This Life and the Next

[Aussie Thoughts]

Aw, heck ... I'm not trying to 'piss on anyone's chips' here, but I sure sound like I am ...

LOL... great, now I've got to try to get that image out of my head before I can visit the Chip Shop again!

I know what you're saying mate. Same reservations on my end. Makes your bloody head spin.

I must say though, I'm really rather enjoying the direction this thread has taken.

 

[RJM]

Not at all. I was referring to my own comment about what I had read regarding the body storing memory and brain injuries sometimes altering speech patterns. In other words, I think there's more to transplant patients having memories associated with the organ donor or people awaking from comas with foreign accents than just the clinical explanation.

... A complete skeptic might look at this another way, and wonder whether the 'soul' or whatever, of a previous existence had not invaded/taken possession of the soul of another in an attempt to keep going? ...

... what Im trying to point to is reincarnation is discussed by those who already buy into the idea as an 'ideal', whereas it doesn't take much to turn that same idea into a nightmare...

Perhaps just as some prisoners want to return to the 'known security' of prison after being released, in a very loose analogy, there are souls that want to return to material earth after death. For whatever reason.

Perhaps such souls instead of accepting the angelic guidance that will take them on to new experiences after death of the body, choose to linger in the 'earth surround', close to earth. This may explain the concept of a ghost.

It's possible that such an earthbound soul/spirit will seek to attach to a living human being, in order to experience second-hand that human person's physical existence, or perhaps to guide it: towards alcohol or drugs, perhaps, in the case of the earthbound soul being unable to let-go of addictions, or else more benevolently -- perhaps to do a right rather than a wrong, etc.?

(Perhaps a mother loves her child so much and is so concerned about him, that she wishes to stay close to him, after she has passed on?)

Of course this could also explain the cases of people hearing voices that make them kill, etc. For instance, drugs or psychic games like tarot and ouiji board may open the door to this sort of malevolent 'possession'. A spirit we can't see, can pose as anyone.

It's just a thought.

What can we, the living, do about it? Only try to keep our own 'house in order' with God's guidance.

Of course I'm not proposing this explains all cases of deja vu, remembering past lives or samskara.

 

[A Cup Of Tea]

My perennial question is who/what reincarnates?

Same question regarding heaven n hell eh?

Er ... no ... ?

I think wil was saying that we might not be sure what part of us lives on in a heaven/hell, just as we don't know what part of us reincarnates. I thought you would agree with that at least to some extent. Though I think I remember you talking about hell as obliteration?

 

[wil]

My perennial question is who/what reincarnates?

Same question regarding heaven n hell eh?

Er ... no ... ?

No? There is no question?

Then if I go to heaven what do I find there? My 99 year old cancer ridden grandma in the flesh? The shrunken withered bedridden result of life a portion of her force if nature former stoic self, or her as the 19 year old my grandfather married (a person I would not recognize?).

Same in hell...who am I there? Physically mentally?

Why not the same question?

Sometimes I think you've got a knee jerk reaction to simply disagree with me...even when I haven't made a statement but a question.

 

[wil]

My perennial question is who/what reincarnates?

Same question regarding heaven n hell eh?

Er ... no ... ?

No? There is no question?

Then if I go to heaven what do I find there? My 99 year old cancer ridden grandma in the flesh? The shrunken withered bedridden result of life a portion of her force if nature former stoic self, or her as the 19 year old my grandfather married (a person I would not recognize?).

Same in hell...who am I there? Physically mentally?

Why not the same question?

Sometimes I think you've got a knee jerk reaction to simply disagree with me...even when I haven't made a statement but a question.

 

[wil]

Here's my problem:
In Buddhism, as I understand

In Hinduism, again as I understand it

I am ready to accept that all this is an erroneous grasp of the doctrines, but until then, it's all I have to go on.

This I always find interesting...

This is not about you Thomas, but in general.

When we speak of our own belief, our own religion we often say things like you gotta have faith....you don't see it to believe it, if you believe it you'll see it... You can't use your brain and logic to discuss spiritual principles....it is beyond that...

But when we examine another's belief, another's religion, we become that skeptic and wish to pick apart the errors in their scripture as much as we wish to overlook the controversy in our own.

Can we have it both ways?

Do we have to know the exact nuances and mechanics or can we just lay under the trees and be amazed at the summer breeze and the connections we see?

