Do we all pray to the same God?
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Oh, and lol....no.
Maranguape
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Listen Yessy, are you implying that God was separated from Abraham, Isaac and Jacob? Well, they were not atoned for in Christ. They never even heard about Jesus and the power his blood shed on the cross exerted, according to your claim. BTW, if you ask me, historically, the reason Jesus died on the cross was because he allowed his disciples to acclaim him king of the Jews in Jerusalem which was a Roman province at the time if you read Luke 19:37-40. Hence, his verdict commanded by Pilate to be nailed at the top of his cross read INRI. Obviously, Pilate meant to show every one the reason why Jesus was crucified. It didn't help though as anti-Semites prefer the slander that Jesus was killed by the Jews. Besides, if Jesus could be asked to express his opinion on this matter, he would be able to say that no one can die for the sins of another as he knew it himself from the Scriptures if we read Ezekiel 18:4,20.
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Bhaktajan II
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What is it with the concept of SACRIFICE? I refer to ritual alter sacrifice. [penance is another subject].
IMO the people of the world in Jesus's time were so unfortunate due to life times worth of fruitive actions that yielded only an existential life.
people of the world in Jesus's time were Spiritually poor, bereft folks, all of them!
Due to the "causeless Mercy" of Christ's death & resurrection ---folks understood there was a democratic afterlife for every soul.
WE ARE NOT THE MATERIAL BODY WE ARE SPIRIT SOUL
This is the first lesson of spiritual life. This is what "We" teach and expect all novices to first realise!
It's the first lesson of ashram life:
WE ARE SPIRIT SOUL WE ARE NOT THE MATERIAL BODY
IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII
Reference:
The Lord said, Whenever and wherever there is a decline in religious practice, and a predominant rise of irreligion--at that time I descend Myself. (4.7)
The rule of thumb has been written:
God advents and preaches, as per "Time and Place" ---as per the conditions of the persons living in that "Time and Place".
I rather think they were, but that's whether one views Christ as 'in' time or transcending it.
Well the Twelve didn't, although the populace of the city did welcome Him as a king. However, Pilate didn't want to fall into the trap of creating a martyr and inflaming Jewish feelings all the more, so he 'washed his hands' of the affair, as is recorded in all four gospels.
Maranguape
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As long as we are alive, that is, with the breath of life, we are souls. That's what the Tanach says in Genesis 2:7, when the Lord formed man from the dust of the earth and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life man became a living soul. Since becoming is to be and not to have, we are souls, we don't have souls. At death, as the breath of life leaves the body, we are dead. In other words, the soul has ceased to exist.
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Bhaktajan II
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Dear Maranguape,
You are posting "conjecture". It is honest and sincere inference but it is not what the verse says. Your post has 87 words ---how many are the direct translated text of the Bible? IE: A Greek Christian would have no trouble translating directly what the NT says.
This is what I learnt:
In India if one person tells another, “You must do this,” the other party may say, “What do you mean? Is this a Vedic [scriptural] injunction, that I have to follow you without any argument?”
Otherwise we are like that scene in "Life of Brian" ---where there is a market place full of prophets hawking their Ideas.
Scripture must be quoted to express subjects beyond our ability to know things.
Surely God delegates tasks and responsibilities, at least as much as a king or headmaster or company director?
As above, so below.
Plato's cave.
There may be successive gods of our world. Perhaps they act for a period, and then are promoted to even greater work -- to taking care of arcs of space and time, containing many worlds, both perceivable and imperceivable to us earthbound mortal beings, for instance -- while another god moves to take their place looking after this world: angels and powers -- all sorts of spiritual realms and dimensions -- always moving upward, closer to, but never reaching 'God'?
As above, so below.
Plato's cave.
There may be successive gods of our world. Perhaps they act for a period, and then are promoted to even greater work -- to taking care of arcs of space and time, containing many worlds, both perceivable and imperceivable to us earthbound mortal beings, for instance -- while another god moves to take their place looking after this world: angels and powers -- all sorts of spiritual realms and dimensions -- always moving upward, closer to, but never reaching 'God'?
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Drawing cartoon of omnipotence defenestration, with omniscience already on the ground...(from when He didn't know Adam would eat the apple or where they were hiding)
A computer comes with a manual explaining how to use the keyboard. The book doesn't go into all the wonderful technicalities of the device. Just how best to utilise it. After a while, the operator grows beyond the manual, starts finding his own patterns.
He starts with the book, then works with the computer. The book is always there to go back to. There is always more to be learned from studying it. But if the book tells him a lot of stuff that doesn't work, he takes the whole box back to the shop?
