Can we know for certain anything about God and what he plans for us?

[Namaste Jesus]

You don't think there could be psychological torment on the level of abuse?

Absolutely! Personally, I think psychological and emotional torment is the worst and most devastating kind of abuse. Far more difficult treat or reverse.

 

[Devils' Advocate]

If untampered with, what happens to our bodies when we die? Through a gradual putrefaction process our once living tissue decays and breaks down to it's base elements. Essentially, dirt. Is it really that far a stretch to believe God could reverse the process?

I think it is. The first is a simple biological breakdown process that repurposes the material that makes up our physical body. Nothing far fetched about that.

The second is a magical being applying laws outside of physics that rule this reality to create life where there was none before. Even if one accepts for the sake of discussion that a God could do that, it still is unreasonable to say the two processes are in any way comparable.

 

[Devils' Advocate]

This reminds me of my new Christian friends

I don't envy you this situation. Specifically your desire to share your beliefs that are radically different from strict Biblical interpretation. The issue as I see it is that people like your friends are fiercely opposed to any other interpretation, and you saying merely mentioning evolution to them you received a very strongly negative response.

I have known lots of people who are strict biblical believers. Most of them do not want anything to do with me once I brought up an alternate suggestion. There was one woman, a friend of me and my wife's. She believed this way and she knew neither of us was Christian. She was willing to discuss this with my wife, but never would discuss it with me. And she always felt so badly for us that we were going to Hell. That she was willing to be our friend despite this is quite the unusual situation in my experiences.

Be particularly cautious talking to their kids privately. If word were to get back to the parents you were questioning the faith of their children, I expect the result would not be pretty.

Obviously I don't know your friends, and who knows, maybe they are more the exception rather than the typical. So guess you don't really know till you try. Just understand that if you do bring up a different interpretation of the bible, it 'might' be the end of that relationship.

 

[Devils' Advocate]

Absolutely! Personally, I think psychological and emotional torment is the worst and most devastating kind of abuse. Far more difficult treat or reverse.

Yeah I agree with you on this one. A body heals much more easily than a mind.

 

[Namaste Jesus]

Even if one accepts for the sake of discussion that a God could do that, it still is unreasonable to say the two processes are in any way comparable.

Perhaps, but we're still talking about the same raw materials and that was my point. To me, it's no more implausible to say God created life from these materials than it is to say life spontaneously erupted from them in a warm pond. Probably not something we're ever going to agree on though, so I'll just leave it at that.

I was taught hellfire, Adam and Eve, Noah's Ark, the lot: by old fashioned Irish Jesuits.

In my house growing up it was just the opposite. I was the one taking a more literal approach to scripture and my mom was the one proclaiming not everything in the Bible can be taken word for word. We ended up settling somewhere in the middle with no permanent damage to either of our psyches.

 

[RJM]

Absolutely! Personally, I think psychological and emotional torment is the worst and most devastating kind of abuse. Far more difficult treat or reverse.

Would you like to elaborate a little on this, in the context of religious education?

 

[Namaste Jesus]

Would you like to elaborate a little on this, in the context of religious education?

I wasn't thinking strictly about religious education when I posted. It just struck a nerve with me as it brought to mind the way my father use to brow beat my brother. He never laid a hand on any of us, but his words cut deep and left long lasting scars that my older brother never quite recovered from. As far as religious education goes, I think a lot of times the Bible is used to do just that. Brow beat kids to the point of self loathing and doubt. Worse yet, such tactics often lead people to abandon God and religion altogether.

 

[RJM]

I wasn't thinking strictly about religious education when I posted. It just struck a nerve with me as it brought to mind the way my father use to brow beat my brother. He never laid a hand on any of us, but his words cut deep and left long lasting scars that my older brother never quite recovered from. As far as religious education goes, I think a lot of times the Bible is used to do just that. Brow beat kids to the point of self loathing and doubt. Worse yet, such tactics often lead people to abandon God and religion altogether.

Ok, I understand. Quite true. Yes, of course you can torment a person to suicide with words.

But does this apply to religious education? Could you stunt a child sexually, perhaps? Probably.

 

[RJM]

Or turn him/her into a killer/suicide bomber?
Definitely.
So I admit I was wrong ...

 

[Namaste Jesus]

But does this apply to religious education? Could you stunt a child sexually, perhaps? Probably.

Like most things, it's all a matter of how you go about it. I mean, if one uses the Bible to discourage sexual activity outside of marriage for instance. In my view, that in and of itself is not really stunting a child sexually, but rather establishing their moral compass. On the other hand if you do it by threatening the child with eternal damnation should they transgress, that could very well lead to sexual problems later in life.

Or turn him/her into a killer/suicide bomber?

Absolutely. The minute religion is used to promote hatred, you open the flood gates. I've always taught, despise the sin not the sinner. We're all God's children regardless our transgressions.

 

[A Cup Of Tea]

you saying merely mentioning evolution to them you received a very strongly negative response.

Honest question, you don't see yourself having a very strong negative response to someone mentioning creationism? I don't really know you but as far as I could imagine it sounds plausible.

 

[A Cup Of Tea]

Or turn him/her into a killer/suicide bomber?
Definitely.
So I admit I was wrong ...

I never thought that you must be wrong, but it was really cool to see your train of though.

 

[RJM]

However, inciting a child to kill would be child abuse regardless of religious reasons? There are already laws in place.

And deliberately or unwittingly passing on one's own hang-ups and prejudices -- religious or whatever else -- to one's children is a fact of life.

I'm still very uncomfortable with the idea that teaching religion can be child abuse, because of where it can lead?