 

[wil]

I think wil was saying that we might not be sure what part of us lives on in a heaven/hell, just as we don't know what part of us reincarnates. I thought you would agree with that at least to some extent. Though I think I remember you talking about hell as obliteration?

Oops and yes that was my line of thought...I made the mistake of following up prior to reading the rest of the thread...

 

[Thomas]

I think wil was saying ...

I misconstrued ...

 

[Thomas]

No? There is no question?

Oh, there is a question.

Then if I go to heaven what do I find there?

I do not know, but I would speculate you would find the 'person' of your grandma, without all the external contingent material phenomena, so it would be soul-to-soul experience of the other, rather than body-to-body, with the proviso that you know your grandma as more than just a body ... I remember looking at my dad after he had died and thinking, "He's not there/That's not him" — I mean, for the sake of the death certificate, that was the body of my father, but my father was no longer there, if you get me?

Having said that, how a (human) spiritual being appears to another (human) spiritual being is something to ponder ... but I might suggest the individual soul would represent itself in/as some form... the quote below is from Jean Borella ...

... It is in fact through the body that we are present in a world of bodies. However, this presence, of which we believe ourselves to be the masters since it is somehow identified with us, is in reality a passive and involuntary presence. It was Merleau-Ponty who showed, in The Phenomenology of Perception ... it (the body) can do nothing but offer itself to our gaze, it can do nothing but be seen.
... What happens then, to the contrary, in the Resurrection of Christ? ... Christ's body is still the instrument of presence in the world of bodies, but, by a total change, it is no longer of the essence of this presence to be passive and involuntary. The soul which inhabits this instrument is entirely master of it and makes use of it at will. Christ can actualize the corporeal mode of His presence according to His own decision and as He judges good. The relationship that He entertains with the corporeal medium of His presence has been completely transformed ... Christ is no longer seen, He causes Himself to be seen. This is exactly what the Gospels teach... (Jean Borella, Gnosis and Anti-Christian Gnosis, highlights mine)

Then we shall see clearly, and not in part, as if reflected in a mirror or the eye (cf 1 Corinthians 13:12) "but then I shall know even as I am known" (13:12 again), "We know, that, when he shall appear, we shall be like to him: because we shall see him as he is" (1 John 3:2).

My 99 year old cancer ridden grandma in the flesh?

Some might present themselves so, as an exemplar of courage, endurance, and so forth, much in the same way that Christ's body was reconstituted to be that body prior to the Passion, yet still bore the stigmata as a symbol, but did not go in for the full technicolour ruin that was taken down off the cross. (And re. the excerpt quoted above, explains why Mary M did not recognise Him in the garden, until He revealed Himself to her.)

... or her as the 19 year old my grandfather married (a person I would not recognize?).

Or perhaps, why only the one face? Why not multiple appearances of the same essential person, so each would see the person they know and love, as if each was projecting the image carried in his/her heart ... now that came straight off the keyboard and that is something I need to consider ...

Same in hell...who am I there? Physically mentally?

Spiritually, a person dwindling into extinction like a burnt-out star. I do not go in for medieval images of the eschaton ...

Why not the same question?

Because the question doesn't arise in the Christian Tradition.

In Buddhism there is not soul, so I cannot see what 'goes on' if everything that constitutes this person is ephemeral and illusory.

In Hinduism there is soul, but it is a universal, as far as I can make out, prior to and higher than the individual person, who again seems to be a conglomerate of contingent experience.

In the Abrahamics, the soul is the person, the person is his/her soul, so in that sense the question 'who/what' is answered...

Sometimes I think you've got a knee jerk reaction to simply disagree with me...

I'm sorry, and perhaps at times I do, but I do rather feel your posts often come from 'left field' and the trying to pin down exactly what you mean proves to be a quest for the elusive ... so rather than guess what the question meant, I thought I'd offer a short-hand response and see where that got me?

 

[wil]

So bottom line...we don't know what one appears like to another in heaven or hell if there is a heaven or hell.

And we don't know for certain how reincarnation works or what portion of one reincarnates if there is reincarnation.

Yet we believe our beliefs are correct to a level of comfort which we accept... And are still uncomfortable and confused as to how/why others can believe what they believe.

I do rather feel your posts often come from 'left field'

"Out beyond ideas of wrongdoing
and rightdoing there is a field.
I'll meet you there.
When the soul lies down in that grass
the world is too full to talk about."
Rumi

Do we have to know the exact nuances and mechanics or can we just lay under the trees and be amazed at the summer breeze and the connections we see?