He starts with the book, then works with the computer. The book is always there to go back to. There is always more to be learned from studying it. But if the book tells him a lot of stuff that doesn't work, he takes the whole box back to the shop?
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So, the book says: hold down button until screen lights up, then scroll to menu etc, and follow prompts to skype your cousin in Australia. And you say: Skype my cousin in Australia? It's not possible to have a visual conversation with my cousin in Australia -- that is a ridiculous suggestion, it would be a miracle and magic. I'm not going to make a fool of myself holding down some button, waiting for some screen to light-up.
The button is a key that unlocks entry to unknown power.
But a spiritual key requires of the user to give something of himself, to turn it ... all roads lead to Rome ...
The button is a key that unlocks entry to unknown power.
But a spiritual key requires of the user to give something of himself, to turn it ... all roads lead to Rome ...
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When Mary Magdalen annointed the feet of Christ with precious ointment that could have been sold for money, that was sacrifice?
When she washed the feet of Christ with her tears and dried them with her hair, that was penitence?
Ritual altar sacrifice -- the golden altar vessels etc -- is a symbol of giving the best to God?
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I happen to agree with this. Like you, I don't think God 'breathed' a soul into the dust (cf Genesis 2:7), rather, God 'breathed life' and the soul came into being.
A point too many gloss over.
Here there are issues.
What do you make of sheol? Who/what inhabits the realm of the dead? And what do you make of such texts that speak of the soul, and the deliverance of the soul from hell, that is spoken of so often in the Psalms?
I know you qualified this with 'ritual sacrifice, but I just wanted to say that the term 'sacrifice' is so broad and so deep it seems to escape a totally satisfactory definition. It's one of those terms that seems to have emerged from the human psyche.
Are you talking about the whole world? I'm not so sure. In fact I'd say that's more life today than life then ...
People of today (and I don't include you in this number) look at people of yesterday as naive and superstitious, but I think the mistake is they assume intellectual sophistication as a marker of spiritual insight. I often think ancient folks had a far more profound understanding and dialogue with 'It', but their terms of expression perhaps looks quaint and childish today, and the modern eye makes a false judgement ...
Oh, I disagree with that. No more and no less than anywhere else ... and compared to today? They were rich!
OK, but that has to be qualified.
The 'we' of which you speak is the product of a body-soul experience, you cannot separate the two. More and more science demonstrates how our psyches are shaped by experience mediated by the senses.
Then I'd say both your ashram and my church needs to review its traditional thinking. We are spirit-soul-body ... which I think the Hebrew teachings had about right from the get-go.
I mean, take away the material body and how can a a 'we' be formed? It can't.
Concept of soul is one of those areas where the difference in paradigm, east vs west, really stands out.
Bhagavad Gita 2:20 states; The soul is neither born, nor does it ever die; nor having once existed, does it ever cease to be. The soul is without birth, eternal, immortal, and ageless. It is not destroyed when the body is destroyed....
So, in the east, soul transcends the human body. Unlike our material selves, the soul was not born. Like God whence it came, it just is and continues to be once the flesh has perished. In other words 'WE' are more than just flesh and bones.
In the west however, it's hard for us to separate self from what our material senses currently experience. So, despite scriptural references to the soul being delivered up, returning to the Father and so forth, we tend to think of 'WE' as a combination of soul and body.
Personally, I don't find the BG's summation out of line with biblical teachings, but then, that's just me.
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There are obvious doctrinal differences with the Christian interpretation: reincarnation, for instance, and the forgiveness of original sin (annulment of karma?) through grace/baptism.
The main difference -- that God can be 'achieved' rather than received as the gift of grace, especially the sacrifice of the cross -- isn't that difficult to get around, with an open, intelligent reading of both scriptures?
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And some.
And there it is. In the Christian world, the soul is created.
As nothing can be that is not in the mind of God, and as God is eternal, then the idea of you, me, that tree, everything, exists eternally in the mind of God, and then — perhaps — manifests in time, in creation.
Loads of elbow room here. The Greek make more of this than the Latin, the many logoi that issue from the Logos.
It's a firm understanding that you, me, that tree etc., is not the logoi in the world, the two are utterly distinct, before anyone jumps on this to say creation is nothing, and we are all just a dream in the Divine mind, etc.
But lots of room for discussion.
Agreed.
Then what distinguishes the soul from God?
I'd say impossible, and a folly to try. Take away everything that did not come through the material senses, and there's nothing left.
Well I tend to think of the body as the means by which the soul manifests in the world. No body ... nothing there ...
I've never examined it in that light ... I'm sure there's common ground, however.
Whether two people find common ground or extreme chasms of difference that can't be bridged....has more to do with the individuals than the text.