Vatican III

[A Cup Of Tea]

No

 

[RJM]

No

Lol. Never know when you are ...

 

[A Cup Of Tea]

Thanks!

 

[RJM]

...
(I personally hold the opinion that similar rituals can arise separately from each other and that it is more likely than that rituals can be traced back to a common, historical, source)

But in Christ all previous myths, Osiris etc, come to synchronicity. It's the closing of the circle, after which no more needs to be proved or said?

 

[RJM]

The joy of Catholicism is in the encouragement to explore, in the confident certainty Christ is there, instead of being disallowed from reading certain literature or thinking certain thoughts.

This is not the same as declaring one's own opinion to be the only truth.

The CC states what it has decided but it does not disallow argument or individual thinking -- has never discouraged mental exploration. I've been there since year dot, and in my opinion it's largely a popular myth, imo.

If a Catholic nun or priest wants to spend time in a Buddhist monastery; it will be encouraged, not forbidden. Monastery libraries contain a wealth of books of all denominations and religions.

Catholics range from conservative to progressive, lots of discussion.

What people ignore is that for all its faults and mistakes the CC is not the evil overlord many portray.

It is the CC that has been the shell of the nut that has preserved the scriptures and the light of Christ down through all the centuties. It will continue long after all of us and the American right-wing televangelist prosperity preachers are gone. Imo

edited ...

 

[A Cup Of Tea]

But in Christ all previous myths, Osiris etc, come to synchronicity. It's the closing of the circle, after which no more needs to be proved or said?

But that's a theological interpretation, and I'm not Christian so I don't need to go there. But don't worry, Thomas is going to hit you with a few thousand characters soon enough. good luck!

 

[StevePame]

Happy to see religion being discussed on the forum and not just politics....

 

[Thomas]

Perhaps Jesus strange words to Nicodemus in John 3, about being born again of water and the Holy Spirit may refer to the immortality yogas, such as kundalini yoga, which deal with conserving the sexual energy and lifting it upward, opening spiritual centres (chakras) until a new immortal self-being is born.

W-e-l-l ... we need to tread carefully here.

I am loathe to interpret Scripture through what is, effectively, an alien lens. There is virtue in comparison, but there is danger of misinterpretation if we let our understanding of 'that' doctrine influence our understanding of 'this' one.

So ... I would say neither He nor Nicodemus had any inkling of 'immortality yogas', 'kindalini' or 'chakras', and rather than look at the Scripture in those terms, I'd look to see what is, if indeed there is, an equivalent?

So I woud look at the Hebrew teachings on the soul, specifically:

nefesh (Hebrew) | psyche (Greek) | anima (Latin)
The animal or sanguinary soul ... every 'living' creature has this soul.
"for the life (nefesh) of every creature is the blood of it" (Leviticus 17:14)
"for the blood is the life (nefesh)" (Deuteronomy 122:23).

Ruach | nous/pneuma | spiritus
The mental soul
The term 'ruach' is used in many senses and can only be properly understood against in the total context of scripture. It means 'breath' (in the anthropological sense) or 'wind' (in the spiritual), and as such can express the principle of life, rather than an individual being:
"In whose hand [is] the soul (nefesh) of every living thing, and the breath (ruach)] of all mankind" (Job 12:10)
Ruach can imply a transcendant, transpersonal, quality, and as such we have not necessarily risen above the cosmological. Ruach in reference to the Spirit of God is Divine, but ruach in reference to the spirit of man is not. Further 'ruach' in the human sense can encompass error, "They also that erred in spirit [ruach]" (Isaias 29:44) and this can signify disorder, passion, even madness, "Terrors are turned upon me: they pursue my soul as the wind [ruach]" (Job 30:15), or "Behold, they are all vanity; their works are nothing: their molten images are wind [ruach] and confusion," (Isaias 41:29).

Neshamah (pneuma/pnoe | spiritus/spiraculum/habitus)
The spiritualised soul
Neshamah is the breath, be it human or divine. In Genesis God made man and 'breathed' into him, but the breath of God must necessarily convey more than simple animation. The Divine Breath not only animated humanity but conferred upon it a sanctified state, a state of grace (the descent of the Holy Spirit as 'tongues of flame' continues this idea), our Adamic or Primordial state.
Here great care must be taken to differentiate between neshamah as a natural quality of the human spirit, and neshamah as a supernatural quality infused by the Divine Breath, a situation made more difficult by ther apparent interchangeability of ruach and neshamah:
"All the while my breath [neshamah] is in me, and the spirit [ruach] of God is in my nostrils;"
Job 27:3

Whilst neshamah sanctifies man, it remains in and of itself Divine and forms no part of his individual nature: "The Spirit breatheth where he will and thou hearest his voice: but thou knowest not whence he cometh and whither he goeth. So is every one that is born of the Spirit." (John 3:8)
It is through neshamah we receive our life from God, it is in neshamah we participate in the Divine Life, and it is through neshamah we return to Him, "That which is born of the flesh is flesh: and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit," (John 3:6) upon the breath of prayer: "Let every thing that hath breath [neshamah] praise the Lord. Praise ye the Lord."

The distinction — which might be my perception rather than the doctrinal teaching — between the Abrahamic and the Asiatic doctrines is that of jiriki-tariki —

From wiki:
Jiriki (自力, one's own strength) is the Japanese Buddhist term for 'self power', the ability to achieve liberation or enlightenment (in other words, to reach nirvana) through one's own efforts.

