Vatican III
- Thread starter Thomas
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Oops, surely not kicking the can, if Thomas wants that discussion no problems...
As to death with dignity, I advocate a cruise ship, where grandpa and or grandma can take the whole family, party the week away have a final nights reunion, go to sleep, get cremated and the fam returns with a tan and an urn
As to death with dignity, I advocate a cruise ship, where grandpa and or grandma can take the whole family, party the week away have a final nights reunion, go to sleep, get cremated and the fam returns with a tan and an urn
juantoo3
....whys guy.... ʎʇıɹoɥʇnɐ uoıʇsǝnb
They are most certainly welcome to chime in at any time, but I don't think the conversation should halt because they don't feel the need to provide their input.Tea said:
juantoo3
....whys guy.... ʎʇıɹoɥʇnɐ uoıʇsǝnb
OK, should the Council condone or condemn the sale of aborted fetal tissue as a commodity, for sale to the highest bidder?
Why or why not?
Why or why not?
Mine too ... but the issues are that those same adults who abuse their children will also abuse their elders and treat euthanasia as a means of unburdening themselves, freeing up property, cashing in the inheritance, etc. Many voices in all areas of social work have highlighted the very real risk.
Of course, in the old days without so much oversight, disposing of unwanted babies was customary (cf the letter from a Roman legionary to his wife, found on Hadrian's Wall, on hearding she's pregnant: "If it's a boy, keep it, if a girl, drown it ... disposal of the elderly was not so problematic either).
I think so. Get contraception accepted. The moral principle remains the same — it's a wrong — but I would argue for a 'margin' that allows the lay person to make their own moral choices, be it contraception, or end of life.
Medicos do this all the time. My uncle passed around 4.00am, not long after his morphine shot. The medicos prescribe painkillers on the basis of relief of suffering, with the knowledge that at some point, one of those shots is going to tip the balance. It's called palliative care. But that's a long way from Dr Shipman.
Two wrongs don't make a right. Although, in a purely pragmatic sense, they do. That's politics for ya!
It's to do with 'life'. In the case of contraception, prevention is seen as interfering with the process?
Yep. It was quite a while before I realised that all religions do that, and then that all social groups do that ... marry within the community to produce more 'people like us' ...
Quite.
Ooh, that sounds a bit Catlick!
In the UK Marie Stopes was a campaigner for women's rights. She founded the first birth control clinic in Britain. She opposed abortion, arguing that the prevention of conception was all that was needed.
She was also a hardline eugenicist and something of a fascist. Her argument for access to birth control was to control the population of the working classes, who were breeding without restraint. When her son announced his engagement to a woman who was short-sighted, Stopes disowned him.
My father too, Thomas. Such a sad time. I am grateful to the nurse (from St Luke's) who put the drip in his arm.
I'd have to check. Men can put away their wives, but can wives put away their husbands? A woman's testimony was not valid in a court of law, there had to be at least one other female witness ... a tough one, especially when rape is not usually done before an audience.
I'll pass that on.
Put in those terms, no. It's trafficking. There are a number of secular laws which rule against this.
The far broader issue, which you're probably hinting at, is should the Church condone or condemn the acquisition of aborted fetal tissue for medical research? There's a current Vatican document here which raises such issues.
It's a tough time.
In my dad's ward, they rather considerately moved the next expected to go to a bay by the door. The trolley uses to move the deceased had squeaky wheels! So he feared being moved ...
A young doctor said to my mum that there was nothing more they could do. He could go home, the hospital would provide oxygen and breathing equipment to ease his suffering. Sadly for my mother, she met an 'immovable object' in the shape of a ward nurse who declared there was no such equipment currently available. Sadly for said nurse, she met an 'irresistible force' in the shape of my beloved, who was chauffeuring. Conversation along the lines of 'where is it available, then? Stores. Where are the stores? Other side of the site, we have no porters. No problem, I have a car ... eventually oxygen was found, dad went home and passed 36 hours later, in his own bed.
(Aside: On the character of my beloved. She was accompanying a friend who was taking the ashes of her 16 year old son to be sprinkled on Manchester United's football ground. For some reason, the ashes were being conveyed in a hearse, with a driver and attendant from the funeral home. Half way there, the hearse broke down ... my beloved then got on the mobile and began orchestrating a least-painless resolution and recovery. At one point, one of the men was laughing. 'What's so funny', she asked. 'We're trying to decide', one of them said, 'were you trained in the police or the military?' As it happens, neither. She's just like that ... )
A Cup Of Tea
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So I see three distinct levels: abortion, contraception and celibacy. Each with quite a leap between them. Abortion is an absolute no-no in the Church, contraception seems to be a simple no (?), and celibacy is in some situations commended. Is my connection of the three theologically off the mark or is there some commentary on this?
It is sad of course, but mostly hilarious. It might be my morbid side.
I think I love her!
Er, yes and no? Abortion is a no-no, contraception a no-no. There's more allowance in the confessional for the latter, as it's a prevention rather than an intervention.
