Vatican III

[RJM]

I think the underlying issues are far more complex and widespread than just pedophilia. But yes, I have never understood the reasoning behind a mandate for celibacy. It should be the person's choice...if they wish to be celibate and pursue the clergy, that's fine. If they wish to be married and pursue the clergy, that too should be fine in my view, so long as the marriage doesn't interfere with the duties and expectations of the flock.

Well, the mandate is that a married person will put the needs of their family ahead of everything else, including their priesthood.

Changing that would mean changing the ancient vows of poverty, chastity and obedience. Unless chastity could be understood as marital fidelity ?

 

[Thomas]

Celibacy of the priesthood is based on the idea that a man with a wife and eleven children will, most naturally, have most of his energy in that direction, and put them before his sacred calling, etc.

Yes, and divert funds away from the parish, and leave the bishop with an obligation to care for his widow and children, etc.

An unmarried priesthood wasn't a rule for a thousand years, and still isn't in the Orthodox communions, although a married priest cannot become a bishop.

In real life its leading in many male 'religious' -- as the clergy are called -- to repressed sexuality wildly breaking free, often in the direction of nice looking boys. Its a very sad situation, embarrassing to all Catholics.

Absolutely.

But also, 'in real life', the figures reflect the national average of abuses by those in positions of authority in institutions. There's no evidence that the rule of celibacy is a cause or even a significant factor. I would have thought heterosexual priests who struggle with celibacy don't turn into paedophiles, they have affairs with adults?

It has been recognised that predatory paedophiles (indeed sexual predators generally), will accept whatever's required of them if it puts them in a position to access children. Church. Social work. Charitable NGO's. The 'rewards' make it all worthwhile.

The Catholic Church is in the spotlight after some high-profile cases. So have UK media personalities of the 70s. When I was a kid, it was scout-masters. Today it's the movie business. The music industry hasn't been touched yet ...

... but child abuse of boys by Catholic clergy would have to be very high on the agenda;

No need. It's a very serious offence. What shows the Church in a bad light is the tendency, common to all bureaucracies, to 'cover up' and hide the truth for the sake of her 'reputation'. That's unacceptable, and actually exacerbates the problem.

Would allowing married priests simply solve it?

No, wouldn't alter anyting, as far as the studies seem to show.

 

[Thomas]

It is my understanding that a married minister can convert to Catholicism and become a married priest...that to me defeats the stated logic.

Yes, there are a number of technicalities that are, frankly, nonsensical.

 

[Thomas]

Agreed...but how? Sex is a natural, and important, part of life.

Phew ... if I knew the answer to that one!
As Steve Martin once said, 'Love is the best thing money can buy.' Sex has been commodified.

I do agree there is an inordinate amount of focus in the media.

Yep. Sex sells. When it comes to 'learning the facts of life', the 'norm' is being set by the porn industry, apparently.

But then the media isn't worried about truth, or facts, or promoting spiritual or religious endeavors - while hiding behind freedom of speech.

No disagreement here. Utterly irresponsible on so many counts.

I think equally in dire need of throttling back, is violence.

Agreed.

 

[RJM]

Yes, and divert funds away from the parish, and leave the bishop with an obligation to care for his widow and children, etc.

An unmarried priesthood wasn't a rule for a thousand years, and still isn't in the Orthodox communions, although a married priest cannot become a bishop.


Absolutely.

But also, 'in real life', the figures reflect the national average of abuses by those in positions of authority in institutions. There's no evidence that the rule of celibacy is a cause or even a significant factor. I would have thought heterosexual priests who struggle with celibacy don't turn into paedophiles, they have affairs with adults?

It has been recognised that predatory paedophiles (indeed sexual predators generally), will accept whatever's required of them if it puts them in a position to access children. Church. Social work. Charitable NGO's. The 'rewards' make it all worthwhile.

The Catholic Church is in the spotlight after some high-profile cases. So have UK media personalities of the 70s. When I was a kid, it was scout-masters. Today it's the movie business. The music industry hasn't been touched yet ...


No need. It's a very serious offence. What shows the Church in a bad light is the tendency, common to all bureaucracies, to 'cover up' and hide the truth for the sake of her 'reputation'. That's unacceptable, and actually exacerbates the problem.


No, wouldn't alter anyting, as far as the studies seem to show.

Thank you.
Please note my correction from 'Vatican III' to 'next Ecumenical Council' on earlier post.

