Is This Idolatry
- Thread starter RJM
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juantoo3
....whys guy.... ʎʇıɹoɥʇnɐ uoıʇsǝnb
I appreciate where you are trying to come from, but I wouldn't go quite this far. This I think may well serve as Thomas says, as a visual reminder. It gets touchy and dicey, a fine - fine line that is too easy to cross (pardon the unintended pun). There are other icons in Catholic practice where I might personally see some valid point of discussion...the crucifix isn't one of them, in my opinion. Wouldn't be my preferred choice, but I can understand how it may assist others in their faithwalk.
Thank you. The thread question is not loaded. It seems a genuine question. I don't think pagans worship statues; the statue represents something. It's never been the object of the worship. No-one ever worshipped a statue. Has anyone ever really been that stupid? Or a picture?
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juantoo3
....whys guy.... ʎʇıɹoɥʇnɐ uoıʇsǝnb
Some of us...myself at the head of the pack...are bad about spending a great deal of time inside our own heads trying to sort it all out...what i's need to be dotted and what t's need to be crossed. I don't have a good excuse why I torment myself in such a way, particularly when I know it isn't what is inside my brain that gets me to heaven or gets me closer to G!d. I've said many times, not only here, over many many years...it isn't what you know, it is what you do with what you know. That is the lesson I was trying to convey with Romans 2. Right there, that one passage, Paul demonstrates to my satisfaction that heaven is available to all peoples, not just Christians.
Evil isn't a race, or a gender, or a hairstyle, or a tattoo. Evil can be found anywhere. But it isn't everywhere.
It doesn't matter to G!d, I don't believe, if a child is born in Bangladesh, or Timbuktu, or Kilimanjaro, or Bangalore...or downtown 1st world megalopolis. Almost every child will grow up with dreams of having a peaceful life, a fulfilling life, of having a family of their own. Most people are no different at heart than you or I. We all want the same basic things. Some of us are privileged to have some of these things, some of us are not...that doesn't make either of us evil. Evil is when one of us tries to take away those dreams, those chances, those opportunities to have a fulfilling life from the other.
Too many of us have lost touch with our spirit, so many of us don't even realize we have one. It can't be quantified, it isn't taught in textbooks, and renaissance philosophies have spent a great deal of time and effort convincing us that spirit doesn't exist. It exists, and this is not my opinion. I know this, it is a reality in my life since I was a small child. We spend so much effort trying to grow up and distance ourselves from our childhood "foolishness," not realizing that it is when our spirits are so unfettered, unspoiled and unladen that we have such a direct connection to the Heavenly Father. Some may call it guardian angels...the concept points in the same direction. School slowly disconnects us from that, and puberty makes us forget it existed, and philosophy including religion erases any trace - if it can.
I studied advertising for a psychology course (my major is business), and I was taken by a quote from an advertising exec, to the effect of: "good advertising takes away the person's confidence and sells it back to them for the price of the item." Think about that...how much is a Christian Church exactly like that? You can't go to G!d, you have to go through us first, and be sure to drop a few bucks in the tithe collection.
But that's not right. I know, in my heart, that all I have to do is reach out...and G!d is right there. That is the lesson of the repentant man beating his chest, begging G!d forgiveness...He is right there to receive him. G!d isn't with the Priest standing on the corner praying for all the sinners that pass by...that's showboating, self aggrandizement...he who is high will be brought low, he who is first will be made last.
There's a line in an old song I like, "Find your way to heaven, I'll meet you when you get there." I know it sounds trite, but there is more than one way up the mountain. And all of the self inflicted masochism I give myself arguing the finer details isn't the path...I'm not sure why I do it, other maybe than the fun of "spirited debate." But to climb the mountain you have to take the steps...you have to DO. It doesn't matter what you believe, it is what you do with what you believe.
Evil isn't a race, or a gender, or a hairstyle, or a tattoo. Evil can be found anywhere. But it isn't everywhere.