Tariki (他力 other power, outside help) is what in Abrahamics would refer to the indwelling Spirit of God (Hebrew: shekinah, Christian Holy Ghost, Moslem baraka).

Jiriki is very much urged and practiced in Zen Buddhism. In Pure Land Buddhism, tariki often refers to the power of the Amida Buddha.
The two ways are not to be seen as mutually exclusive, or jiriki seen as "better" than tariki, although its appeal and perceived superiority to anti-religious sentiment in the west is undeniable.

The baseline for me is that whilst human nature is not in and of itself divine – it is a created nature after all – it is open to the Divine.

But only the Divine knows Itself — It's too exalted for a human nature to grasp:
"... but you have received the spirit of adoption of sons, whereby we cry: Abba (Father)."
(Romans 8:15) and "And because you are sons, God (the Father) hath sent the Spirit (God the Holy Ghost) of his Son (God the Son) into your hearts, crying: Abba, Father" (Galatians 4:6).

The point here is that it is the Holy Spirit who cries, He cries in us and we are caught up in that cry.

An aphorism of the Fathers is the Holy Spirit reveals the Son, the Son reveals the Father. Without the indwelling Shekinah/Holy Ghost/Baraka, when we see Jesus, all we see is the man.

Jiriki, self-power, is in undertaking the necessary discipline, to clean house, to invite the Holy Spirit into the soul, which then becomes a temple.

+++

There is in the kabbala two further determinations of the soul - but these are degrees or modes of neshamah:

Hayah
The living soul
An awareness of the divine life force itself.

Yehidah
The one soul
In which one can achieve as full a union with God as is possible.
Both rabbinic and kabbalistic works posit that there are also additional non-permanent states (infused or inspired) of the soul that people can develop on certain occasions. These spiritual qualities play no part in any eschatalogical scheme, but are mentioned for completeness:

Ruach HaKodesh
The spirit of holiness
A state of the soul that makes prophecy possible.

Note: as healing is considered among the Divine Gifts of the Spirit, then I would posit, in accord with Rabbinic, Kabbalistic and Christian doctrine, that the 'realm' of healing is that of the ruach, which locates its function in the greater scheme of things.

Neshamah Yeseira
The supplemental soul that a Jew experiences on Shabbat. It makes possible an enhanced spiritual enjoyment of the day. This exists only when one is observing Shabbat; it can be lost and gained depending on one's observance.

Neshamah Kedosha
A spiritual quality related to the study and fulfillment of the Torah commandments. It exists only when one studies and follows Torah; it can be lost and gained depending on one's study and observance.

Note:
These two give a view of neshamah - whilst this spiritual quality is enhanced with regard to ruach, it is still within the human domain, but can aspire or attain to higher qualities when engaged corectly in 'higher' things. The former, 'Neshamah Yeseira' is liturgical (the proper observation of the sabbath) and again 'Neshamah Kedosha' is a state in contemplation of the Divine Mysteries - which again are most present and profound in the liturgy of the tradition in question.

Something to be going on with ...

 

[Thomas]

But in Christ all previous myths, Osiris etc, come to synchronicity. It's the closing of the circle, after which no more needs to be proved or said?

Agreed ... but don't tell the others ...

 

[RJM]

Yes, lots to go on with.

I didn't really mean that Jesus was referring directly to eastern immortality yoga but that the concept of being born anew by water and the Holy Spirit -- by channelling sexual/material (desire) energies inward and upward (instead of outward and downward) in a purification process of transforming 'material lead' into 'spiritual gold' is perhaps an interpretation, and so perhaps again the root of the celibacy of priesthood.

Yes, 'heaven' is achieved by grace not by personal effort but all faiths stress the need to separate God from mammon.

The interesting thing is that Jesus was surprised that Nicodemus, a teacher of his people, didn't know about it?

But Christ closes the circle to encompass all the partial truths of all previous faiths.

Something like that?

 

[Thomas]

... by channelling sexual/material (desire) energies inward and upward (instead of outward and downward) in a purification process of transforming 'material lead' into 'spiritual gold' is perhaps an interpretation, and so perhaps again the root of the celibacy of priesthood.

A spiritual alchemy? That's an interesting comment, and one worth considering.

The Catholic Church requires celibacy, but the Eastern does not. It wasn't a requirement at the outset, and only became a rule about the turn of the first millennium.

In most types of Buddhism, monks and nuns must remain celibate. And some schools of Taoism, and some in Hinduism require celibacy. Some Brahmans can marry, others can't. Jainism encourages celibacy of monks, but not of laymen.

Judaism, Islam and the Bahá'í do not require it.

And then again, some schools have the apparent opposite – Tantra? And the Greek Mysteries were somewhat orgiastic ...

 

[RJM]

A spiritual alchemy? That's an interesting comment, and one worth considering ...

It's nothing new

 

[RJM]

@Thomas: Your posts have led me towards a proper understanding of the Catholic faith and how the Catholic doctrine has been misunderstood and abused.

Your inquisition thread is hugely instructive and your quietly civilized stance all those years ago against the abuse of someone like the obnoxiously superior and insulting @taijasi in the

https://www.interfaith.org/community/threads/14974/

today unearthed by @wil is greatly respected by hopefully many others beside just myself.

Just letting you know. All respect, brother. Long may you run ...

 

[wil]

Without tempering you can't hold an edge.

Blades and insults clash much when cults collide.