I've never trusted scout masters, lol. What you say is true about paedophiles finding positions that allow them access to children. But I do think the repressed sexuality of vowed celibacy can lead to bottled-up sexual energies breaking out in weird ways.

'I wish everyone could be (naturally celibate) as I am,' said Paul. With the obvious implication that not many could be like him?

That's what I'm getting at by suggesting married priests may go at least a bit of the
way to helping solve the (perceived) problem of paedophile clergy in the Catholic Church -- whether real by national comparison to other organisations, or not?

I don't think the cover-ups are the only reason for public perception of paedophile Catholic clergy. The cover-ups don't help. But what society treats as a serious crime, the Church treats as a sin, with the same degree of compassion any other sinner gets?

I do think it won't be long before the CC allows married priests?

 

[Thomas]

Well, the mandate is that a married person will put the needs of their family ahead of everything else, including their priesthood.

But is that the case?

I'm not sure it is, or not sufficient reason to say a priest cannot be married. In every walk of life, we see people who balance the needs of job and family. People who serve the community are no different. Doctor's, for instance?

And frankly, if a particular profession results in significant numbers of marriage failures, then it's about time we looked at that profession, and not simply shrug and say 'it's the job'.

Changing that would mean changing the ancient vows of poverty, chastity and obedience. Unless chastity could be understood as marital fidelity ?

Yes, it's as simple as that.

 

[Thomas]

But I do think the repressed sexuality of vowed celibacy can lead to bottled-up sexual energies breaking out in weird ways.

Does it? I'm not sure the stats support that as an argument?

'I wish everyone could be (naturally celibate) as I am,' said Paul. With the obvious implication that not many could be like him?

Yes. And that a stable married relationship was better than an unstable any kind of existence. The Disciples were married. Priestly celibacy was called for in the 4th century (although they could remain married), and codified in the 12th.

But it is a rule, not a dogma, therefore it can be changed.

That's what I'm getting at by suggesting married priests may go at least a bit of the
way to helping solve the (perceived) problem of paedophile clergy in the Catholic Church -- whether real by national comparison to other organisations, or not?

I don't think we should rely on one erroneous assumption to overwrite another erroneous assumption?

I don't think the cover-ups are the only reason for public perception of paedophile Catholic clergy.

Well a media feeding-frenzy doesn't help. The public perception is because everyone else says it. There was a time when every stand-up comedian had a 'kiddie-fiddler' comment ... it's just cheap and lazy.

The cover-ups don't help. But what society treats as a serious crime, the Church treats as a sin, with the same degree of compassion any other sinner gets?

Yes.

I do think it won't be long before the CC allows married priests?

We've already got them, via a technicality.

I think the CC will allow married men into the priesthood, but I'm not sure they'll allow priests to marry. The Orthodox don't. The current popes have all been firmly against it. Francis says it's non-negotiable and tried to pass if off as though it was a dogma, which it ain't.

So I think married men will be allowed, but no marriage after ordination.

 

[Thomas]

Celibacy and the Church

First Century
Peter and the apostles were, for the most part, married men.
The NT seems to indicate women presiding at eucharistic meals.

Fourth Century
306 Council of Elvira. Decree #43: a priest who sleeps with his wife the night before Mass will lose his job.
325 Council of Nicea:
After ordination a priest could not marry.
352 Council of Laodicea:
Women are not to be ordained (suggesting they were)
385 Pope Siricius leaves his wife in order to become pope.
Decreed that priests may no longer sleep with their wives.

Fifth Century
401-St. Augustine wrote, Nothing is so powerful in drawing the spirit of a man downwards as the caresses of a woman.
St Augustine had a son by an un-named consort, much to the despair of his mother, St Monica. They never married, and the mother entered a convent. The son died, aged 17. Augustine later converted to Christianity.

Sixth Century
567 2nd Council of Tours:
any cleric found in bed with his wife would be excommunicated for a year and reduced to the lay state.
580 Pope Pelagius II:
his policy was not to bother married priests as long as they did not hand over church property to wives or children.
590 Pope Gregory the Great
said that all sexual desire is sinful in itself (meaning that sexual desire is intrinsically evil?)

Seventh Century
France: documents show that the majority of priest were married.

Eighth Century
St. Boniface reported to the pope that in Germany almost no bishop or priest was celibate.