The Church's view of 'the rhythm method' I've always found somewhat questionable, as it seems the sole purpose of intercourse is the generation of children, so intercourse when the woman is unable to conceive seems a 'workaround', and the intention not to conceive is the same. I do not accept the idea that God had engineered things for just that purpose — all animals have their procreative seasons, and if I were engineering things I'd have a situation where men and women come 'on heat' once a year or something, rather than enable them to engage in 'naughtiness' at the drop of a hat!
Young girls are able to conceive at an age when their physiology is not yet up to the rigours of child-bearing. I was on the receiving end of an impassioned lecture from a friend, an editor in the medical profession, who went through the list of long term and sometimes chronic health issues caused by girls falling pregnant before they're fully grown. Just more evidence of the fact we were not micro-managed at this level, so there needs to be more than simply falling back on a black-and-white view of the issues.
As I understand it, based on recent reading, monks and nuns take a vow of celibacy, whereas priests 'give their word', which is not quite the same thing.
Whilst the Orthodox idea that sexual continence is a charism, a gift of God, and not a given with the vocation to the priesthood, is somewhat dubious — I regard it somewhere along the line of asexuality which is all part and parcel of sexual variance in the species — I think the idea that all priests, when you think of the numbers involved to manage a global religion, can practice continence is simply asking too much.
There's no evidence to affirm the idea that enforced celibacy leads to sexual misconduct (specifically one leading to the idea that 'priest' is a synonym of 'paedophile' — and I know one priest personally who was beaten up on just that premise), my mum reliably informs me that the requirement does create stresses that the individual needs to manage, not the least chronic loneliness, and that it does lead to other tensions, such as ill-temper and alcohol abuse, etc.
In her view, in many cases a priest would do his job better if he were married, and I tend to think she's probably right.
On the other hand, whilst seminaries have been advised to 'weed out' homosexuals in the community, this too is wrong, as homosexuality by inclination does not necessarily lead to the act — any more than heterosexuality — and certainly not paedophilia, which is practiced by men regardless of their sexual orientation (other than asexuality).
My sister's parish was 'dead in the water' as far as community went, until a quite 'camp' young priest (possibly homosexual, although a 'camp' nature does not mean it's a given) got things moving on all fronts, and now its healthy, thriving and in his spirits, a service within the broader community.
We must get away from this idea that one is either 'straight' or 'gay', and there's no half measures. Nature is so amply supplied with indisputable evidence to the contrary.
And the idea that socially unacceptable sexual preference can be 'cured' ... well people just need to be cured of that nonsense!
According to Scripture, Jesus was happy enough to sit and chat with rich and poor, old and young, soldiers, tax collectors, Samaritans, prostitutes, thieves and beggars ... the only ones He got angry with were hypocrites. I'm sure He'd be just as happy in the company of heterosexuals, pansexuals, asexuals, transgender, confused, uncertain, and all stops in between.
And so should we all.
Perhaps Jesus strange words to Nicodemus in John 3, about being born again of water and the Holy Spirit may refer to the immortality yogas, such as kundalini yoga, which deal with conserving the sexual energy and lifting it upward, opening spiritual centres (chakras) until a new immortal self-being is born.
He says to Nicodemus: you are a teacher of your people, but you don't know about this? It may refer not just to sexual energy but to the containment and channelling upward of all worldly desires.
It has been interpreted in many ways and is reflected in Christian baptism.
This is the taoist alchemy, probably also the root of alchemy in the west.
https://terebess.hu/zen/mesterek/Taoist-Yoga-Alchemy-and-Immortality.pdf
The above is a rewarding and complete explanation of taoist yoga. The PDF is too large to load here.
It is the same process referred to by Yogananda Paramahamsa, and has echoes in the 'inner teachings' of many faiths. It is the teaching behind the legend of Count Germain, etc.
I believe this may be the root origin of celibacy of priesthood ...
He says to Nicodemus: you are a teacher of your people, but you don't know about this? It may refer not just to sexual energy but to the containment and channelling upward of all worldly desires.
It has been interpreted in many ways and is reflected in Christian baptism.
This is the taoist alchemy, probably also the root of alchemy in the west.
https://terebess.hu/zen/mesterek/Taoist-Yoga-Alchemy-and-Immortality.pdf
The above is a rewarding and complete explanation of taoist yoga. The PDF is too large to load here.
It is the same process referred to by Yogananda Paramahamsa, and has echoes in the 'inner teachings' of many faiths. It is the teaching behind the legend of Count Germain, etc.
I believe this may be the root origin of celibacy of priesthood ...
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A Cup Of Tea
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RJM, quickly remove that post before Thomas sees it, he'll be so mad!
(I personally hold the opinion that similar rituals can arise separately from each other and that it is more likely than that rituals can be traced back to a common, historical, source)
(I personally hold the opinion that similar rituals can arise separately from each other and that it is more likely than that rituals can be traced back to a common, historical, source)
Seriously?