It doesn't matter to G!d, I don't believe, if a child is born in Bangladesh, or Timbuktu, or Kilimanjaro, or Bangalore...or downtown 1st world megalopolis. Almost every child will grow up with dreams of having a peaceful life, a fulfilling life, of having a family of their own. Most people are no different at heart than you or I. We all want the same basic things. Some of us are privileged to have some of these things, some of us are not...that doesn't make either of us evil. Evil is when one of us tries to take away those dreams, those chances, those opportunities to have a fulfilling life from the other.
Too many of us have lost touch with our spirit, so many of us don't even realize we have one. It can't be quantified, it isn't taught in textbooks, and renaissance philosophies have spent a great deal of time and effort convincing us that spirit doesn't exist. It exists, and this is not my opinion. I know this, it is a reality in my life since I was a small child. We spend so much effort trying to grow up and distance ourselves from our childhood "foolishness," not realizing that it is when our spirits are so unfettered, unspoiled and unladen that we have such a direct connection to the Heavenly Father. Some may call it guardian angels...the concept points in the same direction. School slowly disconnects us from that, and puberty makes us forget it existed, and philosophy including religion erases any trace - if it can.
I studied advertising for a psychology course (my major is business), and I was taken by a quote from an advertising exec, to the effect of: "good advertising takes away the person's confidence and sells it back to them for the price of the item." Think about that...how much is a Christian Church exactly like that? You can't go to G!d, you have to go through us first, and be sure to drop a few bucks in the tithe collection.
But that's not right. I know, in my heart, that all I have to do is reach out...and G!d is right there. That is the lesson of the repentant man beating his chest, begging G!d forgiveness...He is right there to receive him. G!d isn't with the Priest standing on the corner praying for all the sinners that pass by...that's showboating, self aggrandizement...he who is high will be brought low, he who is first will be made last.
There's a line in an old song I like, "Find your way to heaven, I'll meet you when you get there." I know it sounds trite, but there is more than one way up the mountain. And all of the self inflicted masochism I give myself arguing the finer details isn't the path...I'm not sure why I do it, other maybe than the fun of "spirited debate." But to climb the mountain you have to take the steps...you have to DO. It doesn't matter what you believe, it is what you do with what you believe.
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I don't think he would think this is his best side.
Yes. And so perhaps when any THING becomes forefront, shifting God into second place, or further into the background, may be the basic meaning of idolatory?
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juantoo3
....whys guy.... ʎʇıɹoɥʇnɐ uoıʇsǝnb
A bit simplistic, and misses a lot of nuance.
You asked before if pagans worshiped idols in the past. If we are to believe the Old Testament...yes, they did. Think of it this way, when Paul was "discussing" with Peter about eating food offered to idols...it isn't the food that caused confusion, it was the purpose behind it...so that eating that food was a sin "if it caused (another) to stumble in their faith." So we are to avoid the appearance of idolatry, among other things, even if the particular instance isn't *technically* sinful.
What I see in modern practice, is that the "aid in faith walk" gets carried away. I want to be careful how I go here, but I have personally seen, MANY more times than I care to imagine, instances where an otherwise well intended and sincere faithful person became emotionally attached to an item, plainly an idol.
Now, this is only for example, I wouldn't do this...but if I were to threaten a statue of the Madonna with a sledgehammer, I would get a great deal of flak and negative feedback. *If*, as the argument from Thomas goes, this is *only* an aid to the faith, then it should be inconsequential. The reality is quite the opposite...to the point that such idols *frankly* are paraded around once a year in many, many cultures.
I can go on, but I think this serves the point well enough. If parades and emotional attachment are not clear indicators of "veneration," I don't know what is. It devolves to the point of seeing Jesus' face in a piece of toast or the Madonna in an office building window, and crowds lining up to see and swooning over the opportunity.