Ninth Century
836 Council of Aix-la-Chapelle openly admitted that abortions and infanticide took place in convents and monasteries to cover up activities of uncelibate clerics.
St. Ulrich, a holy bishop, argued from scripture and common sense that the only way to purify the church from the worst excesses of celibacy was to permit priests to marry.

Eleventh Century
1045 Benedict IX
dispensed himself from celibacy and resigned in order to marry.
1074 Pope Gregory VII
said anyone to be ordained must first pledge celibacy: priests [must] first escape from the clutches of their wives.
1095 Pope Urban II
had priests wives sold into slavery, children were abandoned.

Twelfth Century
1123 Pope Calistus II:
First Lateran Council decreed that clerical marriages were invalid.
1139 Pope Innocent II:
Second Lateran Council confirmed the previous councils decree.

Fourteenth Century
Bishop Pelagio
complains that women are still ordained and hearing confessions.

Fifteenth Century
Transition; 50% of priests are married and accepted by the people.

Sixteenth Century
1545 Council of Trent
states that celibacy and virginity are superior to marriage.

Twentieth Century
1930 Pope Pius XI:
sex can be good and holy.
1951 Pope Pius XII:
married Lutheran pastor ordained catholic priest in Germany.
1962 Pope John XXIII:
Vatican Council II
marriage is equal to virginity.
1966-Pope Paul VI:
celibacy dispensations.
1970s
Ludmilla Javorova and several other Czech women ordained to serve needs of women imprisoned by Communists.
1978 Pope John Paul II:
puts a freeze on dispensations.
1980 Married Anglican/Episcopal pastors are ordained as catholic priests in the U.S.; also in Canada and England in 1994.

Popes who were married
St. Peter, Apostle
St. Felix III 483-492 (2 children)
St. Hormidas 514-523 (1 son)
St. Silverus (Antonia) 536-537
Hadrian II 867-872 (1 daughter)
Clement IV 1265-1268 (2 daughters)
Felix V 1439-1449 (1 son)

Popes who were the sons of other popes, other clergy
St. Damascus I 366-348 (St. Lorenzo, priest)
St. Innocent I 401-417 (Anastasius I)
Boniface 418-422 (son of a priest)
St. Felix 483-492 (son of a priest)
Anastasius II 496-498 (son of a priest)
St. Agapitus I 535-536 (Gordiaous, priest)
St. Silverus 536-537 (St. Homidas, pope)
Deusdedit 882-884 (son of a priest)
Boniface VI 896-896 (Hadrian, bishop)
John XI 931-935 (Pope Sergius III)
John XV 989-996 (Leo, priest)

Popes who had illegitimate children after 1139
Innocent VIII 1484-1492 several children
Alexander VI 1492-1503 several children
Julius 1503-1513 3 daughters
Paul III 1534-1549 3 sons, 1 daughter
Pius IV 1559-1565 3 sons
Gregory XIII 1572-1585 1 son

Myths and Facts
Myth: All priests take a vow of celibacy.
Fact: Most priests do not take a vow. It is a promise made before the bishop.

Myth: Clerical celibacy has been the norm since the Second Lateran Council in 1139.
Fact: Priests and even popes still continued to marry and have children for several hundred years after that date. In fact, the Eastern Catholic Church still has married priests.
In the Latin Church, one may be a married priest if:
one is a Protestant pastor first; or
if one is a life-long Catholic but promises never again to have sexual relations with ones wife.

 

[wil]

d put gender first — establish man and woman as equals, to start with, and then gender determination as not (hetero) male as one thing, (hetero) female as another, and everything else as wrong

All humans as equals, with ever changing understandings of biology and sexual preference any verbiage will just have to be constantly readdressed. http://www.transstudent.org/definitions/

 

[wil]

Can I take a minute to confirm this is not just a topic for.discussion in a thread?

Has my learned conservative Catholic friend actually been asked to provide topic input for the holy see? And is his suggestion actually gender and sexual preference equality?

Are there cameras here? Is my leg getting pulled? Is this a prank?

Cause if it is not, this man I've argued with for over a decade just made a leap in my esteem, and I feel elevated by simply exchanging electronic bits with him.

 

[A Cup Of Tea]

352 Council of Laodicea:
Women are not to be ordained (suggesting they were)

Is there anything there besides the verdict? Their reasoning or some such?

 

[RJM]

Celibacy and the Church

First Century
Peter and the apostles were, for the most part, married men.
The NT seems to indicate women presiding at eucharistic meals.

