Is the world the best it's ever been ... and why?

Hi NJ —

The reason I started this thread was the way I read Wil's posts to imply we are spiritually more enlightened now that ever, hence the 50 year things he celebrates.

I think he's withdrawn from that position, so I'll withdraw from this.
 
As for 'Imagine', very sentimental, but unrealistic. It doesn't really take the human person into account.

All thoe dreadful things we did in the past ... we're the same creature today. That we somehow see ourselves as 'other' is an illusion. It's all there, under the surface, and it surfaces when the conditions are 'right' ...
 
Hi NJ —

The reason I started this thread was the way I read Wil's posts to imply we are spiritually more enlightened now that ever, hence the 50 year things he celebrates.

I think he's withdrawn from that position, so I'll withdraw from this.
nah, the further we get from man made religions the closer we get to the essence that started them before they got warped by our egos and the close we get to the spirit within

You may say I'm a dreamer. But I am not th only one. I hope some day you will join us, and the world will live as one.
 
Scientists, historians and politicians alike have begun to warn that Western culture is reaching a critical juncture. Cycles of inequality and resource use are heading for a tipping point that in many past civilisations precipitated political unrest, war and finally collapse.

Peter Turchin (evolutionary anthropologist at the University of Connecticut) thinks there are certainly some worrying signs. Turchin studied boom-and-bust cycles in predator and prey animals when he realised the equations could also describe the rise and fall of ancient civilisations.

In civilisations in Ancient Egypt, China and Russia, he spotted two recurring cycles that are linked to regular era-defining periods of unrest. “You’ve got to be very optimistic to think that this is just a blip on the screen”.

One, a “secular cycle”, lasts two or three centuries. It starts with a fairly equal society but, as wealthy elites form and the living standards of the workers fall, the society becomes more unequal, the cycle enters a more destructive phase, leading to social turbulence and, eventually, collapse.

Then there is a second, shorter cycle, lasting 50 years and made up of two generations – one peaceful and one turbulent.

Looking at US history Turchin spotted peaks of unrest in 1870, 1920 and 1970. Worse, he predicts that the end of the next 50-year cycle, in around 2020, will coincide with the turbulent part of the longer cycle, causing a period of political unrest that is at least on a par with what happened around 1970, at the peak of the civil rights movement and protests against the Vietnam war.

Turchin made his predictions in 2010, before the election of Donald Trump and the political infighting that surrounded his election, but he has since pointed out that current levels of inequality and political divisions in the US are clear signs that it is entering the downward phase of the cycle. Brexit and the Catalan crisis hint that the US is not the only part of the West to feel the strain.

Safa Motesharrei (mathematician at the University of Maryland) noticed that some keep going, but some societies, such as the Maya, the Minoans and the Hittites, never recovered.

He modelled human populations as if they were predators and natural resources were prey. Then he split the “predators” into two unequal groups, wealthy elites and less well-off commoners.

This showed that either extreme inequality or resource depletion could push a society to collapse, but collapse is irreversible only when the two coincide. “They essentially fuel each other,” says Motesharrei.

This doesn’t bode well for Western societies, which are dangerously unequal. According to a recent analysis, the world’s richest 1 per cent now owns half the wealth, and the gap between the super-rich and everyone else has been growing since the financial crisis of 2008.

Motesharrei’s group has shown that by rapidly using non-renewable resources such as fossil fuels, a society can grow by an order of magnitude beyond what would have been supported by renewables alone, and so is able to postpone its collapse. “But when the collapse happens,” they concluded, “it is much deeper.”

Joseph Tainter (anthropologist at Utah State University), author of "The Collapse of Complex Societies", offers a similarly bleak outlook. He sees the worst-case scenario as a rupture in fossil fuel availability, causing food and water supplies to fail and millions to die within a few weeks.

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However things pan out, almost nobody thinks the outlook for the West is good. “You’ve got to be very optimistic to think that the West’s current difficulties are just a blip on the screen,” says Ian Morris (historian at Stanford University in California).

Turchin says introducing more progressive taxes to address income equality and the exploding public debt might be possible to avert disaster.

Motesharrei thinks we should rein in population growth to levels his model indicates are sustainable.

The problem with these kinds of solutions, however, is that humans haven’t proved themselves to be great at playing the long game.

And new technologies that solve short-term problems create their own long-term problems. Climate change is just one example. Overuse of antibiotics leading to microbial resistance, and the problem of an increasing old-aged population is another.