Nevertheless, "they" have their interpretation of the 10 Commandments (adjusted to suit their preferences), and I will live by mine. I am not appointed judge, G!d will sort it out in due time. Could be, and gauging by the number of "good" people I've known in my life that happened to be Catholic, most likely they will make it to heaven as well. Again, it is not what you know, it is what you do with what you know. And that is all any of us can do, is apply ourselves according to what we understand.
I understand. There are numerous passages in the Bible about worshipping a piece of wood or stone. So I'm just wondering if anyone ever really did that? Food offered to idols would be offered to the spirit or god being represented by the idol.
Sledgehammering a statue of the holy virgin will be emotionally hurtful because of the violent sentiment towards what the statue represents, not the actual breaking of the statue itself?
Sledgehammering a statue of the holy virgin will be emotionally hurtful because of the violent sentiment towards what the statue represents, not the actual breaking of the statue itself?
. If the carved stone represents something more .... Doesn't that make it an idol?
Today is the Catholic feast of Corpus Christi when the host containing the 'real presence' of Christ is paraded in formal procession from the Abbey with the choir singing and all the priests in their splendid robes.
There are levels. But essentially it's: Here we go out and parade GOD amongst you, lest you forget?
Nowadays most people simply laugh at the whole thing ...
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Bhaktajan II
Hare Krishna Yogi
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The word 'idol' is meant to indicate 'False idol'.
There is quadrillion 'False idols'.
There is and were Absolute idols.
The Royal lineages of pre-western history had them [evidently as per the quagmire of the post-western aka post-Buddhist world stage.
Here is an example of a post-absolute imagery:
Veristic portrait bust of an old man, head covered(capite velato), either a priest or paterfamilias(marble, mid-1st century BC)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_portraiture
---The origin of the realism of Roman portraits may be, according to some scholars, because they evolved from wax death masks. These death masks were taken from bodies and kept in a home altar. Besides wax, masks were made from bronze, marble and terracotta. The molds for the masks were made directly from the deceased, giving historians an accurate representation of typically Roman features.---
Bhaktajan II
Hare Krishna Yogi
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For the sake of imagery, the ancients Aryas had in their own homes and palaces the absolute Deities as an exemplar of yogic purpose ---as on earth and also in the Kingdom of God....
The absolute supreme personality of Godhead and his eternal consort:
Radha and Krishna
The centerpiece of the ancient temples of the Brahminical cultures of yore.
The absolute supreme personality of Godhead and his eternal consort:
Radha and Krishna
The centerpiece of the ancient temples of the Brahminical cultures of yore.
But false to whom?
juantoo3
....whys guy.... ʎʇıɹoɥʇnɐ uoıʇsǝnb
comme ci comme ça
I have no doubt non-Christians could justify themselves using the same arguments.
juantoo3
....whys guy.... ʎʇıɹoɥʇnɐ uoıʇsǝnb
what us? Justify? Gnaw.
I echo the sentiment.
This is the crux, I think. It's a really big question ...
Yep, especially when we open the dialogue to relics — enough 'wood of the true cross' to build an ark, enough nails to hammer it all together!
I feel deeply miffed that Buddhists get this image of wisdom and serenity, and we get the agony of a man crucified.
I once heard somewhere that the Orthodox make much, much more of the Transfiguration than Latins do, that and the Ascension seem so much more positive to me. Crucifix needs a deep understanding to hold it in a proper perspective, otherwise its just "He died for you," which is true, but something to easy to guilt-trip the laity with, and anyone who received a Catholic education in the 50-60s knows what I'm talking about.
Yes. I've done it, with my emphasis on 'the Absolute' and Greek philosophical symbolism. God becomes an intellectual abstraction. Or psychological self-projection, the 'spiritual-but-not-religious', (egoism, anthropomorphism). New Agers did it in bucketloads (opened the gates to all sorts of Romanticism, Naturism and other Utopian Idealisms)... it's so so easy to do ... all sorts of pseudo-piety ...
So an object, a concept, and ideology ... all can become idolatry. Hollywood, the American Dream, Western consumer values is founded on it.