Fourth Century
306 Council of Elvira. Decree #43: a priest who sleeps with his wife the night before Mass will lose his job.
325 Council of Nicea:
After ordination a priest could not marry.
352 Council of Laodicea:
Women are not to be ordained (suggesting they were)
385 Pope Siricius leaves his wife in order to become pope.
Decreed that priests may no longer sleep with their wives.

Fifth Century
401-St. Augustine wrote, Nothing is so powerful in drawing the spirit of a man downwards as the caresses of a woman.
St Augustine had a son by an un-named consort, much to the despair of his mother, St Monica. They never married, and the mother entered a convent. The son died, aged 17. Augustine later converted to Christianity.

Sixth Century
567 2nd Council of Tours:
any cleric found in bed with his wife would be excommunicated for a year and reduced to the lay state.
580 Pope Pelagius II:
his policy was not to bother married priests as long as they did not hand over church property to wives or children.
590 Pope Gregory the Great
said that all sexual desire is sinful in itself (meaning that sexual desire is intrinsically evil?)

Seventh Century
France: documents show that the majority of priest were married.

Eighth Century
St. Boniface reported to the pope that in Germany almost no bishop or priest was celibate.

Ninth Century
836 Council of Aix-la-Chapelle openly admitted that abortions and infanticide took place in convents and monasteries to cover up activities of uncelibate clerics.
St. Ulrich, a holy bishop, argued from scripture and common sense that the only way to purify the church from the worst excesses of celibacy was to permit priests to marry.

Eleventh Century
1045 Benedict IX
dispensed himself from celibacy and resigned in order to marry.
1074 Pope Gregory VII
said anyone to be ordained must first pledge celibacy: priests [must] first escape from the clutches of their wives.
1095 Pope Urban II
had priests wives sold into slavery, children were abandoned.

Twelfth Century
1123 Pope Calistus II:
First Lateran Council decreed that clerical marriages were invalid.
1139 Pope Innocent II:
Second Lateran Council confirmed the previous councils decree.

Fourteenth Century
Bishop Pelagio
complains that women are still ordained and hearing confessions.

Fifteenth Century
Transition; 50% of priests are married and accepted by the people.

Sixteenth Century
1545 Council of Trent
states that celibacy and virginity are superior to marriage.

Twentieth Century
1930 Pope Pius XI:
sex can be good and holy.
1951 Pope Pius XII:
married Lutheran pastor ordained catholic priest in Germany.
1962 Pope John XXIII:
Vatican Council II
marriage is equal to virginity.
1966-Pope Paul VI:
celibacy dispensations.
1970s
Ludmilla Javorova and several other Czech women ordained to serve needs of women imprisoned by Communists.
1978 Pope John Paul II:
puts a freeze on dispensations.
1980 Married Anglican/Episcopal pastors are ordained as catholic priests in the U.S.; also in Canada and England in 1994.

Popes who were married
St. Peter, Apostle
St. Felix III 483-492 (2 children)
St. Hormidas 514-523 (1 son)
St. Silverus (Antonia) 536-537
Hadrian II 867-872 (1 daughter)
Clement IV 1265-1268 (2 daughters)
Felix V 1439-1449 (1 son)

Popes who were the sons of other popes, other clergy
St. Damascus I 366-348 (St. Lorenzo, priest)
St. Innocent I 401-417 (Anastasius I)
Boniface 418-422 (son of a priest)
St. Felix 483-492 (son of a priest)
Anastasius II 496-498 (son of a priest)
St. Agapitus I 535-536 (Gordiaous, priest)
St. Silverus 536-537 (St. Homidas, pope)
Deusdedit 882-884 (son of a priest)
Boniface VI 896-896 (Hadrian, bishop)
John XI 931-935 (Pope Sergius III)
John XV 989-996 (Leo, priest)

Popes who had illegitimate children after 1139
Innocent VIII 1484-1492 several children
Alexander VI 1492-1503 several children
Julius 1503-1513 3 daughters
Paul III 1534-1549 3 sons, 1 daughter
Pius IV 1559-1565 3 sons
Gregory XIII 1572-1585 1 son

Myths and Facts
Myth: All priests take a vow of celibacy.
Fact: Most priests do not take a vow. It is a promise made before the bishop.