So, is the West really on the ropes? Perhaps. But ultimately its survival will depend on the speed at which people can adapt. If we don’t reduce our dependency on fossil fuels, tackle inequality and find a way to stop elites from squabbling among themselves, things will not end well. In Tainter’s view, if the West makes it through, it will be more by luck than by good judgement.

“We are a species that muddles through,” Tainter says. “That’s all we’ve ever done, and all we’ll ever do.”
(New Scientist lead article 20 Jan 2018)
 
As for 'Imagine', very sentimental, but unrealistic. It doesn't really take the human person into account.

All thoe dreadful things we did in the past ... we're the same creature today. That we somehow see ourselves as 'other' is an illusion. It's all there, under the surface, and it surfaces when the conditions are 'right' ...
Quite. I think the songs' dreamer reference more or less acknowledges that. In essence, saying that what he's asking us to imagine is not reality, but a fervent hope. The way he died really brought that home for me.:(
 
If I recall correctly, David Bentley Hart argues Christ infused the world with lingering traces of his likeness, and that Christ's appearance did spiritually enlighten human beings to a higher degree than those in the past. That's why Hart can say stuff like this: "Raised in shadow of the Christian world, inheritors of its moral grammar and imagination, we no longer enjoy the luxury of a capacity for innocent cruelty." He is basically reiterating part of Wil's message. Well, here's an excerpt from Hart's article here:

We speak today very easily, if not always sincerely, of the intrinsic dignity of every human person. For us, this is merely a received piety, and one of immemorial authority. And yet, if we take the time to wonder just how old a moral intuition it is, there is a good chance that our historical imagination will carry us only as far back as the “Age of Enlightenment” and the epoch of the “Rights of Man.” But our modern notion that there is such a thing as innate human worth, residing in every individual of every class and culture, is at best the very late consequence of a cultural, conceptual, and moral revolution that erupted many centuries earlier, and in the middle of a world that was anything but hospitable to its principles. And I am tempted to think that the nature of that revolution became visible for the first time only in the tale of Peter’s tears. We cannot quite see it, of course. For us, it does not stand out as an extraordinary moment in the larger narrative. We expect Peter to weep; more to the point, we expect the narrator to record the fact. After all, Peter’s humanity is our own, and so we do not hesitate to recognize his grief as ours also. It is all quite obvious to us: Peter’s shattering realization of the immensity of his failure, his hopeless devotion to his beloved master, the certain knowledge that he will never have a chance to retract his words or seek Christ’s forgiveness for his cowardice. To us, the story would probably seem incomplete if this detail were missing. But that is not how things would have seemed to most of the contemporaries of the evangelists. At least, among the literate classes of late antiquity, to call attention to Peter’s grief would more likely have seemed an aesthetic mistake; for Peter, as a rustic, could not possibly have been a worthy object of a well-bred man’s sympathy, nor could his sorrow possibly have possessed the sort of tragic dignity necessary to make it a suitable subject of either a poet or a historian. If a peasant’s weeping possessed any interest at all, it might be as an occasion for cruel mirth. Tragic dignity was the exclusive property of the nobly born. It was the great literary critic Erich Auerbach, many decades ago, who perhaps most powerfully called attention to the singularity of the story in the context of late antique literature. According to his Mimesis: The Representation of Reality in Western Literature, when one compares this scene to the sort of emotional portraiture one finds in great Roman writers, comic or serious, one discovers that only in Peter can one glimpse “the image of man in the highest and deepest and most tragic sense.” Yet Peter is a peasant from Galilee, a rural backwater in an obscure and barbarous colonial territory. This was not merely a lapse of good taste; it was an act of rebellion.

Not that the evangelists necessarily intended to be especially provocative. Still, in this story we see something beginning to emerge from darkness into full visibility, arguably for the first time in our history: the human person as such, invested with an intrinsic and inviolable worth, an infinite value. Actually, even our blithe willingness to assign personhood in the fullest sense to everyone who comes our way is the consequence of that ancient revolt. Originally, at least in many very crucial contexts, “persons” were something of a rarity in nature. At least, as far as ancient Roman legal usage, one’s person was the status one held before the law, and this was anything but an invariable property among all individuals.
 
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Scientists, historians and politicians alike have begun to warn that Western culture is reaching a critical juncture. Cycles of inequality and resource use are heading for a tipping point that in many past civilisations precipitated political unrest, war and finally collapse.