There will always obviously be some crazy doomsday sects, etc. But there the abuse is going to be so obvious that it will probably be illegal anyway, under existing laws?

 

[Devils' Advocate]

To me, it's no more implausible to say God created life from these materials than it is to say life spontaneously erupted from them in a warm pond.

Ah but this is an entirely different statement from your previous one. Here you are comparing different avenues for the creation of life. And, you'd better sit down for this one. I agree with you. Each seems equally plausible. The only difference is that in the future science may finally crack this egg and show how life sprang from complex but nonliving organic molecules.

And even then, you will be able to say that just because man figured out how to do it doesn't mean God didn't do it first. And even then I could not say you are wrong as the negative can never be proven. And we would basically end right back where we started. Round and round and round we go!

 

[Devils' Advocate]

Honest question, you don't see yourself having a very strong negative response to someone mentioning creationism? I don't really know you but as far as I could imagine it sounds plausible.

Actually I have no problem with someone believing in Creationism. Live and let live is the motto I live by (to the best of my abilities). Such a person and I can even be friends as long as we each agree to disagree. In point of fact I have had friends who believed such and we were still friends. It boggles my mind that they can believe the earth is only 6,000 years old and so on, but as long as they are not going to push that on me, I'm not going to push evolution on them. We agree to disagree.

Where I become militant and rigid is when people are actively attempting to put Creationism in the public school system as part of science class. That is unacceptable because Creationism is not science, and none of its tenants are based on the scientific principle. If Creationism is taught in church classes that is fine. Just don't try to pretend it is science to push it into the public school system. Nobody that I have ever heard of is trying to make religious institutions teach evolution as a requirement. Stop trying to push a religious concept onto the secular schools.

 

[RJM]

... people are actively attempting to put Creationism in the public school system as part of science class ...

I can believe some are actively trying to put it there. But not that they really have a snowball's chance of being taken seriously by the public school system in the US?

 

[Namaste Jesus]

Ah but this is an entirely different statement from your previous one.

My fault there. What I meant didn't come across, because of the way I expressed it. Instead of reverse the process, I should have said, used the same raw materials.

And, you'd better sit down for this one. I agree with you. Each seems equally plausible.

LOL...! Glad to hear it. Actually, I was cautiously optimistic on that one.

It boggles my mind that they can believe the earth is only 6,000 years old and so on

I'm taken back on that one myself. The Bible doesn't even really indicate the earth's age per se.

That is unacceptable because Creationism is not science, and none of its tenants are based on the scientific principle.

And... back to disagreeing. All is right with the world again. Seriously though, I do get what you're saying. I do think there are possible scientific explanations for things found in the Bible, but trying to teach on that basis would be a disservice to both religion and science. Not to mention, trying to decide who's religion or interpretation to work from. No, it's better to keep that aspect of things at home or in the church and not teach one to disregard the other. Yeah right!

 

[Devils' Advocate]

And... back to disagreeing. All is right with the world again.

Woosh! Starting to get worried for a moment or two there! lol.

Though actually your saying there can be scientific explanations for some things found in the Bible is not out of line to my way of thinking. That's not really what Creationism stands for though. Supporters of Creationism state emphatically that it is as much a science as, say, biology. It isn't.

So there, one agreement and one disagreement. Balls in your court!

 

[Devils' Advocate]

I can believe some are actively trying to put it there. But not that they really have a snowball's chance of being taken seriously by the public school system in the US?

Actually there is a very good chance it could be put into school textbooks; the reason being the way text books are sold in this country. Most grade school and high school text books are printed and marketed at the national level. Trying to see that all students have the same information at their disposal no matter where they live. All well and good, IF states had equal input as to what should be in textbooks.

But, as always, the bottom line is money. And the bigger states buy the most books. The state that buys the most textbooks is Texas. So Texas gets a disproportionately high level of input as to what goes into these books. If they disapprove of the material, they might not buy the book for their school systems. No book publisher is going to take the chance of ticking off the Texas state school board. And, of course, Creationism support is HUGE in Texas. Add to that a rabid conservative director of the school board and the issue made national headlines two years ago.

He demanded Creationism be put in the science section of textbooks. There was a huge fight, of course, and in the end the inclusion was cancelled. But it came VERY close for a few months there. With most of the country under the control of religious conservative republican governors right now, the separation of church and state is as this as it has ever been, probably in the history of the country. Scary times for those of us who believe our government should remain completely secular the way the Founding Fathers intended.

 

[RJM]

Actually there is a very good chance it could be put into school textbooks; the reason being the way text books are sold in this country. Most grade school and high school text books are printed and marketed at the national level. Trying to see that all students have the same information at their disposal no matter where they live. All well and good, IF states had equal input as to what should be in textbooks.

But, as always, the bottom line is money. And the bigger states buy the most books. The state that buys the most textbooks is Texas. So Texas gets a disproportionately high level of input as to what goes into these books. If they disapprove of the material, they might not buy the book for their school systems. No book publisher is going to take the chance of ticking off the Texas state school board. And, of course, Creationism support is HUGE in Texas. Add to that a rabid conservative director of the school board and the issue made national headlines two years ago.

He demanded Creationism be put in the science section of textbooks. There was a huge fight, of course, and in the end the inclusion was cancelled. But it came VERY close for a few months there. With most of the country under the control of religious conservative republican governors right now, the separation of church and state is as this as it has ever been, probably in the history of the country. Scary times for those of us who believe our government should remain completely secular the way the Founding Fathers intended.

Wow!
Truly scary times ...