't understand what you are trying to say here. Would you expand?
NJ: Rejecting or doubting the likely response to a question before asking it.
Can we agree these are the pertinent statements in this little side discussion?
If your answer requires an understanding of biblical metaphor, no wonder I have no idea what you are talking about.
What you seem to be saying, far as I can tell, is that 'doubting the likely response' is the same whether the likely answer is a math equation or a spiritual question. Yes? No?
p.s. I'm really not trying to jerk your chain here, I just am not understanding you.
I did suspect as much. May be the crux of the problem.
Ok, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt on this one and assume you really don't understand and that you really do want to.
You just need to pay closer attention to the post I was replying to. Not what I literally said in my post. Thomas spoke of the guru-disciple relationship right and how that underpins spiritual development? Now what chance for spiritual development would there be if the disciple denied the existence of God going in? About as much chance as someone not believing in the number 4 has understanding math. He ain't getting past 2+2 my friend.
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Aussie Thoughts
Just my 2 cents
LOL..!!! Thanks mate. After the week I just had I needed a good laugh!
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Thank you. I do not see the world thru the eyes of a Christian so I really do desire to understand what it is you are trying to say. I may not agree with another person's opinion; I do my best to understand their position though. To see thru their eyes as it were.
Aha! Now I do understand what you were trying to say. In the Christian perspective from which your thoughts spring, the two examples do make sense together.
If one is to accept mathematics as genuine one cannot deny that 2+2=4. If one is going to accept a Christian guru one cannot deny the existence of God. To do otherwise in either example would be an exercise in futility.
Yes? I hope?!?
Almost. Just one small correction. I speak simply as a believer in God. Not strictly as a Christian. My beliefs, though strong, fall outside of traditional Christian/Hindu thinking, but that's a whole different can-o-worms.
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Completely irrelevant piece of information. Consensus is that the phrase 'opening a can of worms' first came into usage in 1950s America. Many fishermen have always preferred live bait and at the time you could literally buy a sealed metal can full of worms. The problem was once you opened the can your bait tended to climb out and wander around. And heaven help the poor sot who tipped the can over and worms scattered everywhere. Thus making ones life much more complicated than it needed to be.
observation of the past vs current...
We are in the most peaceful, safest, most progressive an conscientious time in all of human evolution...
The Bible starts with Cain killing off 25% of the population....and numerous stories of genocide...and our knowledge of history, atrocities, mutilations, tortures continues through this day...and while this violence and more including poverty and starvation continues... It is affecting a smaller percentage with every century we move forward....
There is no koan
I think there's a lot of folks of colour in the US who might dispute that ... and you're about to deliver your country into the hands of Trump, so don't be too quick to talk about 'progressive' and 'conscientious' ...
Take the current Middle East situation, 30,000 kids dying each day in Africa, etc., etc... where is all the conscientious activity there?
I see no great movement to solve the problems, do you? I mean, one day's spend in the last gulf war would buy a mosquito net for every affected family ... yet I don't see that happening anytime soon.
To be frank, I think we're more mindful of our own comforts than ever, and we discreetly ignore the discomfort of others.
LOL, really? You're founding your argument on a myth?
Genocides are not a constant in history though. And we've had a few in recent times, so we can't really say it's ceased happening. By carefully not looking too close in certain areas ... at best we're living in a gap between events, that's all.
It is fair to say that the quality of life of a particular social set has drastically improved. The baby-boomer generation has profited most, but for their offspring the quality of life scale has begun to decline. So I think there's a rude awakening ahead ...
A planet with increasing population, dwindling resources, wealth concentrated in the hands of a very few — 1% of the population owns more than 50% of its wealth, which has never been the case before. The poverty gap is growing, it's just removed from your local experience.
And we know we're facing various environmental/ecological crises, but we choose to ignore them.
I think we're experiencing the blip, or a peak in the sine wave. We're riding the crest, but all waves break in the end ...
There is a less.percentage in poverty than ever, there are fewer dying of war and starvation and famine then ever.
Yes blacks in our country have issues with police and others...Mbit nothing compared to the first 200 years of this country and before.
Sure we have work to do....but it has never been better.
There is a difference... And you know it..
Yes blacks in our country have issues with police and others...Mbit nothing compared to the first 200 years of this country and before.
Sure we have work to do....but it has never been better.
There is a difference... And you know it..
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Was writing this before Thomas posted, to there is some overlap.
What is that phrase all stock advisors quote? Past performance is not necessarily indicative of future results. Yes it is clear that the trends during the 20th century have been to the better as time has gone on. The 20th century is a tiny proportion of the life of civilization. It has been difficult to find comparisons of timelines over hundreds or even better thousands of years.
There is a very real possibility that all these wonderful trends are about to take a massive shift; and not for the better. We are facing a moment in the history of humanity that I do not believe has been seen for a very, very long time. Populations are exploding. The percentage of populations looking to take advantage of the perks Western industrialized nations have taken for granted the past century is growing exponentially. A greater and greater percent of the planet's population want the life we have. It is not possible for all these new people to gain the level of conveniences that we have. It is unsustainable.
We are also moving into a particularly difficult time environmentally. Fresh water, which has almost always been in great abundance for most of the industrialized world is suddenly starting to become a scarce commodity. There could very well be wars over water supplies. Global warming is destabilizing the ability for humans to easily survive. Crop growth is in danger of stalling. Sea levels are already affecting coastal areas and this will only get worse.
Not to mention the possibilities that no one really knows about yet. The retreat of the glaciers and ice flows in the poles is dumping huge quantities of fresh water into the ocean, altering salinity. The same is lowering ocean temperatures, with equally unknown but potentially disastrous effects.
All our gains this past century or two could so easily be wiped away. There is no reason to believe that going forward will always be moving for the better. Past performance is not necessarily indicative of future results.
What is that phrase all stock advisors quote? Past performance is not necessarily indicative of future results. Yes it is clear that the trends during the 20th century have been to the better as time has gone on. The 20th century is a tiny proportion of the life of civilization. It has been difficult to find comparisons of timelines over hundreds or even better thousands of years.
There is a very real possibility that all these wonderful trends are about to take a massive shift; and not for the better. We are facing a moment in the history of humanity that I do not believe has been seen for a very, very long time. Populations are exploding. The percentage of populations looking to take advantage of the perks Western industrialized nations have taken for granted the past century is growing exponentially. A greater and greater percent of the planet's population want the life we have. It is not possible for all these new people to gain the level of conveniences that we have. It is unsustainable.
We are also moving into a particularly difficult time environmentally. Fresh water, which has almost always been in great abundance for most of the industrialized world is suddenly starting to become a scarce commodity. There could very well be wars over water supplies. Global warming is destabilizing the ability for humans to easily survive. Crop growth is in danger of stalling. Sea levels are already affecting coastal areas and this will only get worse.
Not to mention the possibilities that no one really knows about yet. The retreat of the glaciers and ice flows in the poles is dumping huge quantities of fresh water into the ocean, altering salinity. The same is lowering ocean temperatures, with equally unknown but potentially disastrous effects.
All our gains this past century or two could so easily be wiped away. There is no reason to believe that going forward will always be moving for the better. Past performance is not necessarily indicative of future results.