As always..thx for the circumambulation.

 

[wil]

I remember looking at my dad after he had died and thinking, "He's not there/That's not him" — I mean, for the sake of the death certificate, that was the body of my father, but my father was no longer there, if you get me?

Always....during every open casket I've seen, starting with my grandpa when i was a kid... Never saw the person there...only the shell.

 

[Namaste Jesus]

It's just a thought.

...and fine points to ponder I might add. I would not rule out any of it.

What can we, the living, do about it? Only try to keep our own 'house in order' with God's guidance.

BINGO! You hit the nail on the head my friend!

I remember looking at my dad after he had died and thinking, "He's not there/That's not him" — I mean, for the sake of the death certificate, that was the body of my father, but my father was no longer there, if you get me?

Man, do I ever. That's exactly how I felt when my mom passed. Actually several days before. I mean, technically on a biological level she was still alive, but it just wasn't her anymore. She had gone...

Or perhaps, why only the one face? Why not multiple appearances of the same essential person, so each would see the person they know and love, as if each was projecting the image carried in his/her heart ... now that came straight off the keyboard and that is something I need to consider ...

Nice one old son. If I didn't know better I'd swear you've been reading the Gita!

 

[wil]

If I didn't know better I'd swear you've been reading the Gita!

I think similar source...

now that came straight off the keyboard and that is something I need to consider ...

Lol.... Now you know what it is like when you let your fingers do the the channeling...

You guys think you don't know what I am thinking sometimes...

I have to read it to find out!

 

[Thomas]

Perhaps just as some prisoners ... Perhaps such souls ... It's possible ...
It's just a thought.

There's a lot in it, I think.

It opens up whole areas concerning psychic residue, ghosts, egregore, even memes.

 

[Thomas]

When we speak of our own belief, our own religion we often say things like you gotta have faith...

To get inside the nature of the thing, that's inescapable, really. Religion/Spirituality is not about the empirical.

.... you don't see it to believe it, if you believe it you'll see it.

Again, the difference between inside looking out, or outside looking in. I suppose Zen is most like that — it's very much not something you get to by talking about it, it's something you do.

You can't use your brain and logic to discuss spiritual principles...

What about Aquinas or Bonaventure, Dionysius or Eckhart, Shankara, Ibn'Arabi, Suzuki, Lao Tzu ...

But when we examine another's belief, another's religion, we become that skeptic and wish to pick apart the errors in their scripture as much as we wish to overlook the controversy in our own.

Well you have to pick your company if you're going to have cross-party discussions.

That's what attracted me to the Perennial Philosophy, I've rarely seen a discussion of Comparative Religion carried out with such consideration of the other point of view.

Can we have it both ways?

What, faith and reason? I think so. Faith is always reasonable within the context f its paradigm.

Do we have to know the exact nuances and mechanics or can we just lay under the trees and be amazed at the summer breeze and the connections we see?

Depends whether one wants to be a passenger or participant, I suppose. It's a matter of disposition, I think.

 

[Thomas]

So bottom line... we don't know what one appears like to another in heaven or hell if there is a heaven or hell.

No we don't, but we have faith, that's a given. But appearances is not really the point, rather it's what appears?

And we don't know for certain how reincarnation works or what portion of one reincarnates if there is reincarnation.

Well that's the question I was asking, and again, some do know for certain.

Yet we believe our beliefs are correct to a level of comfort which we accept...

Yep.

And are still uncomfortable and confused as to how/why others can believe what they believe.

I suppose again it's a matter of disposition.

Personally I am never discomforted by other faiths or the faith of others, especially in a world increasingly skeptical and atheist. And not confused, simply curious.

"Out beyond ideas of wrongdoing
and rightdoing there is a field.
I'll meet you there.
When the soul lies down in that grass
the world is too full to talk about."
Rumi

Absolutely! Those are the fields I seek, out beyond our assumptions and judgements.

"A life unexamined is a life unlived"
Socrates

 

[Thomas]

On further reflection ...

I think the Rumi quote is most apposite. The way I see it, the impediments we place before the acceptance of faith are what keep the Elysian Fields 'out beyond' us ...

 

[wil]

For me it is in this plane.... These are my Bliss moments....when I get flooded with joy, wonder, amazement...when the world is to full to talk about.

 

[RJM]

... egregore, even memes...

Had to Google those, lol

 

[wil]

He does that