Interesting thoughts. Not saying you're wrong, but you made me think of the video below:

 
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Hi Ahanu —

... Still, in this story we see something beginning to emerge from darkness into full visibility, arguably for the first time in our history: the human person as such, invested with an intrinsic and inviolable worth, an infinite value. Actually, even our blithe willingness to assign personhood in the fullest sense to everyone who comes our way is the consequence of that ancient revolt. Originally, at least in many very crucial contexts, “persons” were something of a rarity in nature. At least, as far as ancient Roman legal usage, one’s person was the status one held before the law, and this was anything but an invariable property among all individuals.
It's interesting to note that the contemporary idea of 'the person' was born out of this Christian idea, not only from Scripture, but also from the Christological disputes and Councils of the 3rd to the 6th centuries.
 
In the US Corporations are now people to.... and almost 80% of the money created last year went to the top 1%... If anything makes this experiment topple...it will be that.
 
are you being sloppy or do you think that anything that isn't religion is a better alternative than religion?

Or you can become catholic and the wold will live as one!
If you convince the other 6 billion on the planet to join in....we will sing Kumbiya around the fire!

Sloppy? Nah, our prisons are not full of atheists!
 
As a marker, in the UK, over a 5-year period the Muslim population rose from 3% to 4.8%, but over the same period, the number of Muslims in jail went up by 122%.

There are a number of questions about this, and now real answers as yet ... but the idea that the increase in terrorism is behind the rise is not the case, as the arrests for such offences remains quite small.

All the available evidence points to negative stereotyping and institutional racism. As ever, the prison population is higher among the lower class, ill educated young. And in one sample, for every 100 white women given prison sentences for drug offences, 227 black women were given the same.

These stats used to focus on the Afro-Caribbean population, but the Muslim is displacing the black man as the cultural boogeyman, and so the disparity in figures reflects this trend. You only have to see 'stop-and-search' and compare the disparity between black and white.
 
Yes, over here our laws were skewed against blacks, our justice system, and our police... for decades, thx Nixon... Of course the institutional racism proceeded him, he just accelerated it. That and our industrial prison system promising investors they will have "customers".

But it has never been skewed in favor of atheists, there is no reason their are fewer atheists in prison than in the general population other than....they might be more moral, more law abiding?
 
But it has never been skewed in favor of atheists, there is no reason their are fewer atheists in prison than in the general population other than....they might be more moral, more law abiding?
From a quick glance at a Pew Center report, I'd say there might well be significant indicators that there are fewer atheists in prison because there are fewer white people generally, or, the percentage of white people in prison who identify as atheist is a significantly higher percentage than atheists among the black and ethnic minority prisoners?

Currently black males are imprisoned at five times the rate of white males. It's two-to-one in the case of black women. And two-to-one in the case of Hispanic, all disproportionate figures when compared to the total population, unless one is going to argue that black people are five times more likely to break the law ...

... and I haven't factored in Muslims in the equation, nor the conversion rate to Islam within the prison system itself, which seems significant enough to be reported and discussed ...

There has long been the assumption, on the religious right, that atheists are more likely to be immoral/amoral, etc., because they lack moral direction without a religious compass to guide them.

This is a pejorative stereotype, of course, and the assumption that only with a religious conviction can someone make and stand by moral and/or ethical decisions is a nonsense.

Nor, on the other hand, are atheists any more morally/ethically minded than their religious neighbours. That, too, is a stereotype.
 
I wonder if these studies were conducted upon inmates entering prison or after they had been there a while. What I'm getting at is, how many took up religion after being incarcerated? People do tend to turn to God in times of strife. I do know of a few who turned to Islam while in prison, but I'm not sure the reason behind it or what their position was prior.
 
Nor, on the other hand, are atheists any more morally/ethically minded than their religious neighbours. That, too, is a stereotype.
Well it appears the stereotype of athiests committing fewer crime has been busted...it is a fact...they do commit less crime... and religious folks ignoring religious tenets is actually normal... you can read the whole article for the latter and for the former just scroll to the bottom and click on the last highlighted link. https://religionnews.com/2017/10/25/are-religious-people-more-moral/
 
I wonder if these studies were conducted upon inmates entering prison or after they had been there a while. What I'm getting at is, how many took up religion after being incarcerated? People do tend to turn to God in times of strife. I do know of a few who turned to Islam while in prison, but I'm not sure the reason behind it or what their position was prior.
I think the biggest conversion reason is aging...getting closer to death... I would relegate some of the aging and jailhouse conversions to grasping at straws...(Oh my what if it is true...for Islam and Christianity, folks hedging their bets in case they actually meet their maker) In prison there also is a protection factor...you are often better off joining one group or another in order to stay alive or reduce the liklihood of injury...safety in numbers...and that sometimes means joining their study groups...
 
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