Myth: Clerical celibacy has been the norm since the Second Lateran Council in 1139.
Fact: Priests and even popes still continued to marry and have children for several hundred years after that date. In fact, the Eastern Catholic Church still has married priests.
In the Latin Church, one may be a married priest if:
one is a Protestant pastor first; or
if one is a life-long Catholic but promises never again to have sexual relations with ones wife.

That is impressive

 

[RJM]

All humans as equals, with ever changing understandings of biology and sexual preference any verbiage will just have to be constantly readdressed. http://www.transstudent.org/definitions/

But where the CC may define ALL sex as sinful that is performed outside the married act as potentially procreative, it knows all people are sinners. There is compassion, not judgement. There are lots of gay church-going Catholics. Lots of cohabiting and unmarried parents.

It's where I demand the Church reverse its policy, because I like whatever it is I like, and so the Church must be wrong about it, that the problem happens?

People don't expect the Buddhist or Hindu faiths to change their basic tenets, to keep up with the times?

Really not evangelizing, just outlining CC practice, as I understand it.

Edited ...

 

[A Cup Of Tea]

If I can translate as a liberal guy: humans, please be cautious when you form casual sexual relationships, there can be a lot of consequences there you might not be ready for. We recommend that you form deep meaningful relationships that you can nurture and be nurtured by.

How close am I? I have no problem with moral codes interpreted by a human institution, as long as we are free to disregard these interpretations and discuss the many consequences of moral codes.

Also, Thomas, please don't comment on whether or not you have been commissioned by the Vatican. It's just too funny!

 

[RJM]

All faiths teach that desire (for worldly things) is the root of all unhappiness.

Birds nest in season: the male builds and then he feed the female while she hatches the eggs.

 

[StevePame]

Yes, there are a number of technicalities that are, frankly, nonsensical.

Growing up, I attended a Catholic church where the priest was new, made a comment about his kids, and then had to quickly stop and explain the situation once the congregation's collective gasp ended. If I remember correctly, he was a Lutheran minister who decided to become Catholic, got Papal dispensation, and had to not have sex with his wife anymore.

I don't know how that fits with the technicalities, but it blew my mind 20+ years ago.

 

[RJM]

Growing up, I attended a Catholic church where the priest was new, made a comment about his kids, and then had to quickly stop and explain the situation once the congregation's collective gasp ended. If I remember correctly, he was a Lutheran minister who decided to become Catholic, got Papal dispensation, and had to not have sex with his wife anymore.

I don't know how that fits with the technicalities, but it blew my mind 20+ years ago.

So the original purpose of the celibacy vow is lost: ie: to enable single devotion to God without family distractions -- and replaced by focusing on sex, lol. Fairly typical, probably.

 

[Thomas]

Is there anything there besides the verdict? Their reasoning or some such?

There are a couple of commentaries

Canon 11: Presbytides, as they are called, or female presidents, are not to be appointed in the Church.

Balsamon (Eastern Orthodox, 12th century):
Reads 'presbytides' as selected and respected women who oversaw other women to keep 'good and modest order'.

He further coments that: "from their habit of using improperly that which was proper, either through their arrogance or through their base self-seeking, scandal arose. Therefore the Fathers prohibited the existence in the Church thereafter of any more such women as are called presbytides or presidents."
The question arises, did their male counterparts never, 'through arrogance or base self-seeking', give rise to scandal? I would think, considering how many canons at so many councils were about how deacons, presbyters and bishops should conduct themselves, that there were scandals and politics going on somewhere pretty well all the time! So this strikes me as sexist.

He goes on:
"But for woman to teach in a Catholic Church, where a multitude of men is gathered together, and women of different opinions, is, in the highest degree, indecorous and pernicious."
Again, I see this as cultural patriarchy emerging.

Even by the first millennium, there was some discussion about what the term meant.

Epiphanius (310-403) in his "Against Heresies" (lxxix. 4) says that women had never been allowed to offer sacrifice, as the Collyridians presumed to do, but were only allowed to minister. This suggests there were no women presbyters by the 4th century. There were deaconesses in the Church, and even if called ‘presbytides,' this term must be clearly distinguished from presbyteresses. ‘Presbytides' designates age, as seniors.

 

[wil]

All faiths teach that desire (for worldly things) is the root of all unhappiness.

Birds nest in season: the male builds and then he feed the female while she hatches the eggs.

. But roosters are nonstop

 

[RJM]

. But roosters are nonstop